Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[spenser1058]

12 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Not really. 

I’m no Buddy defender and believe in term limits however this idea that Orlando is transgressing into some backwater Apopka pit is hard to understand.

This narrative here that downtown Orlando is on life support is perplexing. Is it because Tampa has the Water Street development and Tampa is a city that actually needs to have a seemingly developed downtown while Orlando has had one all along?

Tbh, Tampa would not be my go-to city over there. I think St. Pete has done a much better job of being the kind of place I’d want to live.

The thing for me is that back in the ‘80’s Orlando was trying new ideas almost weekly and rapidly became the vision for what a livable downtown could be in Florida. Lately, other cities have done a better job. 

The historic core is being ignored and the creative vision that was in play is long gone. If you haven’t seen that decline over the years, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. To me, it couldn’t be clearer, but that’s why there are so many versions out there of what makes a city successful.

Btw, when I mentioned Apopka, it was because I was reminded of a contest in the Sentinel a few years back for the best downtown in the region (DeLightful! DeLand won with WG right behind).

Afterward, a number of Apopka residents wrote to columnist Beth Kassab asking how their town had gone so wrong. After all, it’s one of the biggest smaller towns, they have a strong-mayor form of government (which is supposed to streamline decision making), it’s growing and has places like Rock Springs and very active community programs (like their very successful Little League).

As best as anyone could determine, it was mostly because, while DeLand and WG were actively trying new things and getting both leaders and citizens hyped up on what they can be, their mayor of almost 50 years, John Land, just thought everything was hunky-dory and just sat at city hall.

We know the results. It’s very much the same with Orlando. Buddy is an in-box kind of mayor - if it comes in the box, he’ll act on it. Otherwise, it’s just handed off to the developers.

What’s missing is “the vision thing” as they used to say about Poppy Bush.

I could give you lots of other examples but I am happy to agree it’s a dead horse and all you folks who think that Downtown Orlando is just fine are in the lead.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by spenser1058

[Uncommon]

8 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Tbh, Tampa would not be my go-to city over there. I think St. Pete has done a much better job of being the kind of place I’d want to live.

The thing for me is that back in the ‘80’s Orlando was trying new ideas almost weekly and rapidly became the vision for what a livable downtown could be in Florida. Lately, other cities have done a better job.

The historic core is being ignored and the creative vision that was in play is long gone. If you haven’t seen that decline over the years, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. To me, it couldn’t be clearer, but that’s why there are so many versions out there of what makes a city successful.

Decline in what exactly? Historical buildings? Because you do know that St. Pete also rid of themselves historical buildings to construct Muvico right? Or that they knocked down the old Pier building to build a new Pier right? St. Pete is building towers faster than any Florida city not named Miami and they’re not dismantling newer buildings to do it.

I get the desire to preserve historical elements of a city but that’s not Florida’s way of doing things typically. And that doesn’t suddenly mean the downtown area isn’t successful. Out of Florida’s large cities, Orlando’s downtown is the second best from my experience.  St. Pete is first but downtown Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, and Clearwater are significantly more sterile, less active, less livable, less populated, and far less vibrant. I understand Buddy has not done everything perfect and to your liking, but downtown hasn’t suffered as much as you’re suggesting, and inside of 3 years should have Luminary Green, Art 2 and Under-I parks, Parliament House, 2 food halls, Sunrail to the airport, an extra 2,000 people living downtown, another bar district on Church, and probably a couple more things I’m likely forgetting.

It isn’t as doom and gloom as you’re implying.

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Decline in what exactly? Historical buildings? Because you do know that St. Pete also rid of themselves historical buildings to construct Muvico right? Or that they knocked down the old Pier building to build a new Pier right? St. Pete is building towers faster than any Florida city not named Miami and they’re not dismantling newer buildings to do it.

