Charlotte's Urban Lowe's Home Improvement

[Neo]

The people of Dilworth did have their chance to voice the opinion and after dozens of meetings they came to an agreement. I'm certainly not in the middle of this development as much as altrvr or Conformity, but it really isn't fair to compare a Lowe's to an asphalt plant.

[Miesian Corners]

Can you really equate an industrial use to an urban mixed-use one? No one wants to live next to an asphalt plant, but people all over the world live with retail directly below them or beside them.

Besides, even the city staff had problems with the asphalt plant in Optimist Park. New greenway, redevelopment of Belmont, NoDa, and First Ward all bringing about a significant increase to the tax base of an area that has been depressed for decades. A heavy industrial use didn't fit the city's plan for the area, so it did something about it.

[Charlotte_native]

The less urban streets of Dilworth are going to suffer with this. I used to live on Tremont Avenue. The traffic on that cut-through street is already horrible. It is consistent and goes day and night. These little side streets were meant to disperse residential traffic. As the city has grown around it the needs have changed and I think it is necessary for them to change. But adding a Lowes in the midst will completely change the surrounding blocks no matter how you paint it.

All the delivery restrictions in the world won't change how we, as shoppers, will get there. We will find the best and quickest route, and for anyone East of South Blvd, that is going to be through the neighborhood streets. People will find the easiest route in time. Go to a Home Depot or Lowes anywhere in town right now and see how much traffic there is, go again Saturday morning. Expecting all cars to come to this store via 277 and South Blvd is expecting way too much. This will be the closest Lowes for what, 10 miles? It will be beyond busy.

I am not saying I am opposed to this project, but I am very glad I don't live in that end of the neighborhood any longer. Olmstead Park, Springdale Ave, McDonald, Tremont, and Ideal Way are about to be a lot different next year. If you don't already live there or never have, all the traffic studies in the world won't give you the reality of the current traffic issues.

The neighborhood did come to an agreement, but only after it was obvious that this project was coming no matter what.

Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles...all cities with big box retail uses attached to residential. Anchors include Home Depot, Home Expo, Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart (to be fair, the Wal Mart development is in Asia). I have a ULI Urban Land article that talks about this concept (which has been successful). I'll see if I can link it.

Are these adjoining residential single family neighborhoods or in urban cores? I'm really just asking -- I don't know...

[monsoon]

Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles...all cities with big box retail uses attached to residential. Anchors include Home Depot, Home Expo, Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart (to be fair, the Wal Mart development is in Asia). I have a ULI Urban Land article that talks about this concept (which has been successful). I'll see if I can link it.

I don't think there is any question there are specialized urban versions of these stores and that is originally what I thought that was going in to the Dilworth location. But I have been informed this is a full scale Lowes that has been shoehorned into a very tight environment. If this is indeed the case, and they sell the same merchandise that is found in a suburban Lowes then the impact on the surrounding area is going to be excessive. Again, a drive to any Lowes in this area and watch what goes on in the parking lot. This is a much different situation than a department store in Tokyo.

[Charlotte_native]

I don't think there is any question there are specialized urban versions of these stores and that is originally what I thought that was going in to the Dilworth location. But I have been informed this is a full scale Lowes that has been shoehorned into a very tight environment. If this is indeed the case, and they sell the same merchandise that is found in a suburban Lowes then the impact on the surrounding area is going to be excessive. Again, a drive to any Lowes in this area and watch what goes on in the parking lot. This is a much different situation than a department store in Tokyo.

They also pitched many locations between South Blvd and 77 near the stadium to Lowes. Not quite sure why they were so insistant on this site rather than one that would not have so drastically impacted a neighborhood.

[dubone]

I seem to remember a developer planning urban townhouses abutting that asphalt plant in Optimist Park. It was a shame that didn't get built. It would have been such a boost to the area, and would have helped support the planned light rail line nearby, the mill restoration project a block away, and Tuscan's urban residential cluster. Plus, Optimist Park is such a nice place to live anyway, an asphalt plant would have enhanced the quality of life. Besides, I don't know why anyone was worried about the extreme carcinogens in the emissions. We all know people in Optimist Park have a short life span anyway from gun violence.

