Other Metro Area Projects

[sunshine]

Flea World master plan.

The design is looking promising but it is so isolated.

 

[HankStrong]

Honestly, do you want a flea market in a non-isolated part of town?

They are fun to go to on occasion, but this isn't a hipster farmer's market we're talking about.  This is a wholly different and unique beast you're talking about.

[I am Reality]

9 hours ago, aent said:

Look, I'm the one who brought this current set of disagreement (admittedly on purpose) and he obviously disagrees with me on this very issue; but I think I am Reality has been doing much better being more reasonable, and if we ignore the bit of the (IMHO) crazy past I don't think you or anyone would be saying that. I am Reality did seem to spark some activity on the forum, making some people voice and share what they love around Orlando, in his own way, and did bring up a number of valid points. Hearing and accepting other people that have different opinions is important to spuring creativity, and making sure that our solutions are done in such a way that the vast majority of people will accept them and be happy with them, I feel like a yuge portion of society is missing that simple fact right now.

I am honestly confused by the anger of others.  

I did not personally attack or criticize any other person here.  

I did not take any political stand whatsoever.  

And if anyone paid any attention to what I was saying, I was complimenting Orlando.  The city is large enough and has matured enough that it should have commuter rail.  I was making the point that it shouldn't have taken political wizardry from Mica to get a rail system (as evidenced by the dozens of other cities with commuter rail.)  

It's a pretty innocuous, non-controversial position to take. 

It's certainly no reason to be unhinged over.

I am still waiting to hear from JFW,  You were so quick to attack me.   I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about SunRail.  For real. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by I am Reality

[JFW657]

Looking at the height and number of buildings shown on that site plan, I have to wonder who they expect to fill them up and how many decades it would take.

Seven 18 story office buildings, three 8 story parking garages,  a dozen residential  buildings between 8 and 12 stories...

All way up there in the middle of more or less nowhere?

Seems rather ambitious.

 

 

[JFW657]

8 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I am honestly confused by the anger of others.  

I did not personally attack or criticize any other person here.  

I did not take any political stand whatsoever.  

And if anyone paid any attention to what I was saying, I was complimenting Orlando.  The city is large enough and has matured enough that it should have commuter rail.  I was making the point that it shouldn't have taken political wizardry from Mica to get a rail system (as evidenced by the dozens of other cities with commuter rail.)  

It's a pretty innocuous, non-controversial position to take. 

It's certainly no reason to be unhinged over.

I am still waiting to hear from JFW,  You were so quick to attack me.   I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about SunRail.  For real. 

Nobody is "angry" at you and I didn't "attack" you. I merely pointed out what I see as your somewhat contentious posting style. Making hyperbolic claims about others being angry and attacking you being an example of it.

[OrlFlaUsa]

I fail to understand how the Flea Market plan is being considered isolated? 

Edited June 20, 2018 by OrlFlaUsa
Didn't make sense

[I am Reality]

5 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Nobody is "angry" at you and I didn't "attack" you. I merely pointed out what I see as your somewhat contentious posting style. Making hyperbolic claims about others being angry and attacking you being an example of it.

Hyperbolic?

"Not much thinking required."   I am sure that was just a poor choice of words.

I will offer again to meet.  You obviously think my position (about John Mica, of all things) is unreasonable. Let's talk about it. 

[JFW657]

6 minutes ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

I fail to understand how the Flea Market plan is being considered isolated? 

I personally wouldn't use the term "isolated", but it seems like the size and scope of the project as shown on the site plan, is somewhat out of scale to the surrounding development. To me, anyway.

[jrs2]

14 minutes ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

I fail to understand how the Flea Market plan is being considered isolated? 

I think what HankStrong meant was do you want an actual flea market across the street from where you live; I don't think it was a slight against the redevelopment plan.

[OrlFlaUsa]

Ok gotcha. The actual area is surrounded by development meaning lots of people live there and the area is drastically underserved by nicer retail and restaurants so when the plan was first announced I was excited. 

[jrs2]

16 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Hyperbolic?

"Not much thinking required."   I am sure that was just a poor choice of words.

I will offer again to meet.  You obviously think my position (about John Mica, of all things) is unreasonable. Let's talk about it. 

