Norfolk History

[Padman]

Well. the "Save the Three" flyer came in the mail today, regarding the soon to be leveled buildings in the footprint of the Hilton convention center hotel project. It's a bit strident, and probably too little too late, but it's a good effort from people who really care about the architectural heritage of the city. If nothing else, I hope it causes people to look very closely at the design of the new hotel, and perhaps seriously examine ways to blend the old in with the new. The facade of the Furniture Hall would be especially nice to incorporate. However, the other two don't seem as special to me. I'll take a closer look. I guess I feel more strongly that what I have seen so far of the Hilton doesn't look like something worth keeping after 50 years or so.

[vdogg]

Well. the "Save the Three" flyer came in the mail today, regarding the soon to be leveled buildings in the footprint of the Hilton convention center hotel project. It's a bit strident, and probably too little too late, but it's a good effort from people who really care about the architectural heritage of the city. If nothing else, I hope it causes people to look very closely at the design of the new hotel, and perhaps seriously examine ways to blend the old in with the new. The facade of the Furniture Hall would be especially nice to incorporate. However, the other two don't seem as special to me. I'll take a closer look. I guess I feel more strongly that what I have seen so far of the Hilton doesn't look like something worth keeping after 50 years or so.

Those buildings days are extremely numbered. More power to them if they can force a change but I doubt their efforts will be fruitful. The date for demolition has already come and passed and I have a feeling we'll be hearing the rumblings very shortly. They will probably tear them down with no more fanfare than an announcement of the closing of lot 31 on the Norfolk city website. I'd expect a pilot article once the damage is already done if past demolitions are an indication.

[levarforever]

I think that the historic architecture in Norfolk is much of what separates it from other cities in the 757. That is not to say that other cities in this region don't have historic buildings, I'm just saying Norfolk seems to stand out in that regard more so than Portsmouth, for instance. Our historic architecture makes up most our identity, so the more that dissappears, the less distinct we (meaning the city of Norfolk) will be from VA Beach, Chesapeake, or Hampton. That is already the long held belief anyway, that this region is monotonous.

If Norfolk is going to truly be a historic city, than one would expect there to be physical evidence of that. I remember someone mentioning how much this area is in love with suburban life. I think that is so true, to the point that we don't really respect a historic urban appeal as much as Northern cities like Philadelphia or Washington D.C. This is not to mention how backwards we've been on other issues. There was a time when "Hampton Roads" was still struggling to establish an official name for its self, something that should have been settled about 300 years ago...but I digress.

This is not about Norfolk trying to be like the aforementioned cities. This is about Norfolk living up to its potential and being able to balance an appreciation for its past as well as the future.

[metalman]

My wife and I just (this morning) came back from a week long vacation to London. Talk about history! WOW! There are buildings that date back almost a thousand years in that city, let alone many that are 200, 300, 400 years old. Imagine if London developers, for the sake of "progress" destroyed everything older that 80, 100 years to build something new. They would have nothing to show for what an amazing history they have had. Granted, Norfolk was founded by William the Conquerer, or previously sieged and settled upon by the expanding Roman Empire. But Norfolk does a relatively shorter, but important and great history. And if no one steps up to preserved the living faces of its history, it will be lost and forgotten for no one to remember.

Speaking of almost forgotten history. I had the amazing opportunity to see the Rosetta Stone, the real thing, at the British Museum. Which, if you don't know it is the stone tablet that was discovered that broke the code and made it possible to dechiper the lost Egyptian hieroglyphic language. It was a decree written in three languages. Hieroglyphic Egytian, the more proper Eyptian text at the time, and ancient Greek. And it was because of the understanding of ancient Greek and the old Egyptian text that they were able to make educated guess and begin to translate the heiroglyphs. The year 396 was the last known written old Egyptian heirglyphic text. For about 1,600 years Egyptian heiroglyphs went unwritten and unread. Imagine if the Rosetta Stone wasn't found. What we know of ancient Egypt and the stories, laws, geniology, and overall historcal account would not be known.

By the way, I have some killer and beautiful pics of the London skyline and overall pics of the city, building, and environs that I want to post on another thread to show you guys. I have to get it in order first.

Later,

Metalman

[skylinefan]

My wife and I just (this morning) came back from a week long vacation to London. Talk about history! WOW! There are buildings that date back almost a thousand years in that city, let alone many that are 200, 300, 400 years old. Imagine if London developers, for the sake of "progress" destroyed everything older that 80, 100 years to build something new. They would have nothing to show for what an amazing history they have had. Granted, Norfolk was founded by William the Conquerer, or previously sieged and settled upon by the expanding Roman Empire. But Norfolk does a relatively shorter, but important and great history. And if no one steps up to preserved the living faces of its history, it will be lost and forgotten for no one to remember.

