The Good News Report

[asthasr]

Every dollar in wages also translates to some portion of that dollar spent locally. These jobs in turn will support a few more service workers and perhaps a white collar job or two. Statistics are important, but the direct effect isn't the only effect.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, asthasr said:

Every dollar in wages also translates to some portion of that dollar spent locally. These jobs in turn will support a few more service workers and perhaps a white collar job or two. Statistics are important, but the direct effect isn't the only effect.

Yes, you guys are correct. Even low end jobs have some benefit to Charlotte.  I am also pleased that amazon is creating a hub in CLT and am especially glad that incentives were not paid. However Charlotte is now big enough (and congested enough) that we need to consider the cost of new employment as well as its benefits. Each new job created in a city with nearly full employment will add another driver to our roads, another student in CMS, another obligation to provide police and fire protection,  etc. The further from a transit-corridor new jobs are created the higher the cost of accommodating them.

Since some jobs create greater benefits to residents than others, at some point we will need to prioritize the jobs that we want to see in Charlotte and protect them from being crowded-out (mostly due to congestion) by less beneficial jobs. Atlanta is a great example of this. It welcomed all jobs, did that make it a healthier city?

TLDR: I am not really saying that new relatively low-wage jobs are bad, but because of their indirect costs I really don't see them as being "good news" either.

[atlrvr]

Piping in here, and not to drag away from the good news, but basically any household that doesn't live in $210k house or a $190k condo/apartment (so think $65k+ household income) is a drag on tax revenue.....even accounting for multiplier effects and additional taxes created indirectly, this is the break-even in Meck Co that needed to offset all the expenses that Kermit mentioned.  The story actually gets worse when we get down to $30k and under median income, as calls for service (fire/police) are materially higher, and reliance on other social service departments increase as well.

I'm supportive of jobs at all pay-scales IF they provide upward mobility for the workers.  But jobs that don't have the ability to grow a workers skill-set or provide meaningful advancement opportunities need to be celebrated cautiously, as there are people that are reliant on these jobs (and that helps the city overall), but developing a national reputation of low-cost workers for call-center/warehouse jobs only encourages outsized growths in these jobs and job seekers, which puts heavy burdens on municipality finances.

[KJHburg]

I am not sure where all this is coming from about warehouse and distribution jobs being bad for the local economy. We have plenty of underemployed people in this region and while this is a job some of YOU may never consider due to the wage  there are plenty of people who would. Nor do I think any job at a Amazon warehouse is a permanent lifetime job that meaning  people working there will NEVER move up in the ranks or ever take a higher pay job somewhere else. There is plenty of mobility in the job market. Honestly all of this smacks of elitism to me. How come Atlanta which is 5-10 times larger and is really growing even bigger as a  distribution center than Charlotte is creating 1000s of high paying tech and professional jobs at the same time?  I just know people who would work at a job like this even temporarily in their life until they can get another  skill or degree. However I believe not everyone is right for college as plumbers and truck drivers can make a lot more than college graduates! (and big distribution centers create plenty of truck driving jobs and they pay more than the quoted break even amount) 

As for lower paying jobs I am guessing some of you  also against new restaurants and retail stores from opening up too. We need jobs of all different wage ranges as there are already people living in this area of all different skill sets. As for being a drag on a tax revenue sorry that argument doesnt work for me. Who is going process your Amazon order and deliver it? 

PS More "bad news" as 950 jobs may be coming to Cabarrus County soon as a distribution center probably for food and/or groceries but who needs food right? 

 

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Lol, on top of that, people are employed. Rather be employed making $12.00 an hour than sitting home drawing unemployment...getting welfare, food stamps etc. to me...THAT is a drain on the economy.

[cjd5050]

2 hours ago, atlrvr said:

Piping in here, and not to drag away from the good news, but basically any household that doesn't live in $210k house or a $190k condo/apartment (so think $65k+ household income) is a drag on tax revenue.....even accounting for multiplier effects and additional taxes created indirectly, this is the break-even in Meck Co that needed to offset all the expenses that Kermit mentioned.  The story actually gets worse when we get down to $30k and under median income, as calls for service (fire/police) are materially higher, and reliance on other social service departments increase as well.

