Traffic, Freeways and Road Construction

[Sabaidee]

About the trucking hub, trucking and frieght train goes hand and hand, the recently Transportation bill passed by Congress gives Charlotte $15 to help relocate the rail yard and trucking area off of Brevard and North Tryon to near the Airport. Charlotte could always do what Atlanta do, limit truck routes from the main Interstate and shift to the I-285. Charlotte already begining to limit what route trucks can use going through city streets, like just recently the city eliminated trucks from using North Davidson through NoDa.

[dubone]

even with the intermodal station gone, there is still the fact that charlotte is a city, and needs the capacity that goes with an interstate (although maybe not of the highest/most expensive standards...). Trucks are still headed to destinations in the city, because there are manufacturing facilities, retail facilities, warehouses, etc., that need the infrastructure. while i'd still argue that brookshire is probably fine as it is, except for maybe some safety improvements, there is no question in my mind that east charlotte needs independence to be upgraded. it would not be suffering as much economically if it had the road capacity of a major interstate.

Sure, there is some prestige that comes with the interstate shield, and that is certainly a factor for national businesses when choosing their locations... but the capacity is the main point.

If we are already planning to address the capacity issues, then why not fight for inclusion in the interstate system.

without the utmost capacity to bring traffic and people into the center of the city, it will create a choking/donut condition that causes downtowns to decline. I'm BIG for rail, rapid transit, surface street, and pedestrian infrastructure, but i also believe we need interstate connections in each cardinal direction, too.

[orulz]

Sure, there is some prestige that comes with the interstate shield, and that is certainly a factor for national businesses when choosing their locations... but the capacity is the main point.

I wonder how much capacity is gained with a 6-lane 55mph interstate versus a 6-lane 45mph sub-interstate freeway. My gut feeling is that the answer is "not much," but I could be wrong. And of course, safety issues such as sharper curves and shorter ramps become less of an issue at slower speeds.

This is just my personal observation, but I think that modern interstates are very succeptible to traffic jams, particularly when they're operating at or near capacity. In the event of an accident, lots of people are stuck on the interstate because exits are widely spaced, with the only outlets being a couple major thoroughfares that will also become congested as cars exit the blocked interstate. Sub-interstate freeways (alternatively, interstates built to obsolete standards) can have as many as 3 exits per mile (more, perhaps) with a great deal of flexibility for on-off traffic. Pretty much any "modern" interstate is limited to 1 exit per mile, regardless of whether it's rural or urban.

You do bring up some good points, though, dubone. I'll have to think about it for a while.

[orulz]

As an aside, here is an article from the Monday, August 1 Observer about the relocation of the intermodal yard.

It doesn't discuss redevelopment or reuse of the old facility, and it doesn't suggest that Norfolk Southern will relocate their conventional freight operations - but even so, there's a lot of potential there.

[skysdalimit]

I think it should go through town. I also think the rich people around 485 would let it go on that road just b/c it would increase highway noise and truck traffic.

[Norm2]

If you look at Europe, no highways cut through any of their city centers, their highways bypass the city entirely. Their highways wee built to specifically get from one city to another, not to get from one point in a city to another point in the city. That is one huge reason why Europe has such lively downtowns, their downtown were never cut up by large higways, and rather public transportation is used.

[CLTfanatic]

On a side note to that article, isnt Charlotte Douglas building a 4th runway, not a 3rd?

[monsoon]

If you look at Europe, no highways cut through any of their city centers, their highways bypass the city entirely. Their highways wee built to specifically get from one city to another, not to get from one point in a city to another point in the city. That is one huge reason why Europe has such lively downtowns, their downtown were never cut up by large higways, and rather public transportation is used.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. If you want to drive away people, build a superhighway. I forget his name, but the last planning director of Charlotte, who held the position for more than 20 years said that without a doubt, the worst urbanplanning mistake made in Charlotte was the building of the inner loop. He was referring to the Brookshire & the John Belk freeway. Imagine how much nicer it would be if those highways did not exist along with I-77 slicing up the DT area.

[Raintree21]

If you look at Europe, no highways cut through any of their city centers, their highways bypass the city entirely. Their highways wee built to specifically get from one city to another, not to get from one point in a city to another point in the city. That is one huge reason why Europe has such lively downtowns, their downtown were never cut up by large higways, and rather public transportation is used.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My guess would be that this is because most European cities are several hundred years old, predating interstates. Most of them were already quite large before interstates even came into play so of course they wouldn't be intersecting them because there would be no where to put them.

[Raintree21]

On a side note to that article, isnt Charlotte Douglas building a 4th runway, not a 3rd?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Charlotte is going to be building a 4th runway. Construction was supposed to have started this past Spring and it will parallel Runway 18R/36L.

The other runways are 18L/36R and 5/23. I'm not sure what the new runway will be called but it will be followed by a L and R like 18 and 36.

