Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[tozmervo]

time for Spaceport CLT!

[CLTaviation13]

^The center runway can easily handle FedEx's largest aircraft (777F) if they ever decided to fly it to CLT. MD11F's are the largest cargo aircraft that CLT routinely sees from FedEx.

UPS doesn't have ops at CLT. If they ever decided to fly it's largest aircraft (747-400F), the center runway can handle it.

Belly cargo in passenger jets has changed the cargo industry completely. That's the reason why neither FedEx nor UPS has ordered the A380F or 747-8F. Like passenger jets, there's little need for such large aircraft.

Special visitors like the Antonov An-124 and C-17 Globemaster (seen during 2012 convention) can operate from short runways and have visited CLT before:

So again to reiterate, a 12,000 foot runway will not be necessary for cargo ops at CLT.

Unless I've missed something. CLT doesn't see the FedEx MD11F, as much as I'd love to say we do get that... We just don't. We get the MD10F, which is still a beauty to see. Usually operated MEM-CLT-IND...vice versa sometimes, then FedEx also sends the A300. Then you have UPS... A300, although for the holiday rush we get a 752 and sometimes an A300 from PHL. Edited December 23, 2014 by JetBlueCLT

[dubone]

The length of the new runway is not the key point, it is the additional simultaneous landing and take off capacity.  Some master plans don't even have it in the longer format, but the more recent ones all have it.   If they can get that length added for little money, mostly paid with federal grants and have it justified for any and all of the reasons that it got added to the master plans by professionals in the first place, then so be it.   However, I think the primary justification is for the additional runway, built for less than most runways because of the land-moving component mostly done, and being closer to the terminal than the one out  by 485 which has a long taxi time.  

[MountainIslandLakeResident]

The FAA and CLT Douglas hosted a meeting open to the public at West Meck High and I spoke to members of both the FAA and CLT Douglas.

 

CLT Douglas is currently working on an airport capacity study and will present its findings to the City Council in Feb/Mar 2015 and there is a high likelihood it will show a need for the 4^th parallel runway.   It will most likely take 7 years to complete construction.

 

I discovered that one of the primary reasons for the 4^th parallel runway is to free up the space south of the terminal currently used by the diagonal runway so that it can be used by aircraft to taxi to and from gates.  Evidently space is tight around the terminals.

 

Interestingly this expansion comes as aircraft movements at CLT Douglas are set to decline because of what is happening at regional airlines that comprise more than 50% of traffic at CLT Douglas.  Regional airlines are phasing out 50 seat jets and replacing them with 76 seat jets which means smaller cities that connect through CLT Douglas will see less frequent air service.  This point is corroborated by the fact that if you look at the CLT business journal article even though passengers are up so far this year, aircraft movements are actually down 2%. 

 

As for the runways, it will be interesting to see the proposed usage of the 4 parallel runways. The 3 current parallel runways are far enough apart that they are completely independent of one another, but the proposed 4^th parallel runway is not independent of either the current center runway(18C/36C) or the runway near I-485(18R/36L).  This for example means that a plane departing on the proposed runway cannot do so until planes landing on either the current center runway(18C/36C) or the runway near I-485(18R/36L) have touched down.  The reason for this dependency is because if one of the arriving planes has to abort its landing at the same time a plane on a nearby runway is departing, then two planes would be flying right next to each other.

 

In other words, the 4^th parallel runway actually provides a very small increase in capacity from the existing runways.  Instead of an arriving plane having to both touchdown and then clear the runway completely so that a plane taking off from the same runway can depart the arriving plane only has to touch down so that a plane on the runway right next to it can depart. 

 

The runway near I-485 can only be used for arrivals which means that most likely it along with the current center runway would be used for arrivals and the new runway along with (18L/36R) would be used for departures.  This would seem to really complicate aircraft movements since a plane landing on the runway close to I-485 would have to negotiate planes taking off from the new runway as well as planes landing on the current center runway before arriving at the terminal.  I agree with ChessieCat that if this 4^th parallel runway is opened that the one near I-485 risks becoming a white elephant.

 

As for the length of the proposed runway, I agree that 10,000 ft should be adequate.  One issue I haven’t seen discussed is that making the new runway 12,000 ft would require relocating Hwy 160/Steele Creek Rd./West Blvd!