I'm supportive of jobs at all pay-scales IF they provide upward mobility for the workers.  But jobs that don't have the ability to grow a workers skill-set or provide meaningful advancement opportunities need to be celebrated cautiously, as there are people that are reliant on these jobs (and that helps the city overall), but developing a national reputation of low-cost workers for call-center/warehouse jobs only encourages outsized growths in these jobs and job seekers, which puts heavy burdens on municipality finances.

First off, thanks for phrasing it like you did.  Brings some clarity to what both you and Kermit are saying and does make sense when you look at it from household income.

For me I think the perspective of jobs needing to be a pay-scale that's not a drain or provide upward mobility is a faulty.  This is because I don't think *every* job needs to be one that provides a 'living wage' or support a household.  Some people just need or want to work and they value things like schedule flexibility over salary and advancement.  

It's a problem if you develop the call-center workforce and then try to make this workforce head of household income through force.  I don't think it's a problem if you have this workforce as a complement to other industries.

[CLT2014]

I don't think you will find many other employers in West Charlotte that will PRE-PAY 95% of community college expenses for employees looking to go into careers like nursing, aircraft mechanics, computer-aided design, machine tool technologies, medical lab technologies, etc.... up to $12,000 over 4 years. That is an incredible route to better opportunities for many in West Charlotte. 

This job isn't going to draw people from out of town to Charlotte. It is going to bring better jobs to West Charlotte for the people that actually live there. I also understand Amazon has its downsides though and can crowd out local business. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by CLT2014

[Niner National]

3 hours ago, RaleighHeelsfan said:

Lol, on top of that, people are employed. Rather be employed making $12.00 an hour than sitting home drawing unemployment...getting welfare, food stamps etc. to me...THAT is a drain on the economy.

Well, low income jobs like this can incentivize people from rural areas with no job to move into the city, only to realize they can't afford to live here on those wages. They then increase demand for subsidized housing and other government programs in the city, straining local finances.

Both the scenario you present and the one I present are drags on the economy, one at a micro level, the other at a macro level.

[urbanlover568]

1 hour ago, Niner National said:

Well, low income jobs like this can incentivize people from rural areas with no job to move into the city, only to realize they can't afford to live here on those wages. They then increase demand for subsidized housing and other government programs in the city, straining local finances.

Both the scenario you present and the one I present are drags on the economy, one at a micro level, the other at a macro level.

In reality Minimum Wage is the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs. In 2015, for example, a person on minimum wage will need to work 66 hours to make the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs in North Carolina. I think we are not addressing the elephant in the room here. If the factories that move here have higher wages than the minimum currently in place, i'm all for it. Amazon seems like they are trying to do the right thing and i applaud them for that. Their warehouses also look aesthetically pleasing. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by mpretori

[urbanlover568]

4 hours ago, RaleighHeelsfan said:

Lol, on top of that, people are employed. Rather be employed making $12.00 an hour than sitting home drawing unemployment...getting welfare, food stamps etc. to me...THAT is a drain on the economy.

Just a FYI, even at $12 a hour, you still qualify for food stamps and benefits. Speaks to how high the minimum wage should be set.

[jednc]

2 hours ago, mpretori said:

Just a FYI, even at $12 a hour, you still qualify for food stamps and benefits. Speaks to how high the minimum wage should be set.

You aren't meant to support yourself or a family on minimum wage jobs. That's not their purpose. The person working at McDonald's isn't supposed to be paid enough to support a family. She's supposed to be a teen-ager or a retired person supplementing her income. This is why so many people think minimum wage should be $15/hr, because they think it's supposed to be enough to live on. It is NOT.

[tarwater]

3 minutes ago, jednc said:

You aren't meant to support yourself or a family on minimum wage jobs. That's not their purpose. The person working at McDonald's isn't supposed to be paid enough to support a family. She's supposed to be a teen-ager or a retired person supplementing her income. This is why so many people think minimum wage should be $15/hr, because they think it's supposed to be enough to live on. It is NOT.