[dubone]

I wonder how much capacity is gained with a 6-lane 55mph interstate versus a 6-lane 45mph sub-interstate freeway. My gut feeling is that the answer is "not much," but I could be wrong. And of course, safety issues such as sharper curves and shorter ramps become less of an issue at slower speeds.

i agree with that in principle, i was mostly referring to the fact that east charlotte doesn't even have a subfreeway, except for the short sections that have been completed in the last few years. east charlotte needs a full-fledged freeway for its capacity, and if the sections that are already freeways don't meet safety standards, then by all means they should be upgraded eventually as there are lot more cars on those roads put at risk, then.

This is just my personal observation, but I think that modern interstates are very succeptible to traffic jams, particularly when they're operating at or near capacity. In the event of an accident, lots of people are stuck on the interstate because exits are widely spaced, with the only outlets being a couple major thoroughfares that will also become congested as cars exit the blocked interstate. Sub-interstate freeways (alternatively, interstates built to obsolete standards) can have as many as 3 exits per mile (more, perhaps) with a great deal of flexibility for on-off traffic. Pretty much any "modern" interstate is limited to 1 exit per mile, regardless of whether it's rural or urban.

i am really getting an education in these interstate standards. It pretty much sounds like they are just prohibitive, and that by definition cannot ever be built through population centers again... perhaps there is no choice but to request a green-interstate designation when routing through cities now.

You do bring up some good points, though, dubone. I'll have to think about it for a while.

thanks, and same to you, too. frankly, i think if i30 is a reality (it is somewhat silly that we are arguing about a routing for a corridor that isn't even on the books), NCDOT will, as always, take the path of least resistance and just bypass the city.... but hopefully i've made my point that i don't agree with that choice .

[monsoon]

My guess would be that this is because most European cities are several hundred years old, predating interstates. Most of them were already quite large before interstates even came into play so of course they wouldn't be intersecting them because there would be no where to put them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Eisenhower Interstate system in the USA is only 50 years old so almost every major city in the USA will predate it here too. Yet that didn't stop places like Boston (centuries old) from running interstates through their downtown and end up paying dearly for it. That is why they have been spending tens of billions (Big Dig) to correct these disasters.

[orulz]

Perhaps we could say that superhighways through downtown can be a boon to a city's skyline - you get lots of office skyscrapers because people from all over the place can drive there to work, but perhaps something (traffic, ridiculously inflated land values, loss of blue-collar/service jobs, etc) kills the livability aspect and sparks suburban flight, so people stop living there.

dubone mentioned that cities with downtown freeways tend to have impressive skylines, and that a city's skyline is a good indicator of the health of its downtown. I think that's a gross oversimplification; skylines are only a part of a much larger picture. If there are no people, no shops, no restaurants, etc. and the downtown dies at night and on the weekends, then there's not much point to having bunches of pretty skyscrapers. Notice how, in Europe, there aren't many cities with large collections of tall buildings. In spite of that, I wouldn't call those cities "failures."

[ilektronik]

Notice how, in Europe, there aren't many cities with large collections of tall buildings. In spite of that, I wouldn't call those cities "failures."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are comparing apples and oranges. Americans have more of a "bigger is better" attitude than Europeans. Good luck finding any Hummers or stretch Expidetions on the streets of Paris.

A better comparison would be Asian cities vs American cities; as Asians (like us) have a taste for skylines.

[orulz]

i am really getting an education in these interstate standards.  It pretty much sounds like they are just prohibitive, and that by definition cannot ever be built through population centers again...  perhaps there is no choice but to request a green-interstate designation when routing through cities now.

There may be some loopholes or exceptions, but for the most part, modern interstate standards are not compatible with livable downtowns. And let's not forget that freeways have NEVER played nice with cities and neighborhoods. They are barriers and eyesores. The best you can hope for is a freeway that's "not too disruptive", and without a multi-billion dollar project like Boston's "big dig," even that would be impossible if you were to route a road as huge and important as I-30 along the Brookshire.

[orulz]

A better comparison would be Asian cities vs American cities; as Asians (like us) have a taste for skylines.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dunno, I lived in Japan for a year, and I was quite underwhelmed by their skylines. Same goes for South Korea when I visited for a couple weeks. Never been to China, but I hear that they actually are building urban freeways - and look! Their skylines are booming too. With the possible exception of Hong Kong, though, they're also seeng a great deal of urban flight, congestion, and increased auto dependence as well. The Chinese government is somewhat heavy-handed and insensitive about infrastructure and urban renewal, perhaps similar to the US in the 1950s and 1960s - and several decades from now I bet they'll end up struggling to undo some of the mistakes they're probably making today.

[SmellyCat]

Precisely. In the early 1960s, Robert Moses tried to build an elevated expressway through the heart of lower Manhattan that would have connected the Holland Tunnel with the Brooklyn or Williamsburg Bridge. Luckily there was enough backlash that, after years of delays, finally killed the project in 1969. That expressway would have essentially wiped out all of SoHo and probably billions of dollars of future revenues for the city generated from that area, not to mention the enormous costs it would have taken to construct it.