Speaking of almost forgotten history. I had the amazing opportunity to see the Rosetta Stone, the real thing, at the British Museum. Which, if you don't know it is the stone tablet that was discovered that broke the code and made it possible to dechiper the lost Egyptian hieroglyphic language. It was a decree written in three languages. Hieroglyphic Egytian, the more proper Eyptian text at the time, and ancient Greek. And it was because of the understanding of ancient Greek and the old Egyptian text that they were able to make educated guess and begin to translate the heiroglyphs. The year 396 was the last known written old Egyptian heirglyphic text. For about 1,600 years Egyptian heiroglyphs went unwritten and unread. Imagine if the Rosetta Stone wasn't found. What we know of ancient Egypt and the stories, laws, geniology, and overall historcal account would not be known.

By the way, I have some killer and beautiful pics of the London skyline and overall pics of the city, building, and environs that I want to post on another thread to show you guys. I have to get it in order first.

Later,

Metalman

Metalman you could not have said more accurately! Norfolk indeed is very important to the history of this country. Each of these buildings sort of invoke the Norfolk of yesteryear. Of a bustling Downtown made up of sailors, seafaring men, and traders. With so much new construction going on the city more and more is looking like Miami, hardly a model for a 325 year old city to look like.

[Padman]

I think there's a dilemma here. There isn't much of the old Norfolk left downtown for a number of reasons, some of which elude me. But I am aware that Norfolk was really just a medium sized town before the Navy arrived here around the time of the First World War. So there wasn't very much to preserve to begin with. Secondly, we were not an affluent area, so there were few really grand construction projects downtown. So it wasn't readily apparent that many of the older structures were really significant.

I see our history as encompassing two eras. In the first, Norfolk was a town, while Richmond, DC and Atlanta were fairly large cities with lots of imposing old structures. The second era really happened around WWII, when Norfolk emerged as a true city. With a compact downtown, space was needed for such post-war projects as the new jail, library. the Maritime Tower, Plaza I, Virginia National Bank, Seaboard Citizens Bank, The Golden Triangle Hotel, the new Norfolk General Hospital, and eventually Scope and Chysler Hall. Some of these structures have already met the wrecking ball, so age isn't the only criterion of worth.

We do need to do a better job of preserving our past, but we have to be somewhat selective. This Hilton hotel is so nondescript that I think it could accommodate one or two of the old buildings somehow. It seems too late to do that now, but we could do more to anticipate other problems before they arise. It sure looks as if Granby Street and its side streets could be the logical extension of the business district to the North. What buildings there must be saved? Which ones can we do without?

[vaceltic]

My wife and I just (this morning) came back from a week long vacation to London. Talk about history! WOW! There are buildings that date back almost a thousand years in that city, let alone many that are 200, 300, 400 years old. Imagine if London developers, for the sake of "progress" destroyed everything older that 80, 100 years to build something new. They would have nothing to show for what an amazing history they have had. Granted, Norfolk was founded by William the Conquerer, or previously sieged and settled upon by the expanding Roman Empire. But Norfolk does a relatively shorter, but important and great history. And if no one steps up to preserved the living faces of its history, it will be lost and forgotten for no one to remember.

Speaking of almost forgotten history. I had the amazing opportunity to see the Rosetta Stone, the real thing, at the British Museum. Which, if you don't know it is the stone tablet that was discovered that broke the code and made it possible to dechiper the lost Egyptian hieroglyphic language. It was a decree written in three languages. Hieroglyphic Egytian, the more proper Eyptian text at the time, and ancient Greek. And it was because of the understanding of ancient Greek and the old Egyptian text that they were able to make educated guess and begin to translate the heiroglyphs. The year 396 was the last known written old Egyptian heirglyphic text. For about 1,600 years Egyptian heiroglyphs went unwritten and unread. Imagine if the Rosetta Stone wasn't found. What we know of ancient Egypt and the stories, laws, geniology, and overall historcal account would not be known.

By the way, I have some killer and beautiful pics of the London skyline and overall pics of the city, building, and environs that I want to post on another thread to show you guys. I have to get it in order first.

