Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[15895]

Qatar is already a member of oneworld, and AA already has codeshare agreements in place with them so it isn't really like AA/US would have to do anything to for QR to fly here. It's pretty much given that AA would put their code on any QR flight that flights into one of their hubs.

Saying QR won't fly to CLT because they fly to IAD is like saying LH shouldn't fly to CLT because they serve ATL and IAD. QR doesn't have a codeshare with UA, so most of those pax to IAD are likely O/D.

I agree though, I think it is extremely unlikely that QR will ever fly to Charlotte. The demand just isn't there.

IMHO, if any of the big ME3 carriers serve Charlotte, it will be EK. Still highly unlikely though.

It is nothing like saying Lufthansa won't serve Charlotte because they serve Atlanta, Boston, Miami, DC, Houston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Las Vegas, NYC, Newark, Orlando, Pholadelphia, Phoenix, Portland, San Fran & Seattle.

Such a much, much larger market. It's incomparable

[ChessieCat]

^After doing a quick search of CLT-DOH you get connections at all of QR's existing US gateways: IAD/JFK/ORD/IAH which US/AA all serve nonstop from here.  In fact FRA is marketed as the cheapest option through US's A333 codeshare.  

 

QF will commence service this year to 3 additional US/AA hubs: PHL, MIA and DFW, so again the connecting options multiply.

 

IMHO the only possiblity of seeing QF service here is if they create a special codeshare flight with BA/AA that extends DOH-LHR service to CLT with the A319-100LR all business class (40pax).  LHR is 3482nm from CLT so it's well within the 319LR's 4500nm range:  

 

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/239791/qatar-airways-launches-premium-a319-flight-to-london-heathrow/

 

CLT-LHR-DOH could be a way for BA to feel out demand for a second daily CLT-LHR flight in lieu of starting their own 788 service.  The only issue is that the LHR-DOH leg departs at 21:55 GMT, so the CLT-LHR segment would have to be an early morning departure.  Don't know if Charlotte business travelers would fill the seats considering the current evening US A333 service is much more convenient and connections at LHR would be tight with an evening arrival...

Edited March 21, 2014 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

Since Charlotte is the 2nd largest banking center after NYC, does anyone think a 32 pax all-Business class A318 CLT-LCY service on BA could work?  

 

LCY is within the plane's range of 3,600 miles... The return leg would obviously have a refueling/immigration stop in Shannon like the current JFK-LCY service...

 

http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/about-ba/fleet-facts/airbus-318-100

Edited March 21, 2014 by ChessieCat

[LKN704]

^Not a chance.

LCYJFK exists because it is a highly yielding premium market, similar to JFKLAX or JFKSFO. BA doesn't even fly LCYIAD or LCYBOS, both of which are larger and higher-yielding markets than CLT. I learned the other day that the largest market from NC to Europe isn't even from CLT, its RDULHR, which I found surprising.

While CLT is the second largest banking center, the banking that is primarily done here deals with Aunt Sally's savings account in Topeka. Financial banking (which is where the higher yielding profit is, is still done in NYC).

[RALNATIVE]

I'm not convinced that Charlotte is #2 at this point. San Francisco would appear to be #2 these days.

[cltbwimob]

I'm not convinced that Charlotte is #2 at this point. San Francisco would appear to be #2 these days.

In terms of assets of banks headquartered in Charlotte, the city is still number 2, but in terms of financial prowess, I imagine there are quite a few more centers of power around the US that are ahead of Charlotte including SanFran, Chicago, and Atlanta. LKN is right, we are more of a center for traditional banking (I.e. deposits and loans) than the aforementioned cities which operate on a globalized financial scale which Charlotte has hardly ascertained. Those cities all have Federal Reserve bank HQs, and are home to major brokerage firms, exchanges, etc. in addition to standard banks such as Wells Fargo and Suntrust. In late 2009, Charlotte was one CEO change from the complete dismantling of all Charlotte's banking prowess.

With all that said, I agree with LKN704 that there is little chance we will see a CLT-LCY flight on a BA aircraft.

[Miesian Corners]

It is nothing like saying Lufthansa won't serve Charlotte because they serve Atlanta, Boston, Miami, DC, Houston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Las Vegas, NYC, Newark, Orlando, Pholadelphia, Phoenix, Portland, San Fran & Seattle.

Such a much, much larger market. It's incomparable

You're leaving out one very big caveat, though: the big Mideast three are growing by leaps and bounds and are adding many new destinations annually.  From a New York Times article In November 2013: The three airlines — Emirates, Etihad Airlines and Qatar Airways — all based in the same corner of the Persian Gulf, already operate more wide-body airplanes than all the American carriers put together. But last week, at the Dubai Air Show, they announced plans to buy 350 more long-range planes from Boeing and Airbus, with orders valued at a record $162 billion and deliveries extending well into the next decade. 