Okay.  this is the crux of my view on this:  I've said it before but you don't agree that Orlando isn't as big as you and/or others make it out to be.  I've said it is city population at the core that dictates this, not spread out sprawl in outlying counties or parts of the host county.  I've also made comparisons to other cities whose metro area was substantially smaller than Orlando, yet their cores were way more dense and developed- because their city populations were larger and have always been larger than Orlando's city population.  You disagreed with this.  That's fine.

Based on that, my stance is that Orlando was fortunate to get a rail line in light of the above.  And getting it was due in part to major efforts by John Mica.  And I gave other factors, such as the fact that Orlando is in Florida (the place where people retire to and vacation in), not up north, that it's newer, and that it's always played second, third, and fourth fiddle in this state.  Also the fact that the LRT line was nixed 19 years ago.  With all that, we got Sunrail over places like Tampa, Jacksonville, etc.  Yet you stick to your guns that Orlando somehow deserves CRT just based on the numbers.  Yet at the same time you acknowledge that politicians play a key role in this sort of thing.  i.e., Mica played a key role, but Orlando would've gotten it anyway.   No way no how in this state under these circumstances.

I have also stated that the Sunrail plan went part and parcel with CSX's freight modernization plans.  On that note, it could be argued that a nutless monkey could've gotten it approved in Mica's stead.  

Beyond that, I personally do not take issue with you.  And by "that" I mean that I believe you are ignoring facts just to win an argument.  And that's fine too.  I've done that before but then took a step back and reassessed my point of view.

I type too much.

Damnit, Spenser1058, will you post something already!  I feel like I'm directly or indirectly getting the cold shoulder like a cheap date who said he or she wouldn't put out.

20 minutes ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

Ok gotcha. The actual area is surrounded by development meaning lots of people live there and the area is drastically underserved by nicer retail and restaurants so when the plan was first announced I was excited. 

Yep.  Lake Mary Blvd is right up the road, and Ronald Reagan (427) borders the back of the property.  Great access.

The only problem is that the jail is across the street, so you have potentially another Park Central situation.

[JFW657]

8 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Hyperbolic?

"Not much thinking required."   I am sure that was just a poor choice of words.

I will offer again to meet.  You obviously think my position (about John Mica, of all things) is unreasonable. Let's talk about it. 

No, I meant what I said. I get the impression that you make proclamations based on a cut and dried, black and white, either/or point of view without considering the myriad grey areas, then kind of talk down to everyone in expressing them.

Re: Mica, I don't really care what anyone thinks of him either way. I'm no fan of his, but neither will I discount or disparage what he did to get commuter rail here. Was the system perfect out of the box? No, of course not. Duh. But given the political and fiscal realities he faced, utilizing the existing CSX tracks was literally the best we could hope for.

The cost of building a new line from scratch including all the property that would have had to be acquired etc, would have been so astronomical that it would never have been approved.

OTOH, what we got represents a foot in the door. Now that something is in place, it can be improved upon in coming years with people's minds and attitudes not so averse to or afraid of it.

As for the offer of meeting for a beer, I don't drink and I have other obligations that take up my time, so thanks all the same.

[sunshine]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

Honestly, do you want a flea market in a non-isolated part of town?

They are fun to go to on occasion, but this isn't a hipster farmer's market we're talking about.  This is a wholly different and unique beast you're talking about.

It is not a Flea MArket...it is the plot of land where Flew World used to sit by Sanford. By isolated, I mean it is very urban development that far out from Downtown Sanford and Downtown Lake Mary.

The entire redevelopment plan can partically be a "downtown" for a small city in suburb Orlando.

 

[I am Reality]

5 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Okay.  this is the crux of my view on this:  I've said it before but you don't agree that Orlando isn't as big as you and/or others make it out to be.  I've said it is city population at the core that dictates this, not spread out sprawl in outlying counties or parts of the host county.  I've also made comparisons to other cities whose metro area was substantially smaller than Orlando, yet their cores were way more dense and developed- because their city populations were larger and have always been larger than Orlando's city population.  You disagreed with this.  That's fine.