The parallels are clear between a petro-chemical based industrial facility and a warehouse selling light bulbs, wood, and washing machines. In fact, I'm planning on redoing my living room floors with asphalt this spring. I've heard they are very durable.

[lptk]

The complaints against the two where the same. Hundreds of diesel trucks/day isn't exactly going to make for a smell of roses. This really ought to be some sort of smaller urban oriented Lowes.

This, for me at least, is offset by the many fewer auto/truck miles driven by people who would otherwise drive down to the outer burbs to go to a Lowe's (myself included). Some have said that traffic to the store will come through the 'hood, rather than via South Blvd. That's probably very true. But truck traffic to this store will come from South Blvd, which is already a major artery.

Those trucks will come from South and go a very short distance on Iverson to the entrance. So worries of major truck traffic/exhaust/noise is a red herring in my opinion (unless you live opposite the entrance to the store, in which case it will be a real issue). There is so much more diesel exhaust coming from South Blvd, less than a block away and that hasn't caused a mass revolt.

For me it comes down to the fact that large retailers are a fact of life in our current economy. Here is one making an effort (profit-driven of course), to work with a neighborhood. The hood will get the benefit of convenience to this store, and much less impact than a typical big-box. would have.

And anyway, the alternative is... ...what exactly?

->Keep inner ring residents driving out to the burbs to get lumber/appliances/garden items?

->Shop only at smaller stores? I love Blackhawk and will continue to shop there. But their selection just can't match Lowe's (and I don't think it should - that's not how they compete).

->Put the store in a relatively less affluent neighborhood?

->?

When I consider all the options, I'm happy that Lowe's sees some value in making an investment in a more urban model, and I look forward to shopping there to support that vision. I hope others do as well.

[dubone]

For the asphalt plant, the truck traffic was a silly add-on complaint to the underlying concern of the proven 1/4 - 1/2 mile cancer cluster radius that research found in many other places. It would have put city hall, the arena under construction, and Bank of America within range of serious pollution and fumes.

The trucks for the asphalt plant would have been a minute percentage compared to the thousands of trucks that go to the Norfolk-Southern intermodal facility that is in Optimist Park.

Anyway, I still don't agree with the premise that the trucks at the Lowe's will be a problem for the residents. The trucks will come only between 7a and 9p. They will also not be driving in front of any residences, and there are physical barriers between the homes and the truck route.

It's not like it is going to be quiet, but there are very few places that are quiet during the day in town. There are noisy garbage trucks, lawn mowers, busy thoroughfares nearby, train whistles, drunk homeless guys screaming at God, etc. If someone is sensitive to noise, then I'd recommend moving out to the suburbs with everbody else. Chances are, that person would be sensitive to the countless other sacrifices that urban living demands.

[lptk]

... train whistles, drunk homeless guys screaming at God...

Two reasons I live in the city, lol.

[Charlotte_native]

This, for me at least, is offset by the many fewer auto/truck miles driven by people who would otherwise drive down to the outer burbs to go to a Lowe's (myself included).

For me it comes down to the fact that large retailers are a fact of life in our current economy. Here is one making an effort (profit-driven of course), to work with a neighborhood. The hood will get the benefit of convenience to this store

And anyway, the alternative is... ...what exactly?

->Keep inner ring residents driving out to the burbs to get lumber/appliances/garden items?

->Shop only at smaller stores?

There is a new Home Depot 2 miles down South Blvd at Woodlawn. We, in Dilworth, no longer have to drive to the 'burbs to visit a retailer like this and also won't when the Home Depot is completed at The Met. Most think this came as a result of those two stores and Lowe's not wanting to be left out of the market. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't come, but the arguement that we in the rings need to go to the 'burbs is dated.

