The Bad News Report

[atlrvr]

 

10 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I am not diminishing HB2 on some prospects but I dont think it was the ONLY reason as stated in the Observer and Business Journal articles. If as reported they were looking at 300 South Tryon or 615 South College towers both rental rates in the low to mid $30 a square foot and then found some former corporate headquarter space in a newer building in Richmond (was Mead Westvaco HQ) at $20 a square foot furnished,  I do believe that had something big on their decision making and easy drive from their DC headquarters. . Here is the Washington Business Journal article http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2016/10/25/costar-to-establish-research-hub-in-richmond.html   Imagine the money they are saving and on top of their incentives. Yet 500 new jobs probably in the same pay range but not sure come to Charlotte via GoHealth and there is hardly a peep from the Observer.   The article in Richmond more about their sublease space http://www.richmond.com/business/local/article_f361b40f-1f21-5292-82b6-85a148d7baa8.html

 

^  There never is an "only" reason, but these things sort of work like scorecards.  For example is 100 is a perfect score on a variety of factors maybe weighted differently:

Below is a random guess at how a scorecard looks with max score in parenthesis:

Incentives (10)

Average Wage (15)

Cost of Office Space (10)

Size/Growth of Talent Pool (25)

Transportation Convenience (10)

Quality of Schools/Culture (10)

Cost of Living (10)

Alignment with Corporate Philosophy (10)

Total = 100

^^^ Let say Charlotte is a, I dunno, 78 on this assuming they score of a 7 on Quality of Life and 6 on Alignment with Corp Philosophy, and Richmond is a 72...then they think hard about it (or as RDF21 says, show their results to the Board) and say, no HB2 really is against what we think we stand for, that could drop Corp Philosophy score to 2 and QoL to 4, and now Charlotte is a 71....

Again, no factor is ever in isolation, but ultimately HB2 seems to have been the make or break.....the obvious counter argument to my above hypothetical is if Charlotte office cost was $20/sf, then thay may have boosted our score back to say 74, and we still would have "won".

What's important is that recruiting jobs is VERY competitive, and we are just handicapping ourselves with HB2 to make it MUCH harder to win, because while Charlotte does well on most of the issues, it's not really at the top of any single one.

[cjd5050]

38 minutes ago, grodney said:

The NC Civil Rights thread is probably the best place for that post.

Moved over there.  Thanks.

[CLT2014]

HB2 was definitely a big factor. It also looks like timing could be a big factor. CoStar hopes to hire 200 to 300 people by year end, they have numerous jobs already posted, and they can already start moving in to fully furnished office space ASAP. In Charlotte they would still be waiting for the new towers to complete and then have to furnish them. The CEO of CoStar also grew up in Virginia and his sister lives near Richmond so that might be a wildcard. In addition, they already have about 50 people that have applied for a transfer to the Richmond office from Washington DC... allowing them to continue downsizing their DC office space to just the highest paid senior management. People working in the DC office, but residents of Northern Virginia, might be eager to make the move to the lower cost of living in Richmond and they don't have to switch states and are 2 hours away from DC still.

It sounds like CoStar visited Richmond first but couldn't find a modern office building that would fit their needs (most of their vacant space is in outdated 80's buildings). The initial two floors listed at the top of the WestRock HQ wasn't enough space. I would guess in mid-summer, WestRock hadn't found a tenant for the top two floors and was willing to vacate two more floors in order to close a deal. CoStar gets to move in to the top two floors fully furnished while they ramp up hiring and WestRock will vacate the two others floors (they are having lots of attrition and layoffs) through 2017. 

So my guess is they visited Richmond and couldn't find a suitable space -> visited Charlotte and found space but it was more expensive, but it was the best option they had -> Richmond and WestRock come back into the picture with a fully furnished cheaper space that was also modern, no HB2 hesitations to worry about, and a better incentive package -> Board says even though you are far along with Charlotte, Richmond is cheaper + no HB2 + better incentives -> burned real estate agent in Charlotte says "it was all HB2" out of frustration -> real estate agent's manager the next day says broker said things "in the heat of the moment."