Walk into McDonalds and see how many teenagers and "retired" people are working there. We can say how things are "supposed" to be all day long, but it doesn't change how things actually are. Lots and lots of people try out of necessity to support a family on minimum wage, and they can't do it. Where are they all supposed to work instead? Bank of America? 

I have worked in the CLT Amazon warehouse. It sucks. It's hard work and low pay. And you're not allowed to work full-time, so Amazon can save a penny at their workers' expense. Screw Amazon. As they are now, they don't belong in civilized society, much less Charlotte. 

[CLTranspo]

Charlotte saw the highest growth in millennial population in the country from 2005-2015. Helps explain why so many apartments have continued to fill up. 

https://www.apartmentlist.com/rentonomics/millennial-population-trends/

 

[urbanlover568]

2 hours ago, jednc said:

You aren't meant to support yourself or a family on minimum wage jobs. That's not their purpose. The person working at McDonald's isn't supposed to be paid enough to support a family. She's supposed to be a teen-ager or a retired person supplementing her income. This is why so many people think minimum wage should be $15/hr, because they think it's supposed to be enough to live on. It is NOT.

Tell that to my friend who came out of a abusive relationship with her ex husband and supports her 2 children working 60 hours a week and still needs help.

[Nick2]

Snyder's Lance is expanding in Charlotte beating out Stockton, Caliofornia and Columbus, GA. 130 new jobs added averaging 45k. They range from office jobs to machine workers.

Printful just cut the ribbon on their new 100k sq ft Charlotte facility a couple weeks ago. They're on track to reach their estimated 200 new jobs at their facility in charlotte by 2018. They also have said they're committed to expanding here over other locations. This is shown by the fact that this new facility is much larger than their current HQ out in California. It's expected for them to expand in Charlotte in the future and they are aiming to have 70% of their printing done in Charlotte's location. 

This company has grown by an average of 10% per month. They cited Charlottes ideal location and strong workforce with the state's background in textiles as their main reasons for choosing Charlotte.

[cltbwimob]

Re mpretori and tarwater: Jednc is not saying that it doesn't happen; there are plenty of people who do try to scrape by with minimum wage employment at a fast food restaurant or a retail establishment.  What he is saying though is that a minimum wage job is not supposed to be a career.  For some people minimum wage employment may be their only option as of now, but the way to fix the problem is not changing minimum wage laws to living wage laws, as it could create massive wrinkles in the labor market.

Edited November 29, 2016 by cltbwimob

[urbanlover568]

4 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

^^^He's not saying that it doesn't happen-there are plenty of people who do try to scrape by with minimum wage employment at a fast food restaurant or a retail establishment.  What he is saying though is that a minimum wage job is not supposed to be a career.  For some people that may be their only option as of now, but the way to fix that is not changing minimum wage laws to living wage laws, as it could create massive wrinkles in the labor market.

The way to fix it is to increase the wages of the blue collar workers. compare the ceo's paychecks at Costco and sams club. Costcos ceo gets paid a fraction and the workers at the bottom get higher wages. That's why I only shop at costco. but go ahead and justify a ceo getting 200 million a year and tell my friend whose children don't know where thier meal will come from and tell her to go to school working 60 hours.

[cltbwimob]

12 minutes ago, mpretori said:

The way to fix it is to increase the wages of the blue collar workers. compare the ceo's paychecks at Costco and sams club. Costcos ceo gets paid a fraction and the workers at the bottom get higher wages. That's why I only shop at costco. but go ahead and justify a ceo getting 200 million a year and tell my friend whose children don't know where thier meal will come from and tell her to go to school working 60 hours.

Don't get me wrong, I think minimum wage should come up some to be more in line with changes in inflation.  And dont even get me started on anything related to Walmart/Sams, as I believe it is one of the biggest reasons we have seen the middle class gutted.  What I am suggesting though is that changing minimum wage laws to be living wage laws and paying all minimum wage employees $15/hour is a recipe for economic disaster in so many ways.  It will fundamentally alter our economy in ways I don't think people can even begin to anticipate in the short run, and in the long run prices will just rise to a level commensurate to the new household income levels leaving minimum wage employees in no better position than they were to begin with.

