Traffic, Freeways and Road Construction

[MZT]

I'll stand with the generalization, thank you- since I've driven in just about every major city in the west.

But it's true a gridded plan eventually meets with something on the terrain that messes it up. Phoenix and Albuqeurque spread out neatly until they meet mountains and ravines.

Fresno is a pretty clean grid, except that it has a diagonal downtown like Charlotte, and the Golden state Freeway running diagonally through the whole city. Since not every road has a bridge over it, you do have to "learn the town".

Getting the topic back to Charlotte, it seems like the hardest path is east-to-west. Other than 51, Albemarle, and to some degree Indepenence (I think of it as a southwesterly road) there isn't any good east to west flow.

[ChiefJoJo]

exit 245! i wonder if that is confirmation that it will be part of the i30 corridor... following us74, the wendover exit is ~245 miles from the tennessee border.

Everyone relax. No I-30 for Uptown. Exit numbers are often used for portions of highways that happen to have interchanges as well as signals and driveways. That is just the milepost of the highway, which is the standard method for identifying interchanges.

Independence is an expressway, with hundreds of driveways (but no signals) and some interchanges mixed in. Interstate standards dictate a very high speed (65 mph)/high mobility corridor with full access control. Independence will not perform this function.

If I-30 was ever built across NC in Charlotte, it would be multiplexed on I-485, a la the Greensboro Loop/Bypass (which will carry I-40 and 85), as you have a 4-6 lane freeway that is already built! Think about it. It would be very foolish to spend millions--if not billions--of dollars just to try to upgrade an old facility though DT Clt.

FYI: This is the current vision plan for highways in the Metrolina Region.

[dubone]

thanks for the reply, chief, and your point is well taken. this is just the hypothetical routing of a hypothetical corridor. i'll concede that there is no hope that my preferred routing would actually be done by the ncdot anyway.

but pretending for a minute that 485 didn't exist, do you have any more info or opinions on whether the feds would allow a "future" designation on existing expressways and freeways without requiring the upgrades to be imminent? Or is the era of interstate routing through population centers over?

I know that NCDOT's strategic vision does not even include independence as a freeway, let alone an interstate... but i happen to think that would be different if there were a meaningful interstate corridor to plug into. Again, my theory is that independence is only getting upgraded to an expressway because of lack of imagination of what this corridor should/could be.

[ChiefJoJo]

but pretending for a minute that 485 didn't exist, do you have any more info or opinions on whether the feds would allow a "future" designation on existing expressways and freeways without requiring the upgrades to be imminent? Or is the era of interstate routing through population centers over?

Sure thing, just look at "Future I-73" and Future I-74"... but in terms of running an interstate through an urban center such as Clt? I doubt it. Environmental concerns (not just natural, but human--ie, displaced residents, noise, etc.) and tremendous cost would likely prohibit doing anything like that these days. I think it's safe to say that there will be no new urban freeways built anytime soon--that is unless they are viaducts or tunnels. In fact, many areas want to eliminate them (Boston's "Big Dig").

I know that NCDOT's strategic vision does not even include independence as a freeway, let alone an interstate... but i happen to think that would be different if there were a meaningful interstate corridor to plug into. Again, my theory is that independence is only getting upgraded to an expressway because of lack of imagination of what this corridor should/could be.

Independence is an expressway because a freeway would totally eliminate every business along the side of Independence, causing tremendous negative economic impact, not to mention it would cost even more than the $50-60 mil/mile (and rising) highway is now... and you think it's taken a while to build what's there now... whew! How about a $1+ billion freeway that takes 40 years to build just to get out to 485.

Everyone would love it if Independence was an 8-lane freeway all the way, but we have to work with what we have in a balanced way with the surroundings that are in place. IMO, it will be a very successful transit corridor.

[dubone]

i just think the goal for independence should be freeway, although i'm highly supportive of leaving it an expressway in near term (next 25 years). there should be longer term strategy to slowly phase out all the drive ways and to slowly and incrementally compile rights of way for a service street.