Edited October 26, 2016 by CLT2014

[cltbwimob]

33 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

What's important is that recruiting jobs is VERY competitive, and we are just handicapping ourselves with HB2 to make it MUCH harder to win, because while Charlotte does well on most of the issues, it's not really at the top of any single one.

True...Unfortunately I think the NCGA actually enjoys handicapping Charlotte, so I think these companies that pass Charlotte over are playing right into the hands of the General Assembly. IMHO, they want to punish Charlotte, so Costar, PayPal, the NBA, and others are only reinforcing the GA's desire to keep HB2 in place.  

Now if, say, Airbus were looking at building an assembly plant at the North Carolina Global Transpark in Kingston,  but instead chose Greenville-Spartanburg and cited HB2 as the reason they chose to go elsewhere or if Toyota was looking at the megasite in Edgecombe County for a major plant but instead decided to build in Virginia and cited HB2 as the reason, then I think there would be an entire chorus in the legislature calling for HB2's repeal.  But as long as the bad news is being heaped on Charlotte, I believe they are happy to let HB2 exist for as long as it  possibly can.

[CLT2014]

^ Agree. They already have convinced all rural GOP voters it is 100% Mayor Roberts fault. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by CLT2014

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

^ Agree. They already have convinced all rural GOP voters it is 100% Mayor Roberts fault. 

Then this should only affect the "River District" city of Charlotte voters. 

[HopHead]

I have no doubt that what cltbwimob said is true. NCGA will let HB2 ride out as long as they can so long as it doesn't impact their districts. If there is a silver lining at all in losing out on those jobs, it happened two weeks before the elections. Hopefully anyone and everyone that was on the fence took note. Get out and vote these idiots out of office. 

[vicupstate]

58 minutes ago, HopHead said:

I have no doubt that what cltbwimob said is true. NCGA will let HB2 ride out as long as they can so long as it doesn't impact their districts. If there is a silver lining at all in losing out on those jobs, it happened two weeks before the elections. Hopefully anyone and everyone that was on the fence took note. Get out and vote these idiots out of office. 

EXACTLY.  Power is the only thing they understand and if they lose some on 11/8, they will start to 'see the light'.     

[Third Strike]

I'm most curious to see how well suburban Republicans will do this election, especially since most (all?) supported HB2. We can make an argument that conservatives that live in rural areas don't care about the repercussions of HB2, but I'm willing to bet many in the suburbs do. 

As far as repealing HB2, I honestly wouldn't count on it. It will be removed via courts, and not by the NCGA. Even if every Democrat were to win this November, they would still be short of controlling either house. I also doubt Moore or Berger would even consider it for a vote. I would love to be proven wrong. If they lose big this year, it could continue to be a problem for the 2018 elections, as it would motivate people to vote during the midterms. Not good, especially with the census only a couple of years away.

[urbanlover568]

Gonna drop before and post again. But I am saddened to hear of another major job loss in Charlotte. There are many other companies like Costar and even bigger than that are in jeopardy of relocating to NC. I am hearing my alma mater acquaintances now talking about leaving the state once they graduate for the first time. North Carolina used to be a place of inclusiveness and progress, but now turned into a state of hate and intolerance. Degradation of infrastructure and job losses seems almost inevitable if the same people who enacted HB2 stay voted into office. It's time people including those who never voted before, do our duty to this state and country to go out and vote. Voting theses people out of office will put NC back on track to prosperity. 

[HopHead]

In case you needed more proof that HB2 was the primary factor in Charlotte losing out on CoStar, this article in the CO is pretty telling: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article110775227.html

"The proposal shows that the state would have offered about $8.3 million in tax incentives paid out over the next 12 years for the project, plus about $1.1 million for customized job training."

Basically, they were offered double the monetary incentives that Virgina did and still said no. But hey, HB2 hasn't moved the dial on the NC economy, right? SMH.