 

In addition to hundreds of new widebody aircraft, Doha's new $15 billion airport opens this summer, increasing capacity by 33 gates.  By all accounts, Etihad, Qatar, and Emirates want to rule the aviation world.  One of the three will fly here before the end of the decade--and it will most likely be Qatar.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Miesian Corners

[kickazzz2000]

You're leaving out one very big caveat, though: the big Mideast three are growing by leaps and bounds and are adding many new destinations annually.  From a New York Times article In November 2013: The three airlines — Emirates, Etihad Airlines and Qatar Airways — all based in the same corner of the Persian Gulf, already operate more wide-body airplanes than all the American carriers put together. But last week, at the Dubai Air Show, they announced plans to buy 350 more long-range planes from Boeing and Airbus, with orders valued at a record $162 billion and deliveries extending well into the next decade. 

 

In addition to hundreds of new widebody aircraft, Doha's new $15 billion airport opens this summer, increasing capacity by 33 gates.  By all accounts, Etihad, Qatar, and Emirates want to rule the aviation world.  One of the three will fly here before the end of the decade--and it will most likely be Qatar.

Right, and looking at CLT-DOH via connections doesn't give the full picture.  If CLT-BOM/DEL/BLR/MAD/KHI/AMD/CCU/HYD can help adequately fill up a plane in addition to CLT-DOH passengers or if BHM/CAE/GSP/TPA/JAX/MCO makes more sense connecting via CLT to DOH and onward to Asia, then CLT will get a flight.

[ChessieCat]

You're leaving out one very big caveat, though: the big Mideast three are growing by leaps and bounds and are adding many new destinations annually.  From a New York Times article In November 2013: The three airlines — Emirates, Etihad Airlines and Qatar Airways — all based in the same corner of the Persian Gulf, already operate more wide-body airplanes than all the American carriers put together. But last week, at the Dubai Air Show, they announced plans to buy 350 more long-range planes from Boeing and Airbus, with orders valued at a record $162 billion and deliveries extending well into the next decade. 

 

In addition to hundreds of new widebody aircraft, Doha's new $15 billion airport opens this summer, increasing capacity by 33 gates.  By all accounts, Etihad, Qatar, and Emirates want to rule the aviation world.  One of the three will fly here before the end of the decade--and it will most likely be Qatar.

Qatar will soon operate the largest 788 fleet in the world with 60 by the end of the decade, so I guess Miesian is right they need to put these to use. The 788 makes the most economic sense for a CLT-mideast flight, and neither EK (no 787 orders) nor EY (789/787-10 only) has ordered it.  

 

By year-end CLT and LAX will be the only remaining AA hubs that QR will not service.  It was a surprise QR even joined an alliance considering EK and EY have no interest in joining one, so it is a safe assumption to see QR adding CLT once they receive their full allotment of 788's.  QR also has ordered 80 A350's so maybe we could see A359's here during peak times (2022 World Cup).  

 

One last item, don't forget that Turkish Airlines wants to rule to aviation world too.  Despite being a Star Alliance member, Lufthansa has put them on notice that they are not happy with TK and the Big 3 mideast carriers "stealing" passengers from secondary German cities who would otherwise connect thru FRA or MUC.  THY has not ordered the 787 but has a huge order for 35 77W's, which is too big to fly the CLT-IST route IMHO.

 

What do people think about QR 788 DOH-CLT service by the end of the decade?

Edited March 25, 2014 by ChessieCat

[Temeteron]

Qatar will soon operate the largest 788 fleet in the world with 60 by the end of the decade, so I guess Miesian is right they need to put these to use. The 788 makes the most economic sense for a CLT-mideast flight, and neither EK (no 787 orders) nor EY (789/787-10 only) has ordered it.  

 

By year-end CLT and LAX will be the only remaining AA hubs that QR will not service.  It was a surprise QR even joined an alliance considering EK and EY have no interest in joining one, so it is a safe assumption to see QR adding CLT once they receive their full allotment of 788's.  QR also has ordered 80 A350's so maybe we could see A359's here during peak times (2022 World Cup).  

 

One last item, don't forget that Turkish Airlines wants to rule to aviation world too.  Despite being a Star Alliance member, Lufthansa has put them on notice that they are not happy with TK and the Big 3 mideast carriers "stealing" passengers from secondary German cities who would otherwise connect thru FRA or MUC.  THY has not ordered the 787 but has a huge order for 35 77W's, which is too big to fly the CLT-IST route IMHO.

 

What do people think about QR 788 DOH-CLT service by the end of the decade?

If we ever get a CLT-TAV direct flight I will be one happy man

[Miesian Corners]

Just got in from Frankfurt this afternoon.  Big changes down in the customs hall.  Under construction are two additional baggage carousels, 10 new passport control stations (with electronic readers), and 10 additional Global Entry kiosks.  CBP told me work should all be completed by April 15.