I get the desire to preserve historical elements of a city but that’s not Florida’s way of doing things typically. And that doesn’t suddenly mean the downtown area isn’t successful. Out of Florida’s large cities, Orlando’s downtown is the second best from my experience.  St. Pete is first but downtown Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, and Clearwater are significantly more sterile, less active, less livable, less populated, and far less vibrant. I understand Buddy has not done everything perfect and to your liking, but downtown hasn’t suffered as much as you’re suggesting, and inside of 3 years should have Luminary Green, Art 2 and Under-I parks, Parliament House, 2 food halls, Sunrail to the airport, an extra 2,000 people living downtown, another bar district on Church, and probably a couple more things I’m likely forgetting.

It isn’t as doom and gloom as you’re implying.

It’s always a battle but there have been several buildings that have been saved recently. Baywalk, which came about when the Grumpy Old Men ran St. Pete, was one of the poor decisions that led the city to change its government.

If you think our historic core isn’t worth investing in, then Lake Nona is the future for you. I think that’s wrong but Urbo thinks it’s a great idea. Places like Brevard and Seminole Counties have gone that way (although Sanford said “whoa!”).

Places with a past attract attention. If you disagree, party on in Lake Mary or Casselberry. 

 

 

[prahaboheme]

57 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Tbh, Tampa would not be my go-to city over there. I think St. Pete has done a much better job of being the kind of place I’d want to live.

The thing for me is that back in the ‘80’s Orlando was trying new ideas almost weekly and rapidly became the vision for what a livable downtown could be in Florida. Lately, other cities have done a better job. 

The historic core is being ignored and the creative vision that was in play is long gone. If you haven’t seen that decline over the years, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. To me, it couldn’t be clearer, but that’s why there are so many versions out there of what makes a city successful.

Btw, when I mentioned Apopka, it was because I was reminded of a contest in the Sentinel a few years back for the best downtown in the region (DeLightful! DeLand won with WG right behind).

Afterward, a number of Apopka residents wrote to columnist Beth Kassab asking how their town had gone so wrong. After all, it’s one of the biggest smaller towns, they have a strong-mayor form of government (which is supposed to streamline decision making), it’s growing and has places like Rock Springs and very active community programs (like their very successful Little League).

As best as anyone could determine, it was mostly because, while DeLand and WG were actively trying new things and getting both leaders and citizens hyped up on what they can be, their mayor of almost 50 years, John Land, just thought everything was hunky-dory and just sat at city hall.

We know the results. It’s very much the same with Orlando. Buddy is an in-box kind of mayor - if it comes in the box, he’ll act on it. Otherwise, it’s just handed off to the developers.

What’s missing is “the vision thing” as they used to say about Poppy Bush.

I could give you lots of other examples but I am happy to agree it’s a dead horse and all you folks who think that Downtown Orlando is just fine are in the lead.

 

 

It’s not a dead horse — 

BTW, am I now a “folk?

 

 

[spenser1058]

28 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

It’s not a dead horse — 

BTW, am I now a “folk?

 

 

I’m just a good ol’ boy from the orange groves and we’re all just folks :-).It apparently is a dead horse because nothing downtown is really changing - it’s just going to end up an endless supply of boxes. It sure isn’t what I imagined for us but I acknowledge there’s been no movement in the other direction for years. Unlike the fellow at Mar-a-Lago I can admit when I’m beat.

 

 

 

 

 

[Uncommon]

50 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It’s always a battle but there have been several buildings that have been saved recently. Baywalk, which came about when the Grumpy Old Men ran St. Pete, was one of the poor decisions that led the city to change its government.

If you think our historic core isn’t worth investing in, then Lake Nona is the future for you. I think that’s wrong but Urbo thinks it’s a great idea. Places like Brevard and Seminole Counties have gone that way (although Sanford said “whoa!”).

Places with a past attract attention. If you disagree, party on in Lake Mary or Casselberry. 

 

 

Cmon Spense, saying people don’t think the historic core is not worth investing in is the definition of a straw man argument. Clearly, saving historical buildings is a positive to downtown’s character and charm and no one in their right mind WANTS to tear down those buildings.