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by HopHead

[ChessieCat]

CoStar CEO: North Carolina’s anti-transgender “bathroom” bill was “more controversy than we want to engage in right now” 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/digger/wp/2016/10/27/ceo-explains-precisely-why-companies-are-moving-jobs-to-smaller-cities/?tid=pm_business_pop_b

 

[Dale]

Interesting that they boiled it down to bathrooms. I thought it was about more than bathrooms.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dale said:

Interesting that they boiled it down to bathrooms. I thought it was about more than bathrooms.

Unfortunately thats what it always come down to. Its such an unfortunately nickname. Its so much more than that.

[cjd5050]

Here is my question.  All of the dialog I have read or been a part of seems to end at the idea of voting out Pat McCrory.  High odds that's going to happen.  

So what's next?  The NCGA is still going to look pretty much the same and the power there is not having to answer to their constituents on why companies are not moving in or moving out.  So what's next?

For example, Harry Brown is the Senate Majority leader and his district covers Jones and Onslow counties.  On of THE largest employers in Onslow County is Convergys Customer Management.  Convergys is an outsourced customer service company that has between 500-999 employees in Onslow.  

Why the hell are groups like the HRC out there looking to defund things like Federal money for the Charlotte airport and not out there looking to put public pressure on any and all clients of Convergys?  The top 3 clients for Convergys are AT&T, Comcast and DirectTV.  These 3 account for 35% of their business.  

Why is pressure not being put on these 3 companies to force Convergys to pull out of NC?

 

[urbanlover568]

6 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Here is my question.  All of the dialog I have read or been a part of seems to end at the idea of voting out Pat McCrory.  High odds that's going to happen.  

So what's next?  The NCGA is still going to look pretty much the same and the power there is not having to answer to their constituents on why companies are not moving in or moving out.  So what's next?

For example, Harry Brown is the Senate Majority leader and his district covers Jones and Onslow counties.  On of THE largest employers in Onslow County is Convergys Customer Management.  Convergys is an outsourced customer service company that has between 500-999 employees in Onslow.  

Why the hell are groups like the HRC out there looking to defund things like Federal money for the Charlotte airport and not out there looking to put public pressure on any and all clients of Convergys?  The top 3 clients for Convergys are AT&T, Comcast and DirectTV.  These 3 account for 35% of their business.  

Why is pressure not being put on these 3 companies to force Convergys to pull out of NC?

 

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by mpretori

[cjd5050]

2 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Convergys was effected by HB2. I can't go much further than that. 

Not going to ask you to go further but I don't find any news regarding Convergys and negative outcomes for areas like Onslow County.  

Maybe I am crazy but is it really that much of a reach to think that big corporations like AT&T could be pushed into closing down offices in Onslow County and expanding in Charlotte to show support for Charlotte and resolve against HB2?   

[CLT2014]

22 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Not going to ask you to go further but I don't find any news regarding Convergys and negative outcomes for areas like Onslow County.  

Maybe I am crazy but is it really that much of a reach to think that big corporations like AT&T could be pushed into closing down offices in Onslow County and expanding in Charlotte to show support for Charlotte and resolve against HB2?   

Most likely a corporation would just rather avoid the matter all together if they had a choice - hence CoStar's decision... they are avoiding it all together. Laying people off and firing them over actions of the state government is a lot different than not opening a new office or holding an event somewhere else. Headline will read: "Corporation lays off hundreds of employees over HB2." The response will be overwhelmingly negative for the company, on both sides of the aisle...hence we haven't really seen offices close over HB2, but new opportunities have dropped off a cliff. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by CLT2014

[cjd5050]

17 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Most likely a corporation would just rather avoid the matter all together if they had a choice - hence CoStar's decision... they are avoiding it all together. Laying people off and firing them over actions of the state government is a lot different than not opening a new office or holding an event somewhere else. Headline will read: "Corporation lays off hundreds of employees over HB2." The response will be overwhelmingly negative for the company, on both sides of the aisle...hence we haven't really seen offices close over HB2, but new opportunities have dropped off a cliff. 