Later,

Metalman

Somewhat off topic but we should trade stories Metalman! I recently visited England with a class this July. Even a great city like London has redevelopment issues though. The entire Canary Wharf district there used to be a massive neighborhood (greater than Norfolk's Ghent) which was razed to create the new financial district of London. They just have an enormous number of historic buildings that its difficult to realize what has been lost there. Even still, lots of places have made way to the wrecking ball in the name of progress, even in London.

[tombarnes]

I concur with the sentiments above that Norfolk has lost too much history to be throwing away what little of it remains downtown. Is it going to be worth the loss of three more buildings? It's sad to think that the Preservation Alliance has been so marginalized that they are thought of as a bunch of crazy old blue haired ladies with nothing better to do than save buildings. I've said this time and again....Norfolk needs to stop and evaluate carefully before giving itself away. Preserving the facades of these buildings would not, in my mind, have been a deal-breaker. Developers and large corporations will often grant many concessions in order to enter a market. I still have trouble believing that Norfolk was so desperate to get this project that it (literally) gave away the store. Do I wasnt to see the project built? I suppose I do. Was it worth losing three more downtown buildings? Probably not.

[gosscj]

I see our history as encompassing two eras. In the first, Norfolk was a town, while Richmond, DC and Atlanta were fairly large cities with lots of imposing old structures. The second era really happened around WWII, when Norfolk emerged as a true city. With a compact downtown, space was needed for such post-war projects as the new jail, library. the Maritime Tower, Plaza I, Virginia National Bank, Seaboard Citizens Bank, The Golden Triangle Hotel, the new Norfolk General Hospital, and eventually Scope and Chysler Hall. Some of these structures have already met the wrecking ball, so age isn't the only criterion of worth.

There is a third period, actually, and this is the one in which Norfolk's influence on national history is most notable - that is the period beginning roughly in the middle of the eighteenth century and lasting until 1776, when the city was leveled in rebellion. At the time Norfolk was the only real city in a territory whose political power in America was matched only by Massachusetts. I believe (and have written at length if anyone is interested) that the burning of Norfolk did more to convert rebellious, discontented Virginians into true revolutionaries than any other event or document, including Common Sense (which was published shortly after the burning of Norfolk and was not widely read in Virginia). And when Virginia signed on to the revolution virtually wholesale - unlike in the other colonies, loyalism was extremely rare in Virginia after Norfolk was destroyed - it provided the credibility needed to enlist the other colonies to a cause that had previously been a primarily urban uprising that did not take separation from Great Britain as its aim. The burning of Norfolk was the crucial moment for Virginia in the early revolution, and as such its effects were felt far beyond the colony's borders.

Only problem is, there wasn't much left afterwards.

[Sky06]

I see our history as encompassing two eras. In the first, Norfolk was a town, while Richmond, DC and Atlanta were fairly large cities with lots of imposing old structures. The second era really happened around WWII, when Norfolk emerged as a true city.

Absolutely not true. Norfolk was a booming city in the 30's and even in the 20's. Most of it beautiful architecture (buildings that any city including NYC would be envious of) were built in the 1st 2 decades of the 1900s. Richmond couldn't compare. Sure DC and Atalnta have always been bigger, but just take a look at these pre-WWII and some pre-WWI pics (courtesy Sargeant Room at Kirn):

Granby

Granby 2

Granby 3

Christmas in Norfolk

Main Street

Main Street 2

Main Street 3

Main 4

Hotel

Norfolk Rail Terminal

YMCA

Monticello Hotel

Lorraine Hotel

Algonquin Hotel

Market Square

I could go on and on.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Sky06

[tombarnes]

Hotel

Wasn't that actually the old NBC- National Bank of Commerce building? I absolutely agree with you that there was an impressive display of pre-war architecture in Norfolk- much of which was casually destroyed in the name of urban renewal.

[Padman]

Look up the population figures for Norfolk and for our region in the 30s and you might not see it as a large city at all. It had about 116,000 in 1920 and about 130,000 by 1930. There were no big suburban rings in those days, so that was about it, except for Portsmouth, which was regarded by many as a very nice suburb to Norfolk in those days. Norfolk became the largest city in the state in about 1955.

NBC was National Bank of Commerce, that and Royster were by far the most prominent buildings in a very modest skyline. During the mid-60s, NBC was nearly ruined architecturally when a modern facade was grafted on. In those days, Norfolk desperately wanted a "modern" look. We suffered low self esteem over the tawdry Navy boom years of wartime, so older buildings, both good and bad, were regarded as symbols of decay and decline. But it was the poor and the minorities who were famously shuffled about like pawns. It's most interesting to me that the fate of old buildings usually isn't about the buildings at all, but mostly about shifting social values.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Padman

[levarforever]

Look up the population figures for Norfolk and for our region in the 30s and you might not see it as a large city at all. It had about 116,000 in 1920 and about 130,000 by 1930. There were no big suburban rings in those days, so that was about it, except for Portsmouth, which was regarded by many as a very nice suburb to Norfolk in those days. Norfolk became the largest city in the state in about 1955.