But you’re suggesting downtown Orlando is somehow hurting while you desperately pine for the good ol days. The pessimist’s archive shtick gets tiresome at times. It’s textbook loss aversion. You seem to pay much more attention to what’s bad about downtown Orlando now that you ignore what was bad about downtown Orlando in the 80s. You’re filtering out the bad things about Orlando then and it’s causing you to see downtown as only getting worse and worse. But like I said, downtown Orlando is easily the second best downtown in Florida. And it is continuing to get better with more park space, residents, things to do etc.

The only thing I’ll agree with you on is the lack of real shopping. But this is beginning to plague most cities in the US, even the mega ones like LA and Atlanta.

[Urbo]

44 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It’s always a battle but there have been several buildings that have been saved recently. Baywalk, which came about when the Grumpy Old Men ran St. Pete, was one of the poor decisions that led the city to change its government.

If you think our historic core isn’t worth investing in, then Lake Nona is the future for you. I think that’s wrong but Urbo thinks it’s a great idea. Places like Brevard and Seminole Counties have gone that way (although Sanford said “whoa!”).

Places with a past attract attention. If you disagree, party on in Lake Mary or Casselberry. 

 

 

I actually agree with you. And I don't think the historic core isn't worth the investment, its just that I recognize its not happening at the pace that i would prefer in Downtown Orlando so I've shifted my interest to where the urban and real estate investment is going (Lake Nona). D.C. is the model urban city to me (in additional to Charleston being the model small urban city). And preserving the old while welcoming the new is always the best policy in my opinion.  While I do like Lake Nona, it is not my preference.

I also agree with the lack of vision.  For Orlando to be ranked as the worst city for pedestrians, we should be seeing tactical urbanism and pilot projects being implemented on a weekly and month basis. There should be real movement towards pedestrian oriented development, road diets,  street calming tactics, sidewalk improvements, and my favorite, turn more streets to pedestrian only and/or woonerfs that prioritize walking or car use (instead of just slapping some color and a orange on a pedestrian crosswalk). While I do see the growth in Downtown, in my opinion its not that exciting and is average at best when comparing to other growing cities like Austin or even Tampa. There is no excuse why they can't do better.

[jrs2]

On 7/28/2021 at 2:06 PM, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Was just thinking about this. COVID has put downtown Orlando  on life support for economic growth. We won't see any new buildings get off the ground that weren't already approved unless something drastically changes in the numbers with employment.

I'm still in a wait and see on this.  I do believe the Magic Training Facility was a post covid thing, right?  And these new CV proposals?

[jrs2]

18 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Not really. 

I’m no Buddy defender and believe in term limits however this idea that Orlando is transgressing into some backwater Apopka pit is hard to understand.

This narrative here that downtown Orlando is on life support is perplexing. Is it because Tampa has the Water Street development and Tampa is a city that actually needs to have a seemingly developed downtown while Orlando has had one all along?

Much of what is built in downtown Orlando is infill development whereas in Tampa, a downtown of parking lots, is building from the ground up.

my definition of being on life support is about projects being built that are bland using bland materials that are built just for the sake of filling up space.  Now, that's better than nothing, right?  But that's been many peoples' complaints about Orlando--- why have to settle for the bare minimum in design and quality, etc.

By contrast, compared to a couple of the new towers at Water Street, those glass buildings there look like they could be in Central London.  Now the only thing that could bail Orlando out design-wise would be these two new glass office and residential towers proposed for CV, CSP (western facade), Aspire, Plaza N & S, Vue, and a couple of other towers-perhaps CitiTower and Star Tower, Citrus Center, Wells Fargo, Copper Whopper, Union West, Julian, Gateway Center, Novel Lucerne, 101 Eola, and Society based on it's renderings.  I am a fan of 520 yet I despise the look of 420.  Amway and the Dpac are both awesome.  The Orange & Robinson apartment building is tilt wall and paint and 55W is all paint (sans the first couple levels of brick).

I know a lot of apartments buildings in downtown Tampa are built like  the ones in and around downtown Orlando, but we need some glass towers.

So that's what I mean by life support...value engineered buildings because that's all the area can afford to create. 