[northernbizzkit1]

Are there any plans to have a city-wide widening to the Charlotte interstate system? I just got back from Charlotte, and I was surprised by how the roads there are relatively small...well, not wide. I mean, the smallest I see in Memphis these days are 4 lanes with 5-6 lanes being the norm...I saw 3 lanes happening in Charlotte for the most part...WHY IS THAT??? THE TRAFFIC IS AWFUL!!!! Do I need to quit my day job and start pouring asphalt myself along the Charlotte roadways???? If it helps, I don't see a problem with it! I enjoyed the city! I despise traffic, and it's awful enough in Memphis (it's a mass parking lot from about 3-7.30 here)...but Charlotte needs bigger roads so you can just wonder why you still have traffic with roads that are about a mile or two in width.

[MZT]

Where would these lanes go? I-77 has high embankments and LOTS of bridges. Planners in the 1960s probably thought they were being forward thinking to even allow room for a third lane.

Now, building I-277 with it's tight curves and ramps in the 1980's is a harder thing to excuse....

[nyxmike]

Are there any plans to have a city-wide widening to the Charlotte interstate system? I just got back from Charlotte, and I was surprised by how the roads there are relatively small...well, not wide. I mean, the smallest I see in Memphis these days are 4 lanes with 5-6 lanes being the norm...I saw 3 lanes happening in Charlotte for the most part...WHY IS THAT??? THE TRAFFIC IS AWFUL!!!! Do I need to quit my day job and start pouring asphalt myself along the Charlotte roadways???? If it helps, I don't see a problem with it! I enjoyed the city! I despise traffic, and it's awful enough in Memphis (it's a mass parking lot from about 3-7.30 here)...but Charlotte needs bigger roads so you can just wonder why you still have traffic with roads that are about a mile or two in width.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are trying to focus on building a transit system because the more highways you build and the more you widen them the more you encourage sprawl which leads to more traffic anyways so it makes the money you just spent to widen or build the road useless and you will probably have to spend more money to widen it over and over again until you can't anymore..

Plus NCDOT stinks.

[MZT]

That's an often repeated myth. Sprawl does not follow highway capacity. It follows where developers buy land and where cities approve subdivisions. Planning departments and school boards regularly reccommend NO on a subdivision, and it gets approved anyway.

Politics, money, politics, money, politics..... money!

[orulz]

Are there any plans to have a city-wide widening to the Charlotte interstate system? I just got back from Charlotte, and I was surprised by how the roads there are relatively small...well, not wide. I mean, the smallest I see in Memphis these days are 4 lanes with 5-6 lanes being the norm...I saw 3 lanes happening in Charlotte for the most part...WHY IS THAT??? THE TRAFFIC IS AWFUL!!!! Do I need to quit my day job and start pouring asphalt myself along the Charlotte roadways???? If it helps, I don't see a problem with it! I enjoyed the city! I despise traffic, and it's awful enough in Memphis (it's a mass parking lot from about 3-7.30 here)...but Charlotte needs bigger roads so you can just wonder why you still have traffic with roads that are about a mile or two in width.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I spent the entire day yesterday in Charlotte, this time with a car, and explored some neighborhoods I'd never seen before. But to provide a counterpoint to your statement, Charlotte depends much more on its surface thoroughfares as opposed to its highways and freeways compared to other cities. The system works. I did notice, however, that there are very few satisfactory roads for moving laterally within the city; it's mostly oriented as a hub-and-spoke design. I say the answer to Charlotte's problems is not bigger highways, but better interconnection of collector streets and arterials.

As for Memphis, I've driven through there three times over the last five months, and what I consider to be the city's main highway, I-40, is still just a four-lane job through the entire western part of the city. Looks like they're finally getting around to widening it, but for now... my God, what a mess!

As an aside, about I saw Carolinas Medical Center for the first time... is that place just one huge parking deck, or is there actually a hospital buried somewhere in there? Talk about ugly!

[MZT]

I spent the entire day yesterday in Charlotte,

[northernbizzkit1]

As for Memphis, I've driven through there three times over the last five months, and what I consider to be the city's main highway, I-40, is still just a four-lane job through the entire western part of the city. Looks like they're finally getting around to widening it, but for now... my God, what a mess!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was a six/eight lane road until construction started. Once that came about, it was reduced to a four-lane bottlenecking mess around downtown. They're bringing it back to the six/eight lane road that it was after construction is complete, but they're working on a better ramp system since the construction is where I-40 was supposed to go through the city, but the whole petition deal stopped due to the zoo. Many of the ramps just led to nowhere, so they are being torn down and replace with wider ramps that do take you places. It's all a part of the "Make Downtown Visible!" work to place signs and easier access to downtown Memphis.

[monsoon]

That's more prevalent in eastern cities. In the west, cities are laid out in a perfect grid. The thing is, a grid layout isn't very direct either. Square root of two diagonal rule, ya know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that generalization is much too simple to describe any city in the USA.