[15895]

11 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I am not sure where all this is coming from about warehouse and distribution jobs being bad for the local economy. We have plenty of underemployed people in this region and while this is a job some of YOU may never consider due to the wage  there are plenty of people who would. Nor do I think any job at a Amazon warehouse is a permanent lifetime job that meaning  people working there will NEVER move up in the ranks or ever take a higher pay job somewhere else.  

 

 

It's actually a little sad. I had to work as a retail manager for a couple years until I was able to go to College. Made $12 an hour. Only government assistance I got (not that I even really researched) were pell grants and student loans for college. I lived comfy, and I appreciated the wage, etc. It paid my rent while I went to college and now I just got accepted a position for a bank uptown. 

 

But I think it's important to recognize how important these jobs can be for people. They may not pay a lot, but still. These kind of jobs are great stepping stones.

[cjd5050]

9 hours ago, mpretori said:

Tell that to my friend who came out of a abusive relationship with her ex husband and supports her 2 children working 60 hours a week and still needs help.

Your friends situation does not change the reality that minimum wage jobs are not meant to support a family with 2 children.  There are tools and programs to help people like your friend in situations like this and maybe there needs to be more but that is not the same as raising a minimum wage to the levels where these tools and programs are not needed.  Which is what your post seems to indicate.  

I'll add that it's both too typical and quite unproductive that you frame the conversation on the minimum wage between CEOs of massive corporations and 2 kids looking for their next meal.  The reality is the issue is much more nuanced than that.  But since you paraded out your friend to support your argument, do you mind expanding on just where she works those 60 hours?  Where is her ex husband and what is being done to collect support from him?  What about the employment skills or circumstances that your friend that contains her to just minimum wage employment?  

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by cjd5050

[Nick2]

With inflation, minimum wage would be around 9.50 or so. I think that raising it to 10.00 even over the next few years is perfectly reasonable for the nation-wide minimum wage. But that $15 one would kill of many small businesses since their profit margins are already so low. Walmart would survive. Mom and pop's dinner or the neighborhood grocery store will not.

[jednc]

12 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

Re mpretori and tarwater: Jednc is not saying that it doesn't happen; there are plenty of people who do try to scrape by with minimum wage employment at a fast food restaurant or a retail establishment.  What he is saying though is that a minimum wage job is not supposed to be a career.  For some people minimum wage employment may be their only option as of now, but the way to fix the problem is not changing minimum wage laws to living wage laws, as it could create massive wrinkles in the labor market.

 

Once again cltwimob, you have said it better than I could have (or in this case did). This exactly.

 

This attitude isn't meant to be harsh toward anyone working at McDonald's or any other minimum wage job. They just aren't meant to be career jobs (unless you're in management, etc).

[cjd5050]

2 hours ago, Nick2 said:

With inflation, minimum wage would be around 9.50 or so. I think that raising it to 10.00 even over the next few years is perfectly reasonable for the nation-wide minimum wage. But that $15 one would kill of many small businesses since their profit margins are already so low. Walmart would survive. Mom and pop's dinner or the neighborhood grocery store will not.

What's often lost, or not even discussed at all, in the conversation of an employees hourly pay is the fully loaded labor rate for the employer.  This is mainly because so few people actually deal with or need to concern themselves with this number.  The loaded rate includes hard costs like federal and state taxes, benefits, workman's compensation and paid time off -- along with soft costs like training, payroll/benefits/HR administration and the need to over staff.   

It's one thing when an employee at a large employer calls in sick or takes various levels of personal time as staffing an operation with 48 when you typically use 50, the 4% is not an issue.  However, when you staff with 5 and 1 is out, that 20% is a huge hit.  People don't want to concern themselves with these details because it's an easier conversation to have when you talk about a single shallow number of how much someone gets applied to their paycheck per hour.  

[RaleighHeelsfan]

On top of everything else. If you raise minimum wage to $15.00, what about the people already making $15.00 - $20.00 an hour who started at wages like $4.50 an hour? Do you think that is fair? Those people will then strike for more money. It is a never ending cycle. Yes, minumum wage should be raised some...$1.00 at most.

[CLT704]

Oooohhhh, wow!! $1 extra! I agree that $15 is too high, but 1 extra dollar?