I get what most corporations want but most corporations don't want to deal with boycotts and groups like the HRC don't care about causalities.  

The HRC had no issue with asking the FAA to pull funds out of Charlotte due to HB2.  Why wouldn't they encourage their supporters to boycott AT&T unless they pulled out of Onslow?  It's a means to an end.  

[urbanlover568]

48 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Not going to ask you to go further but I don't find any news regarding Convergys and negative outcomes for areas like Onslow County.  

Maybe I am crazy but is it really that much of a reach to think that big corporations like AT&T could be pushed into closing down offices in Onslow County and expanding in Charlotte to show support for Charlotte and resolve against HB2?   

Not every company will put out press statements about these matters. Why do you think their is a tacky for lease sign on 300? Developers are growing desperate. Remember "skeleton buildings". Again, HB2 is having catastrophic damage to the economy. Think of it as a iceberg, we only know the companies on the top 20%, not the bottom 80%.  

[cjd5050]

 

11 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Not every company will put out press statements about these matters. Why do you think their is a tacky for lease sign on 300? Developers are growing desperate. Remember "skeleton buildings". Again, HB2 is having catastrophic damage to the economy. Think of it as a iceberg, we only know the companies on the top 20%, not the bottom 80%.  

Those are Charlotte related items.  The same city that tried to pass the ordinance in the first place.  

I am talking about efforts or actions that would result in issues in the districts for elected officials that passed HB2.  

From what I can see, HB2 is doing no damage to the economy of Eastern NC.  Would love to be proven wrong on that but I don't see it.  I know what's going on in Charlotte.

[urbanlover568]

9 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

 

Those are Charlotte related items.  The same city that tried to pass the ordinance in the first place.  

I am talking about efforts or actions that would result in issues in the districts for elected officials that passed HB2.  

From what I can see, HB2 is doing no damage to the economy of Eastern NC.  Would love to be proven wrong on that but I don't see it.  I know what's going on in Charlotte.

Key words. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by mpretori

[kermit]

^ big beach house rentals in the Outer Banks took a pretty substantial hit this summer. Granted most of these properties are owned by folks from elsewhere.

[cjd5050]

43 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Key words. 

Valid point.  

I'll counter with as someone who is actually following this issue and someone who follows politics...I have not seen anything.  Which means that the 95% of people who don't pay attention at all are seeing nothing as well.  

That's not my problem.  That's the problem of anti-HB2 orgs or people who are working to actually overturn it.  More importantly, people like Harry Brown are not being impacted at all to the average voter.

[kermit]

On 10/25/2016 at 2:46 PM, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Hopefully CO doesn't let me down and substantiates my claims. I can't really support it with evidence without showing my cards. HB2 was the straw that broke the camels back. 

They _finally_ did.

Its a nice piece of journalism from the O, but they certainly took their time with it. I know they were at the mercy of a slow FOIA process but It sure would have been nice to have this before the election.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article115143713.html

Some highlights:

" When the CEO of real estate research firm CoStar Group went to his board to get the go-ahead for final negotiations, he was “broadsided with their pushback over the HB2 issue in Charlotte,” Jeff Edge, a Charlotte Chamber official who was recruiting the company, wrote in a Sept. 20 email to a city economic development official.

CoStar was re-evaulating Charlotte as the choice “due to all of the press and chatter over HB2 in the past week,” Edge writes in the email, which came days after the NCAA and ACC pulled games from the state over the law. “They have re-opened the competition to look more closely at Atlanta and Richmond now.”

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article115143713.html#storylink=cpy

" The emails also indicate the city may have lost another potential headquarters over HB2, but don’t provide details."

Merry Xmas.....

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article115143713.html#storylink=cp

 

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article115143713.html#storylink=c

Edited November 17, 2016 by kermit