 

Customs and Immigration is still going to be a royal cluster during peak afternoon periods, but these items should help make it slightly more bearable.  

[ScottCLT]

If you travel internationally often...or even just once or twice a year, Global Entry is totally worth it. No matter what the line is like, you're through immigration and customs in 5 minutes or less.

[Miesian Corners]

If you travel internationally often...or even just once or twice a year, Global Entry is totally worth it. No matter what the line is like, you're through immigration and customs in 5 minutes or less.

Best $100 I've spent for travel.  As a bonus, it also give you access to TSA Precheck.

[LKN704]

Good to see that they are expanding the customs hall. Is this expansion public knowledge? This is the first I am hearing of additional carousels being constructed!

 

Anyway, when the current customs hall was built, the only flights that were inspected were basically LGW/FRA/MBJ/CUN so this expansion has been a long time coming. Will the customs hall be improved aesthetically in any way? I have always found the CBP inspection area at CLT to be rather dark and gloomy (or at least it was last year, especially by the baggage claim area) when compared to PHL and IAD, both of which are well-lit and have natural light throughout.

[Miesian Corners]

Aesthetic improvements at CLT customs?  Hahahahahahahahahahaha!  No,  All they're doing is creating passenger space from what were offices (those were moved to the third level of the East Terminal Expansion).  Same carpet.  Same low ceilings and lighting.  Same scarred walls.

[RVA2CLT]

Finally, it would seem sensibility has prevailed.. 

"Charlotte City Council approved $75,000 at its meeting last night as part of a $2 million contract that will create a continuous entrance road from Interstate 85 at the Little Rock Road exit all the way to the airport terminal at Charlotte-Douglas International Airport"

No time frame mentioned though.

Brief article here: Airport to build road to connect I-85 directly to airport terminal

[Miesian Corners]

Finally, it would seem sensibility has prevailed.. 

"Charlotte City Council approved $75,000 at its meeting last night as part of a $2 million contract that will create a continuous entrance road from Interstate 85 at the Little Rock Road exit all the way to the airport terminal at Charlotte-Douglas International Airport"

No time frame mentioned though.

Brief article here: Airport to build road to connect I-85 directly to airport terminal

I'm assuming it will be ASAP.  From the WBTV article: "Completing the design now will allow Aviation to solicit bids for and complete the northern portion construction to coincide with the opening of the southern portion"

[Miesian Corners]

A related note to Qatar Airways. The airline announced today it will fly 5X weekly from Edinburgh, Scotland to Doha using a 787.  Edinburgh has a population of 500,000 and is not a oneworld hub.

[uptownliving]

I'm assuming it will be ASAP.  From the WBTV article: "Completing the design now will allow Aviation to solicit bids for and complete the northern portion construction to coincide with the opening of the southern portion"

 

Yep the Airport is already accepting bids for construction of this road. Bids are due in next week. And then the following week they will name the winning bidder.

NCDOT was supposed to build this road for the past 40 years with no luck...glad the Charlotte Airport is picking up the ball on this one and getting the job done!

[ChessieCat]

A related note to Qatar Airways. The airline announced today it will fly 5X weekly from Edinburgh, Scotland to Doha using a 787.  Edinburgh has a population of 500,000 and is not a oneworld hub.

Yup, why connect through LHR when you can fly a nice new 788 to DOH and still collect BA avios. I wonder when BA will pull a Lufthansa on their alliance partner... 

Edited March 26, 2014 by ChessieCat

[LKN704]

To be fair, you can't really compare EDI and CLT. They are in totally different situations.

 

While EDI has a smaller population than CLT, EDI also serves as a national capital, and is a larger city on a "global scale" of things. It has the second largest economy in all of the UK, even ahead of Manchester and Birmingham. EDI is also much more closer to Qatar, and doesn't really tie up an aircraft like flying to the US would. Europeans are generally have a better sense of geography and are more worldly when it comes to traveling. I can guarantee you if I drove anywhere in Charlotte right now, and asked people where Doha was, or even where Qatar is, probably 1/2 of people I asked wouldn't have a clue.

 

I do think that one of the big ME3 carriers will eventually come to Charlotte though, and it isn't a matter of if but when.

[ChessieCat]

^Well neither Miesian nor I was comparing EDI to CLT, just pointing out how the ME3+TK want to dominate the world, LOL.  Plus their widebody order book will subsidize Boeing and Airbus for a generation...      

Edited March 26, 2014 by ChessieCat

[Miesian Corners]

To be fair, you can't really compare EDI and CLT. They are in totally different situations.

 

Why not?  Besides, in Charlotte's case the flight is not no much about Doha, it's about air connections at the Doha airport.  

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Any speculation about new (foreign) carriers coming to CLT in the wake of the merger?  I read through the M3 and TK discussion...  BA?  AB?  JL?

 

Thanks for the updates!

[Norm2]

All of these airport acronyms make my eyes and brain hurt. That is all.