See, downtown Orlando is going to grow...it's inevitable based on how many people move here daily.  But the design and quality evolution, if you will, is not keeping up with the new residents rate of moving here.  As a result, it's on life support the way I use the phrase.  And now, Florida is becoming so expensive that DTO may never get the number of "quality" buildings that other cities have had for over fifty years, except for the few it already has.

Most everything you see is either precast + paint vs granite + glass, because it's cheaper.  And cheap shows.  The banks only finance "cheap" in Orlando with limited exceptions, hence..."on life support."  that's my definition at least.

[Urbo]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

my definition of being on life support is about projects being built that are bland using bland materials that are built just for the sake of filling up space.  Now, that's better than nothing, right?  But that's been many peoples' complaints about Orlando--- why have to settle for the bare minimum in design and quality, etc.

By contrast, compared to a couple of the new towers at Water Street, those glass buildings there look like they could be in Central London.  Now the only thing that could bail Orlando out design-wise would be these two new glass office and residential towers proposed for CV, CSP (western facade), Aspire, Plaza N & S, Vue, and a couple of other towers-perhaps CitiTower and Star Tower, Citrus Center, Wells Fargo, Copper Whopper, Union West, Julian, Gateway Center, Novel Lucerne, 101 Eola, and Society based on it's renderings.  I am a fan of 520 yet I despise the look of 420.  Amway and the Dpac are both awesome.  The Orange & Robinson apartment building is tilt wall and paint and 55W is all paint (sans the first couple levels of brick).

I know a lot of apartments buildings in downtown Tampa are built like  the ones in and around downtown Orlando, but we need some glass towers.

So that's what I mean by life support...value engineered buildings because that's all the area can afford to create. 

See, downtown Orlando is going to grow...it's inevitable based on how many people move here daily.  But the design and quality evolution, if you will, is not keeping up with the new residents rate of moving here.  As a result, it's on life support the way I use the phrase.  And now, Florida is becoming so expensive that DTO may never get the number of "quality" buildings that other cities have had for over fifty years, except for the few it already has.

Most everything you see is either precast + paint vs granite + glass, because it's cheaper.  And cheap shows.  The banks only finance "cheap" in Orlando with limited exceptions, hence..."on life support."  that's my definition at least.

You are spot on! Bring better design and Architecture to Downtown. Fillers are cool for large downtowns with swaths of parking and underutilized buildings (like Miami). Orlando just need more architecturally interesting buildings and better designed streetscapes and public places. In my opinion Austin, TX is a good comparative example of bringing good design and investment to their downtown. 

[jrs2]

49 minutes ago, Urbo said:

You are spot on! Bring better design and Architecture to Downtown. Fillers are cool for large downtowns with swaths of parking and underutilized buildings (like Miami). Orlando just need more architecturally interesting buildings and better designed streetscapes and public places. In my opinion Austin, TX is a good comparative example of bringing good design and investment to their downtown. 

I think also unfortunately for Orlando, is that it was also a sea of parking lots but we got so used to it we couldn't see it, and that's one of the reasons I think City Hall is like "just build something" and "the larger the footprint the better."

think about it, Steehouse, The Sevens, NORA- all of those developments also improved the streetscape with streetlights, etc.  the larger the footprint, the more streetscape gets improved.  not that that's the only benefit, but it does affect the City's bottom line ala maintenance etc costs.

...and from a distance everything is so spread out downtown it's sick, from Wells Fargo to CSP, and it's not like from a distance the lower rise buildings are there but just not visible; for years there were no lower rise buildings filling those gaps.  Now at least those gaps are lessening.  And remember, the size of DTO's city blocks are much larger than Tampa's downtown.  SO if a single city block is undeveloped in DTO, it equates to four in Tampa; two linearly.  It's really bad here from that respect.  I mean, why is Washington the last E-W corridor between there and Robinson?  North of Colonial- all we have is Park Lake and Marks going E-W before Ivanhoe.  There should be a third E-W corridor.

N-S: Garland to Orange- no other N-S road in between?  I think the lack of intersections makes everything more spread out- and it definitely does the same in the metro with all of the lakes spreading major streets out. 