Based on that, my stance is that Orlando was fortunate to get a rail line in light of the above.  And getting it was due in part to major efforts by John Mica.  And I gave other factors, such as the fact that Orlando is in Florida (the place where people retire to and vacation in), not up north, that it's newer, and that it's always played second, third, and fourth fiddle in this state.  Also the fact that the LRT line was nixed 19 years ago.  With all that, we got Sunrail over places like Tampa, Jacksonville, etc.  Yet you stick to your guns that Orlando somehow deserves CRT just based on the numbers.  Yet at the same time you acknowledge that politicians play a key role in this sort of thing.  i.e., Mica played a key role, but Orlando would've gotten it anyway.   No way no how in this state under these circumstances.

I have also stated that the Sunrail plan went part and parcel with CSX's freight modernization plans.  On that note, it could be argued that a nutless monkey could've gotten it approved in Mica's stead.  

Beyond that, I personally do not take issue with you.  And by "that" I mean that I believe you are ignoring facts just to win an argument.  And that's fine too.  I've done that before but then took a step back and reassessed my point of view.

I type too much.

Damnit, Spenser1058, will you post something already!  I feel like I'm directly or indirectly getting the cold shoulder like a cheap date who said he or she wouldn't put out.

Yep.  Lake Mary Blvd is right up the road, and Ronald Reagan (427) borders the back of the property.  Great access.

The only problem is that the jail is across the street, so you have potentially another Park Central situation.

Literally....this is your post:

"I've said . . ."

"I've said . . ."

"I've also made comparisons . . ."

"My stance . . . "

"And I gave other factors . . . "

"I have also stated . . . "

I understand your position.  I just disagree.  There's nothing more to it.  There is no confusion at all about your position.   And there is no anger directed at you.  I disagree!   For every point you made, I can list something that you have overlooked.  Fine.  Disagreements are like that sometimes. 

There is no reason for JFW for question my intellect. 

If you disagree with something I say, feel free to disregard it.  It's one person's opinion.  

Someone posted a hoax magazine-cover about climate change.  Did I criticize that person? 

People post all kinds of stuff on here I don't agree with or care about.  

 

[I am Reality]

14 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

No, I meant what I said. I get the impression that you make proclamations based on a cut and dried, black and white, either/or point of view without considering the myriad grey areas, then kind of talk down to everyone in expressing them.

Re: Mica, I don't really care what anyone thinks of him either way. I'm no fan of his, but neither will I discount or disparage what he did to get commuter rail here. Was the system perfect out of the box? No, of course not. Duh. But given the political and fiscal realities he faced, utilizing the existing CSX tracks was literally the best we could hope for.

The cost of building a new line from scratch including all the property that would have had to be acquired etc, would have been so astronomical that it would never have been approved.

OTOH, what we got represents a foot in the door. Now that something is in place, it can be improved upon in coming years with people's minds and attitudes not so averse to or afraid of it.

As for the offer of meeting for a beer, I don't drink and I have other obligations that take up my time, so thanks all the same.

Shame you have no respect for opposing views.  I made my "proclamations" based on facts and my own opinions.  There is NO reason to disparage them.  

The offer for coffee or lunch or whatever stands.  You wouldn't question my intellect if we sat and talked.  I would hear you out, and you would hear me out.  It would be very civil.   People in the real world don't hide behind their computers.  

Edited June 20, 2018 by I am Reality

[jrs2]

7 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Literally....this is your post:

"I've said . . ."

"I've said . . ."

"I've also made comparisons . . ."

"My stance . . . "

"And I gave other factors . . . "

"I have also stated . . . "

I understand your position.  I just disagree.  There's nothing more to it.  There is no confusion at all about your position.   And there is no anger directed at you.  I disagree!   For every point you made, I can list something that you have overlooked.  Fine.  Disagreements are like that sometimes. 

There is no reason for JFW for question my intellect. 

If you disagree with something I say, feel free to disregard it.  It's one person's opinion.  

Someone posted a hoax magazine-cover about climate change.  Did I criticize that person? 

People post all kinds of stuff on here I don't agree with or care about.  

 

fair enough.  if someone only read your response to my post, then my post would sound like I was making proclamations. 

Look, I was merely restating prior discussions and statements that "I've" actually "said."  Is that not PC to state? 