Frankly, most of the businesses have huge parking lots, and a service street of sorts could be built for much of the area just by painting lines and organizing the parking lots a little differently.

i just have a hard time thinking that that the "jersey-freeway"/"expressway" design, a higher speed/high volume corridor with hundreds of driveway points is a good final design for this corridor. it is soooo stressful to drive on it, because one minute everyone in your lane is going 50 or 60mph and then next everyone is screeching to a halt for some shmo turning into a driveway. In so many cases, the driveways could be eliminated with just a little planning.

Perhaps it should just be a city planning initiative where driveway points are elminated through the zoning process or something...

the ironic thing is that being downtown, i'm often closer to shops on independence boulevard, but i often avoid those because of the difficulty in entering or exiting a business from the boulevard. if there were a service road, i'd actually be MORE likely to go there...

is elimination of driveways the only thing to make it qualify as a freeway (not interstate)?

[ChiefJoJo]

I understand what you're saying--a very long term goal (25+ years), or vision for Independence being a freeway. I can see that happening potentially, but with as much money that's being poured into it now with a relatively small return (on a per mile basis), it's going to take a while if it ever does, unless a toll is instituted on the corridor. The current MUMPO LRTP shows Independence being improved to an expwy to 485 by 2030 as it is, which is ~25 years--and that's optimistic IMO.

is elimination of driveways the only thing to make it qualify as a freeway (not interstate)?

Basically. Engineers would have to look at the road and check the design speed to set the posted speed at either 55 or 65 i would guess. There is a set of design criteria that must be met for freeway (full access control) standards, which includes shoulder widths, speed limit, access, sight distance, lane widths, etc. i'd guess with the heavy traffic on it, even if Independence were a freeway with no driveways, it would be posted at only 55 or maybe 60mph.

[dubone]

I just wouldn't want to be an out-of-towner attempting to make that turn onto Albemarle for the first time.

why are people so unable to handle unconventional road design around here? i think that this quote is just funny... as if out-of-towners from most cities in this country would even have the slightest bit of confusion about a left exit.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...ws/12437273.htm

that anecdote at the bottom of this article is morbid, but kind of funny.

"You can grow another boy in 16 years," she said, "but it would take 150 years to grow a tree like that."

[orulz]

why are people so unable to handle unconventional road design around here?  i think that this quote is just funny... as if out-of-towners from most cities in this country would even have the slightest bit of confusion about a left exit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But if (as the article says) there is no advanced warning in the form of signs, then it would be confusing to anyone. The general assumption is that an exit will be on the right unless there is a sign. They should have signs saying "Albemarle Rd/ EXIT LEFT" posted every half mile starting from two miles before the exit.

[dubone]

But if (as the article says) there is no advanced warning in the form of signs, then it would be confusing to anyone. The general assumption is that an exit will be on the right unless there is a sign. They should have signs saying "Albemarle Rd/ EXIT LEFT" posted every half mile starting from two miles before the exit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good point. i think the signs or painted warnings on the lane will help.

[Miesian Corners]

I was under the impression that left exits are a big NO everywhere in the road-building world. I was pretty surprised when I learned that the Albemarle exit would be on the left. In a city as conservative as Charlotte, you'd think that anything on the left would be frowned upon.

[A2]

MB I think when you moved my post it disappeared, so here goes:

Where are the lights on the Interstates in CLT???

(I have seen poor towns in other states like West Virginia have more lighting on their roads than we do)

There are None on I-77N. 485, or the inner loop (277). What gives???

Where are my tax dollars going??? The entire strip between Burlington and Greensboro has lights (and this is between the cities, not in their limits) , but in CLT tthe 8-10 lane Interstate 77 is pitch black. I almost had a wreck on Saturday night, because some guy forgot to turn on his lights. I am PISSED off by this.

I know budgets are tight, but NC could definately help out by replacing some freggin' light bulbs. I pay taxes and so do most on this board. Those taxes are not being evenly distributed to CLT at all. All I want is some lights. I am not asking for another highway expansion, JUST LIGHTS !!!

I have been to cities half the size of Charlotte and they have adequate lighting. What gives???

We want to call ourselves a world-class city, yet out major Interstates are Pitch Black !!!

I have been to other Metros around NC and SC and while not perfect, most seem to have a much better lighting situation than that of CLT. Who do I need to call or write to get this addressed? (Chief Jo Jo are you out there???)