NBC was National Bank of Commerce, that and Royster were by far the most prominent buildings in a very modest skyline. During the mid-60s, NBC was nearly ruined architecturally when a modern facade was grafted on. In those days, Norfolk desperately wanted a "modern" look. We suffered low self esteem over the tawdry Navy boom years of wartime, so older buildings, both good and bad, were regarded as symbols of decay and decline. But it was the poor and the minorities who were famously shuffled about like pawns. It's most interesting to me that the fate of old buildings usually isn't about the buildings at all, but mostly about shifting social values.

"In those days, Norfolk desperately wanted a "modern" look. We suffered low self esteem over the tawdry Navy boom years of wartime, so older buildings, both good and bad, were regarded as symbols of decay and decline."

Hi Padman. Great post! It's very enlightening. I wonder if your statement above sheds light on why Norfolk, even today, seems so quick to tear down old buildings, even ones in fairly good shape. If thats the case, I think on some level it makes the city of Norfolk look like it is sort of ignorant of the rest of urban America. I'm not saying that is true, but to me, it gives that impression. Someone needs to explain to the city council that "old" does not equal "decay". I've always felt that much of a city's identity exists because of it's antique architecture. So the more you start to erase that, the more that city begin's to loose a sense of self. Old myths die hard in Norfolk, apparently. Not to get off the subject too much, but just look at the whole hooplah over bringing tattoo parlors back. Frankly, oppositions like that make us seem uncultured and narrow-minded.

Edited August 4, 2007 by levarforever

[Padman]

I guess the transient nature of a lot of our population is a factor too, although I don't really know. It's hard to care deeply about some buildings if you only see them for a couple of years and then move on. It seems like we do have very active preservationists, but they may be few in number and maybe a little bit too antagonistic for their own good (when dealing with the city).

[first2sign]

Can anyone identify and locate this building with the carving above the door?

[mikeas]

Can anyone identify and locate this building with the carving above the door?

I believe it is right next to the future granby tower.

[Padman]

Yes, it's next to Granby Tower. Will it still stand? It shares features with the fed courthouse building. It's interesting but I find it a little ominous. Maybe it could become a columbarium for certain city council members?

[vdogg]

Maybe it could become a columbarium for certain city council members?

Damnit Padman. There you go making me look up words again.

[first2sign]

Right on the location. Its on York Street, right behind Granby Tower. Did you know the bank printed their own money?

[levarforever]

Here's a VA Pilot article concerning Norfolk's recent demolition of historic buildings. It should spark an interesting conversation here.

Credibility demolished along with Norfolk storefront

Edited October 15, 2007 by levarforever

[urbanvb]

What a crying shame that such a wonderful home go way of the wrecking ball. It just pains me to no end to see such a wonderful home torn down. If ONLY someone could have moved the house before this travesty happened.

story

[tombarnes]

The loss of the Guild House was particularly unnecessary. The planned addition to the church is most unattractive, whatever its supposed architectural pedigree. I'm curious as to whether or not the reconstruction of the Guild House will actually take place. Something tells me it won't. The money will mysteriously run out (probably something having to do with cost overruns on the new building) and nothing will be built. Norfolk must wake up and grasp the reality that it's inventory of historic buildings is rapidly diminishing.

[Padman]

I have to disagree. I think that the Guild Hall, while attractive, is unremarkable historically and merely competent architecturally. Barton Myers addition makes a strong statement while blending modern design with some traditional and some neo-traditional neighbors. Let's see how it shapes up before we wring our hands too much over this loss. I think we're gaining some good design on this one. But I do appreciate the sentiment to better preserve our local architectural heritage.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

What a crying shame that such a wonderful home go way of the wrecking ball. It just pains me to no end to see such a wonderful home torn down. If ONLY someone could have moved the house before this travesty happened.

story

What's so wonderful about this particular house? Yes, I know it is old.

There are hundreds very similar all over Ghent. There will still be hundreds very similar with no known plans to tear any of them down.

And the church that owns it has raised the money to build an addition to their church to better serve the community and voluntarily offered to build a replica across the street.

I salute Christ & St. Luke's for this carefully considered effort.

[urbanvb]

I do love old homes. Something about the character of them I guess.