[codypet]

23 hours ago, jrs2 said:

N-S: Garland to Orange- no other N-S road in between?  I think the lack of intersections makes everything more spread out- and it definitely does the same in the metro with all of the lakes spreading major streets out. 

Historically they did.  Gertrude St.   Then the RxR took over the R/W.

Likewise Court got chopped up a bunch of times to build megablocks.  That alley behind Labelle's is effectively Court.  The Diocese made a parking lot out of Court a block south and Regions was built over part of Court.  Somehow the Plaza was made to bridge over Court thankfully.

Edited August 3, 2021 by codypet

[spenser1058]

30 minutes ago, codypet said:

Historically they did.  Gertrude St.   Then the RxR took over the R/W.

Likewise Court got chopped up a bunch of times to build megablocks.  That alley behind Labelle's is effectively Court.  The Diocese made a parking lot out of Court a block south and Regions was built over part of Court.  Somehow the Plaza was made to bridge over Court thankfully.

The 1957-58 courthouse annex also ended up too wide for the lot and they had to make adjustments for that as well.

[prahaboheme]

One way to humanize large blocks is to have two way streets rather than one way highways jetting through downtown.

[jrs2]

all good points above.

...and that is the way it is in DTO as a result of all of the above.  The only way to make the blocks smaller is to do what The Julian did, in creating a street between it and Union West, that also wraps behind it to Amelia (for example)

[spenser1058]

Big changes are coming to Church Street’s Mad Cow Theatre:

Mad Cow Theatre adds staff, expands leadership structure

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-et-mad-cow-staff-changes-20210812-hy6e3ltfxjhudb2eua7h6tuna4-story.html

From The Sentinel 

 

 

 

[popsiclebrandon]

So they have had years of trouble paying people and the plan is to hire more people? Yeah good luck with that.

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

So they have had years of trouble paying people and the plan is to hire more people? Yeah good luck with that.

No doubt hoping for a sugar daddy if they get their diversity act together.

[jrs2]

neither here nor there, but on google satellite view I noticed that the pools at Park Lake Towers and Star Tower are either being renovated or have been temporarily shut down--maybe b/c of the solid chlorine shortage?

[popsiclebrandon]

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

neither here nor there, but on google satellite view I noticed that the pools at Park Lake Towers and Star Tower are either being renovated or have been temporarily shut down--maybe b/c of the solid chlorine shortage?

PLT hasn't had a working pool in almost 2 years. They found major structural issues so the entire parking deck and pool area have been getting worked on. Still has months to go I believe. Its basically like 3 years the pool isn't usable because it isn't heated.

[jrs2]

4 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

PLT hasn't had a working pool in almost 2 years. They found major structural issues so the entire parking deck and pool area have been getting worked on. Still has months to go I believe. Its basically like 3 years the pool isn't usable because it isn't heated.

my bad.  you're right.  the pool has the garage underneath...

[codypet]

1 hour ago, popsiclebrandon said:

PLT hasn't had a working pool in almost 2 years. They found major structural issues so the entire parking deck and pool area have been getting worked on. Still has months to go I believe. Its basically like 3 years the pool isn't usable because it isn't heated.

 

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

my bad.  you're right.  the pool has the garage underneath...

OMG how terrified do you think those condo owners are seeing what happened in Miami?

If its any solace, after reading up about that collapse, the pool itself is at the same level as the garage because the pool deck is what's on top of the garage.  It always messes with my mind when I think about it, but it makes perfect sense.

Edited August 13, 2021 by codypet

[popsiclebrandon]

Yeah moved out of my unit about a week after that collapse. There is some obvious wear in the basement but nothing like Seaside.

[jack]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

 

OMG how terrified do you think those condo owners are seeing what happened in Miami?

If its any solace, after reading up about that collapse, the pool itself is at the same level as the garage because the pool deck is what's on top of the garage.  It always messes with my mind when I think about it, but it makes perfect sense.

Stainless Steel pools. It is the way to go if it is elevated. 

[jrs2]

Anyone a fan of Parliament House?  

If so, I hear that they are going to be the new tenants in the former City Arts Factory.