[monsoon]

MB I think when you moved my post it disappeared, so here goes:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Opps, haha. well its somewhere on UP. Must have made a typo

[A2]

no problemo. I thought the language in it might have been to harsh, so maybe it got discarded. I tried to ease off on the frustration a bit, but the lighting issue really has me pissed. BTW, if you live in North CLT, you should be more mad than me. You would be on 77 more, or at least that is what I would assume.

A2

[ilektronik]

i agree with you A2, the lighting does suck on 77N. however with the new mall all lit up at night, it keeps harris bright (which is good because i can see all the cops hiding looking for dwi's)

[A2]

i agree with you A2, the lighting does suck on 77N. however with the new mall all lit up at night, it keeps harris bright (which is good because i can see all the cops hiding looking for dwi's)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a theory about lighting around the center city too. My thoughts are that they turn the lights off on 77 and 277 so the city lights are more impressive looking at night.

I still think that someone has to get this fixed. This is ridiculous. When I go to other cities, I know I am in the city because the Highways get wider and the lighting accompanies it. In CLT you don't know what's going on.

A2

[ChiefJoJo]

I have been to cities half the size of Charlotte and they have adequate lighting. What gives???

this has been addressed before, please click here The fix will cost about $2 mil and Rep. Jim Black has indicated he will find the money.

[A2]

Is this for all of the Intersates (ie 85, 485, and 77)??? If so, that figure seems small. But whatever it takes just git r' dun

My concern is why did they not include lighting in the I-77 construction process. They could have incorporated it into the widening instead of having to go back and toggle with an already tight budget. I mean to me the state is doing thing "bass-ackwards". But that is me. I am not blaming one person, but it seems that most of the problems could be fixed easily.

A2

[ChiefJoJo]

I was addressing 277. Here's my best guess for the larger question: clickhere.

[A2]

I was addressing 277.  Here's my best guess for the larger question: clickhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THX Cheif Jo Jo

A2

[ChiefJoJo]

I was under the impression that left exits are a big NO everywhere in the road-building world. I was pretty surprised when I learned that the Albemarle exit would be on the left. In a city as conservative as Charlotte, you'd think that anything on the left would be frowned upon.

Seriously though, you're right. Almost all exits are on the right, but in this case, i think due to the potential costs and impacts o the area, it was probably much easier to do a left exit than to construct a huge flyover ramp from the right on outbound 74, then flying back over to the left towards Albemarle.

flyover ramps = major $$$ + greater impacts

[cinco]

Seriously though, you're right.

[CanesFan27]

Independence Blvd getting numbered exits? I was getting off the Eastway interchange and going under Eastway, the loop going north on Eastway it says Exit 245.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No this is not for an I-30 extenstion. - which is nothing more than one guys dream that's probably not even written on paper.

The Exit 245 is based on US 74's mileage from the NC/TN border. It increases as you go east...decreases as you go west. In the 1990's NC started to place exit numbers on newly built (and resigned) freeways that were either a US Highway or NC State Route.

[JunktionFET]

I have been to other Metros around NC and SC and while not perfect, most seem to have a much better lighting situation than that of CLT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The entire Triangle has no freeway lighting at all. Charlotte is a supernova by comparison.

[dubone]

there was reference in the observer over the weekend about how lights on the new section of independence freeway are on order and will be put up soon. It mentions that lighting is most often a city responsibility. most likely, the city agreed to pay for the lights on independence and 85, but for whatever reason didn't pay for them on 77north of downtown (probably because there is wall, so the foundations for each of them would have bumped the price up a lot.

[A2]

there was reference in the observer over the weekend about how lights on the new section of independence freeway are on order and will be put up soon.  It mentions that lighting is most often a city responsibility.  most likely, the city agreed to pay for the lights on independence and 85, but for whatever reason didn't pay for them on 77north of downtown (probably because there is wall, so the foundations for each of them would have bumped the price up a lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so will there EVER be lights on 77N. This seems wild that they would not plan for lighting. The costs of not having them outweigh the cost in putting them in. Saving lives should be a concern for the state, right ??? I can't see a damn thing heading north. What is really wild is that with the addition of the mall and Huntersville, along with the rest of N Meck, growing like mad their are bound to be more cars than ever before. This will lead to more accidents if lighting is not addressed.

THis issue has me more Upset than the Parking lot deal D.

A2