[MountainIslandLakeResident]

The length of the new runway is not the key point, it is the additional simultaneous landing and take off capacity.  Some master plans don't even have it in the longer format, but the more recent ones all have it.   If they can get that length added for little money, mostly paid with federal grants and have it justified for any and all of the reasons that it got added to the master plans by professionals in the first place, then so be it.   However, I think the primary justification is for the additional runway, built for less than most runways because of the land-moving component mostly done, and being closer to the terminal than the one out  by 485 which has a long taxi time.  

 

When planes land from the north, CLT has simultaneous takeoffs and landings today.  As soon as a plane landing on the diagonal touches down, planes departing from 18L and 18C can depart.  Once it has touched down, the plane landing on the diagonal can also go straight to the terminal without crossing any other runways. I wouldn't be surprised if 4 parallel runways are actually a reduction of capacity compared to today when planes are landing from the north.

 

When planes land from the south, the diagonal is not used so the 4th parallel runway would provide a small increase in capacity. 

[LKN704]

I thought that once the new control tower opens the runway near 485 will be able to be used for departures.

[ajfunder]

^That is correct, departures on the newest runway near 485 require the new control tower.

[MountainIslandLakeResident]

^^^^

Do either of you have links or documentation supporting the assertion that the new control tower will enable departures from 18R/36L?  

 

When I was at a meeting with members from CLT in Aug including Mr. Cagle I thought I heard them say 18R/36L was designed as an arrivals only runway.  Perhaps I misunderstood them, but I also can't find any information stating that 18R/36L could be used for departures once the new control tower is built.  It seems like such a major change would be included in the rationale for the new control tower, but there is no mention of it.

[ChessieCat]

The FAA and CLT Douglas hosted a meeting open to the public at West Meck High and I spoke to members of both the FAA and CLT Douglas.

 

CLT Douglas is currently working on an airport capacity study and will present its findings to the City Council in Feb/Mar 2015 and there is a high likelihood it will show a need for the 4^th parallel runway.   It will most likely take 7 years to complete construction.

 

I discovered that one of the primary reasons for the 4^th parallel runway is to free up the space south of the terminal currently used by the diagonal runway so that it can be used by aircraft to taxi to and from gates.  Evidently space is tight around the terminals.

 

Interestingly this expansion comes as aircraft movements at CLT Douglas are set to decline because of what is happening at regional airlines that comprise more than 50% of traffic at CLT Douglas.  Regional airlines are phasing out 50 seat jets and replacing them with 76 seat jets which means smaller cities that connect through CLT Douglas will see less frequent air service.  This point is corroborated by the fact that if you look at the CLT business journal article even though passengers are up so far this year, aircraft movements are actually down 2%. 

 

As for the runways, it will be interesting to see the proposed usage of the 4 parallel runways. The 3 current parallel runways are far enough apart that they are completely independent of one another, but the proposed 4^th parallel runway is not independent of either the current center runway(18C/36C) or the runway near I-485(18R/36L).  This for example means that a plane departing on the proposed runway cannot do so until planes landing on either the current center runway(18C/36C) or the runway near I-485(18R/36L) have touched down.  The reason for this dependency is because if one of the arriving planes has to abort its landing at the same time a plane on a nearby runway is departing, then two planes would be flying right next to each other.

 

In other words, the 4^th parallel runway actually provides a very small increase in capacity from the existing runways.  Instead of an arriving plane having to both touchdown and then clear the runway completely so that a plane taking off from the same runway can depart the arriving plane only has to touch down so that a plane on the runway right next to it can depart. 

 

The runway near I-485 can only be used for arrivals which means that most likely it along with the current center runway would be used for arrivals and the new runway along with (18L/36R) would be used for departures.  This would seem to really complicate aircraft movements since a plane landing on the runway close to I-485 would have to negotiate planes taking off from the new runway as well as planes landing on the current center runway before arriving at the terminal.  I agree with ChessieCat that if this 4^th parallel runway is opened that the one near I-485 risks becoming a white elephant.