What's wrong with stating that "I've made comparisons" if I actually made comparisons?  Isn't that the scientific method; doing experiments or analyzing data?  And if I've done that, is it offensive to state that I did? 

Look, it's a two way street.  If you disagree with my statement that Orlando sin't that big comparatively and that city population dictates downtown development vs MSA numbers, then do the same comparisons that I did.  Don't just disagree for the sake of bolstering your stance.  My opinion about Sunrail's likelihood stems from this.

[JFW657]

1 minute ago, I am Reality said:

Shame you have no respect for opposing views.  I made my "proclamations" based on facts and my own opinions.  There is NO reason to disparage them.  

The offer for coffee or lunch or whatever stands.  You wouldn't question my intellect if we sat and talked.  I would hear you out, and I would hear you out.   People in the real world don't hide behind their computers.  

I have nothing BUT respect for opposing views, but not when someone tries to club others over the head with them. Your views on Mica's efforts and the end result of them are IMO, overly simplified and neglect to take a lot of obvious factors into account.

BTW, I have not questioned your intellect nor have I disparaged your opinions. Merely the way you express them. You are a bit heavy handed.

IMO.

[I am Reality]

17 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I have nothing BUT respect for opposing views, but not when someone tries to club others over the head with them. Your views on Mica's efforts and the end result of them are IMO, overly simplified and neglect to take a lot of obvious factors into account.

BTW, I have not questioned your intellect nor have I disparaged your opinions. Merely the way you express them. You are a bit heavy handed.

IMO.

"club others over the head"?

"heavy-handed"?

What I actually said:   "I understand your argument. I simply disagree."   and "You and I simply disagree about Sun Rail.  I don't see it as a useful, practical, or appealing option.  You do and that is perfectly fine." 

You are being hyperbolic.

And disrespectful of my views.

When you man up and want to talk, let me know.  I'll be happy having a civilized conversation with you one-on-one.  

Edited June 20, 2018 by I am Reality

[HankStrong]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

I personally wouldn't use the term "isolated", but it seems like the size and scope of the project as shown on the site plan, is somewhat out of scale to the surrounding development. To me, anyway.

Correct.

51 minutes ago, sunshine said:

It is not a Flea MArket...it is the plot of land where Flew World used to sit by Sanford. By isolated, I mean it is very urban development that far out from Downtown Sanford and Downtown Lake Mary.

The entire redevelopment plan can partically be a "downtown" for a small city in suburb Orlando.

 

But it WAS a flea market, so the location is based on what it was built as.  That was my point on that.  That's why it was where it was in the first place.

[HankStrong]

18 hours ago, I am Reality said:

I find everyone's defensiveness about my SunRail comments interesting.   I've never seen anything positive about SunRail on here before.  

I understand your argument.  I just disagree. 

As the train guy here, I've said plenty of positive things about SunRail.  Is it still a crappy-ish system that needs a ton of improvement? YES!  My comment is and always has been that you have to start with Leg 1 before you get 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

[HankStrong]

Somewhere in this thread (and I don't care to research it a second time) is a post I made comparing SunRail to the NYC subway system.

My general point was that the famed and amazingly functional (I've been on it several times myself, so I know the dysfunctional part, too) NYC subway system started off in way worse shape than the SunRail system.  These things take time and ridership.  They take money and investments.  Transit systems don't just pop up overnight unless you are Middle eastern and throw billions of dollars of oil money at them.  I only mention that because it seems like Dubai might get an insanely complicated system up and running in a matter of years, planning to active transit.

[orange87]

4 hours ago, sunshine said:

Flea World master plan.

The design is looking promising but it is so isolated.

 

I think this is great. This area will be pretty nice if/when this is built with Seminole State College nearby too. Sanford is starting to go slightly vertical and get some density. They also have another project planned in downtown Sanford near the water called Heritage Park.

Edited June 20, 2018 by orange87

[JFW657]

The rendering looks more to the proper scale for that area than what the site plan describes. 

[sunshine]

The rendering is Heritage Park in downtown Sanford. The site plans is the "Flea World"

[orange87]

56 minutes ago, sunshine said:

The rendering is Heritage Park in downtown Sanford. The site plans is the "Flea World"

Did you even read my post? I was talking about both.