The traffic (consumers) that comes to both of those stores does not and will not cut through residential neighborhoods. IMO they are much better located for the impact they had/have.

[cooperdawg]

I admit, some people will be turned off from living next to the store, but they only need to find 75 or so that don't mind.

Make it 74, won't bother me none, I love the location.

[revitalize]

There is a new Home Depot 2 miles down South Blvd at Woodlawn. We, in Dilworth, no longer have to drive to the 'burbs to visit a retailer like this and also won't when the Home Depot is completed at The Met. Most think this came as a result of those two stores and Lowe's not wanting to be left out of the market. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't come, but the arguement that we in the rings need to go to the 'burbs is dated.

The traffic (consumers) that comes to both of those stores does not and will not cut through residential neighborhoods. IMO they are much better located for the impact they had/have.

just a note...from everything i've seen so far, Midtown is to include a Home Depot "home decor" store - which I've assumed this to mean it will be an EXPO, which is a Home-Depot-owned store that has tons of lamps, curtains, etc. Very cool store, no doubt, but not the typical Home Depot in case that is what you may have been expecting............ can anyone else confirm this?

So it seems that Lowe's will still corner most of the downtown market on home improvement type stuff.

[dubone]

Yes, Midtown will be "EXPO" not Home Depot. But C_N's point is still the same, there is a home depot only 2-3 miles away from this site.

But I still think it is reasonable that Lowe's wanted to build a single store to compete with the Home Depot at Wendover and the Home Depot at Woodlawn.

[monsoon]

Their old location on Walnut Ave would have been much better than sticking it straight in the middle of Dilworth if they wanted a full sized location in the city. Their old building is still sitting there abandoned though most likely they don't own it anymore. Nobody would be bothered by the traffic and noise at that location and it might give an economic boost to that corner of Charlotte.

I don't think the residents of Dilworth have any idea for whats in store for them. That is a perfect neighborhood for cut throughs and I expect there will be a lot of it. Some sort of new urbanist shopping village would have been a much better option.

[dubone]

Most of the site is now technically within South End's boundary. And even if South End wasn't created, it still wouldn't be in the middle of Dilworth. In fact, on another thread, it was mentioned that not long ago this was not accepted, and was know as South Dilworth. Back when there were porn shops near by. As for new urbanism, that is what this is. It assumes that in an urban world, lots of people buy stuff. Quaint mom and pop stores are for little towns not populated urban centers.

[Miesian Corners]

Sorry. Can't link the ULI article due to log-in issues.

And CN, you are correct that most of those developments are in more urban areas. There is a new Target in Minneapolis (their HQ) that's in an established single-family area. I'll see if I can locate any info on it. I do know it's not on their new LRT line, so transit doesn't come into play.

I told LandDesign, Lowe's and DCDA that removing one house and one business on Iverson Way and simply connect Euclid from Iverson to Ideal Way could possibly be a way to ease traffic via the light at Ideal/Remount. Never heard a word on that one.

[Conformity]

There is a new Home Depot 2 miles down South Blvd at Woodlawn. We, in Dilworth, no longer have to drive to the 'burbs to visit a retailer like this and also won't when the Home Depot is completed at The Met. Most think this came as a result of those two stores and Lowe's not wanting to be left out of the market. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't come, but the arguement that we in the rings need to go to the 'burbs is dated.

The traffic (consumers) that comes to both of those stores does not and will not cut through residential neighborhoods. IMO they are much better located for the impact they had/have.