 

As for the length of the proposed runway, I agree that 10,000 ft should be adequate.  One issue I haven’t seen discussed is that making the new runway 12,000 ft would require relocating Hwy 160/Steele Creek Rd./West Blvd!

 

 

Indeed, unless there are plans to build a midfield terminal then 18R/36L will become a white elephant because why should an aircraft have to cross two active runways just to take off?  I thought the ultimate master plan is to turn CLT into something like ATL with multiple terminals including a midfield terminal?

 

Also, the parallel runway works perfect for North-South ops because planes flying from the east coast can land on that runway while departures will take off from 18L like they do at present.

[kermit]

Interesting blog post over at the Meckdeck (I know, I know...). Apparently an US A330 was hit by a catering truck while it sat on the ramp at CLT -- the pressure hull was seriously damaged (check out the linked photos, they are pretty horrifying / interesting). I only mention this because there is speculation by the blog post author that the aircraft may not be repairable and this may impact the summer trans Atlantic schedule.

 

http://charlotte.johnlocke.org/blog/?p=23486

 

photos can be accessed directly here: http://imgur.com/a/ApjTk#vchPVGw

Edited January 9, 2015 by kermit

[Deleted.]

Interesting blog post over at the Meckdeck (I know, I know...). Apparently an US A330 was hit by a catering truck while it sat on the ramp at CLT -- the pressure hull was seriously damaged (check out the linked photos, they are pretty horrifying / interesting). I only mention this because there is speculation by the blog post author that the aircraft may not be repairable and this may impact the summer trans Atlantic schedule.

http://charlotte.johnlocke.org/blog/?p=23486

photos can be accessed directly here: http://imgur.com/a/ApjTk#vchPVGw

IGNORE EVERYTHING SAID BY MECKDECK!!!!

Yes an US A330 was hit by a CLEANING truck, but it happened in December. The aircraft is repairable (though it will cost around $30 million) and will be in service by May 14, when A330 demand is at its peak.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Piedmont767

[kermit]

^Thanks for the clarification.

[ScottCLT]

Interesting blog post over at the Meckdeck (I know, I know...). Apparently an US A330 was hit by a catering truck while it sat on the ramp at CLT -- the pressure hull was seriously damaged (check out the linked photos, they are pretty horrifying / interesting). I only mention this because there is speculation by the blog post author that the aircraft may not be repairable and this may impact the summer trans Atlantic schedule.

 

http://charlotte.johnlocke.org/blog/?p=23486

 

photos can be accessed directly here: http://imgur.com/a/ApjTk#vchPVGw

Wow - those photos are pretty amazing. That thing really ripped through the plane!!!

[navigator319]

When something like this happens does the driver of that truck get fired?  Is there insurance that pays for the 30 million?

[tozmervo]

like a good neighbor, the mechanics union is thereee...

[CltFlyer]

Have an inside source.  They are having to write off the plane as totaled.  1 and a half years old.  $30 million worth of damage.

 

http://imgur.com/a/ApjTk

 

Pictures above.

Edited January 9, 2015 by CltFlyer

[ah59396]

Can't help but feel bad for the poor bugger driving that truck. That's got to be the "oh crap" moment of a lifetime.

[MilZ]

Can't help but feel bad for the poor bugger driving that truck. That's got to be the "oh crap" moment of a lifetime.

I backed into a mailbox when I had my learner's permit. You move on from these things.

[15895]

I backed into a mailbox when I had my learner's permit. You move on from these things.

You caused 30 million dollars worth of damages to a mailbox?

[MilZ]

Haha bad attempt at humor on my part

[Deleted.]

Definitely no resumption of flights to São Paulo any time soon, unless AA wants to try the route again with no Charlotte-based companies using it.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Piedmont767

[Miesian Corners]

AA President Scott Kirby said yesterday at an employee meeting at the US Airways Training Center that CLT is the combined carrier's (US and AA) most profitable hub.  

[ssh214]

AA President Scott Kirby said yesterday at an employee meeting at the US Airways Training Center that CLT is the combined carrier's (US and AA) most profitable hub.  

 

Well that's great to hear!

[15895]

I wish someone would post that CLT is most profitable hub on A.net

[LKN704]

^^^Imagine the responses that the MIA fans would have, they would simply loose it.