You wake up one morning. That morning you do not need a 2X4. You wake up the next morning. That morning you do not need a 2X4. However, on this second morning a Lowe's just opened down the street. Because the Lowes has just opened, do you now need a 2x4? I think we can agree, you do not. Here I make the point that the opening of the store will not drive entirely car trips. The trips are already happening. You either need a light bulb or you don't. The new store has nothing to do with it. Now recognize that for approx. 100% of us....even the urban ones, we will need to drive to get the bulb. Local traffic will use local streets and, for the record, they are already there making there way to the thoroughfares....they are going to get a light bulb, remember....they just happen to be getting it quicker and with fewer miles travelled. This light bulb sale does not generate a unique trip. Someone was going to sell this person a light bulb. Lowe's sells one more. Home Depot sells one less. New stores do not create increased market demand or capacity. Witness the greyfields pandemic as evidence of this fact (big boxes going dark because others are better positioned....the better positioned store gets a better share of the unchanged available volume and the store with a last generation location goes dark).

So...no unique trips.....

As to the local grid:

Anyone travelling more than several blocks will be on thoroughfares exclusively. Stop signs, 4 ways, dog walkers on street parking and 25 mile an hour speed limits do not make for an efficient journey anywhere and if you're traveling further than a few blocks, you are going to jump out to a thoroughfare. The folks who need only travel a few blocks will use the grid; but they live in Dilworth and were already on them anyway on their way to South Boulevard to head down to the Home Depot (because, remember, the advent of the Lowe's did not create the trip....the light bulb did). Folks who are not immediately proximate to the store are on thoroughfares and have no incentive to leave the thoroughfares they are on because there really are no efficient alternates through the neighbhorhood. This store will drive cars to this location, but that is no way similar to driving unique trips (which few things do), will reduce VMTs and will not result in Dilworth being overrun by some inordinate percentage of the traffic.

Despite outward appearances, I offer this post IMHO.

[Conformity]

just a note...from everything i've seen so far, Midtown is to include a Home Depot "home decor" store - which I've assumed this to mean it will be an EXPO, which is a Home-Depot-owned store that has tons of lamps, curtains, etc. Very cool store, no doubt, but not the typical Home Depot in case that is what you may have been expecting............ can anyone else confirm this?

So it seems that Lowe's will still corner most of the downtown market on home improvement type stuff.

My read on this is that the EXPO model has not been a runaway success for Home Depot. I've heard varying reports. Could be "Bride of EXPO"....meaning some new approach to that concept, or a conventional store, but it does not appear to be EXPO in its current format from other markets (file to "rumor mill")

[Conformity]

Sorry. Can't link the ULI article due to log-in issues.

And CN, you are correct that most of those developments are in more urban areas. There is a new Target in Minneapolis (their HQ) that's in an established single-family area. I'll see if I can locate any info on it. I do know it's not on their new LRT line, so transit doesn't come into play.

I told LandDesign, Lowe's and DCDA that removing one house and one business on Iverson Way and simply connect Euclid from Iverson to Ideal Way could possibly be a way to ease traffic via the light at Ideal/Remount. Never heard a word on that one.

Hmmmmmm........

[monsoon]

What about the person that lives in Myers Park, or South Park, or off West Blvd that is now going to drive to Lowes in Dilworth to get that light bulb? That is traffic that wasn't in that neighborhood before. If I lived in any of those areas, I would cut through the neighborhoods to get to that Lowes because you can skip around the stop lights. What about the eontractors are now going to bring their trucks into Dilworth to make their purchases that would not have before. What about the person in First Ward who would have gotten on the freeway to go to Lowes and now instead will come down S. Tryon & S. Blvd?

New stores do not create increased market demand or capacity. - Huh?

[Conformity]

Most of the site is now technically within South End's boundary. And even if South End wasn't created, it still wouldn't be in the middle of Dilworth. In fact, on another thread, it was mentioned that not long ago this was not accepted, and was know as South Dilworth. Back when there were porn shops near by. As for new urbanism, that is what this is. It assumes that in an urban world, lots of people buy stuff. Quaint mom and pop stores are for little towns not populated urban centers.

This not Dilworth.....not that that makes the area any less meaningful, but just as a technicality....not Dilworth. Credit Meca and Crosland with stretching the boundaries of Dilworth when they teamed to build Olmstead Park and subsequently rained radio spots down on an unsuspecting population for months proclaiming that their development was in Dilworth. Edward Dilworth Latta and his 4 Cs company really has the exclusive on Dilworth branding rights and he didn't build anywhere near the site. Certainly, homes by the Southside Land Company, who started platting land in 1952 in the area in question, are not Dilworth homes. Brand spillover.

[atlrvr]

Thank you....Southside...that was the name I've been trying to remember.....I also enjoy that Forest Park (the area between Salem and Princeton) is now Myers Park.....pure stroke of genius of some Realtors' parts.

Why would someone from the real Myers Park not want to take East to South? It would be very inconvenient for anyone to use Worthington or Tremont. Ideal Way would probably be the only street to see an appreciable increase, but it is already considered a collector.

[lptk]

.....I also enjoy that Forest Park (the area between Salem and Princeton) is now Myers Park.....pure stroke of genius of some Realtors' parts.

So true. My last house was in Forest Park. We tried to use that name while we lived there and generally got blank stares - even from some people in the neighborhood.

When we sold, our realtor listed it as Myers Park. We asked about changing it and he looked at us like we had two heads.

[Charlotte_native]

Anyone travelling more than several blocks will be on thoroughfares exclusively. Stop signs, 4 ways, dog walkers on street parking and 25 mile an hour speed limits do not make for an efficient journey anywhere and if you're traveling further than a few blocks, you are going to jump out to a thoroughfare. The folks who need only travel a few blocks will use the grid; but they live in Dilworth and were already on them anyway on their way to South Boulevard to head down to the Home Depot (because, remember, the advent of the Lowe's did not create the trip....the light bulb did). Folks who are not immediately proximate to the store are on thoroughfares and have no incentive to leave the thoroughfares they are on because there really are no efficient alternates through the neighbhorhood. This store will drive cars to this location, but that is no way similar to driving unique trips (which few things do), will reduce VMTs and will not result in Dilworth being overrun by some inordinate percentage of the traffic.

Despite outward appearances, I offer this post IMHO.

This sounds great, but I lived on Tremont. People, not from the neighborhood, already use this as a cut through. I can guess as well as anyone why, but the reality is they DO. Perhaps it is to avoid traffic lights, backed up traffic, construction on South Blvd (though this was happening before the current lanes being blocked). People cut through neighborhoods. It is a fact. If this store generates higher traffic counts (from folks that no longer drive to Woodlawn but drive to Iverson Way -- not a unique trip, but a trip none-the-less) the traffic will be new and more than in the past. I am not bashing this project, just pointing out that claiming no internal neighborhood traffic increase is just not valid. Cut through traffic is already high through there WITHOUT this store.

If traffic continues to increase and remains heavy on South Blvd like it already IS -- efficient alternatives: From Myers Park, any neighborhood up and down Park Road, anyone east of South Blvd, come down Park, left on Ideal Way, right on Springdale, sneak up on Lowes from behind OR continue on Park, changes to Tremont, left on Euclid, sneak up on Lowes. To say people don't avoid thoroughfares seems to ignore that fact that they certainly use cut-throughs. If they don't why have four way stops, traffic "calming" humps, actual barriers, been put in place throughout the city to stop it?

Again, not saying Lowes should not be here -- just that the traffic, as a former resident of the area, is about to increase quite a bit.

[Charlotte_native]

Why would someone from the real Myers Park not want to take East to South? It would be very inconvenient for anyone to use Worthington or Tremont. Ideal Way would probably be the only street to see an appreciable increase, but it is already considered a collector.

To avoid the current back-ups at Latta, the East/South intersection, the narrow curving part of South near Tremont. Cutting through on Princeton then through Sedgefield is more direct than coming out of Myers Park heading north to East Blvd then West, then south again on South Blvd. That is almost a full circle. Anyone traveling north on Park Road, if they know the streets, will know that cutting through Dilworth (or whatever the official older name of the subdivision was in that section) will be quicker than shooting past the store to their left and circling back around on thoroughfares.