Misc. Uptown Projects/News

[elrodvt]

I feel that way too and went to look at the various options again a couple months ago. Build me a decent residential condo building and I'm there  !  Looked at Arlington and it felt ghetto to me. Don't want to live in a stick built building ever again. Nothing left?

[cltbwimob]

8 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Just wait there's two big things in the works in southend that'll help breath new life into the urban area. Uptown isn't the future, the surrounding neighborhoods are. Even with the splashy names I've seen attached to Lincoln Harris, I'd be excited for Camden, Tremont, South Tryon (in southend) and South Blvd around Atherton. Going to be a new place in 2020.


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I would think with 250k sq ft of retail at LH, 200+k sq ft at Brooklyn Village, and a host of developments with 10k-60k sq ft of retail along Stonewall, Uptown will be fairly well to do in terms of livability/walkability in the near future.  Is that a poor assumption? 

[Guest]

I feel that way too and went to look at the various options again a couple months ago. Build me a decent residential condo building and I'm there  !  Looked at Arlington and it felt ghetto to me. Don't want to live in a stick built building ever again. Nothing left?

That's what's nuts, Charlotte has a record low housing stock, 1.5 months of inventory!!!! I know one developer trying to make condos happen, but financing is a tough road. I guess southend town houses are out of the question? Pretty sure all are stick built. Insane to ask 800k for a stick built row house on Carson across from a suburban diner.


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[elrodvt]

5 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

That's what's nuts, Charlotte has a record low housing stock, 1.5 months of inventory!!!! I know one developer trying to make condos happen, but financing is a tough road. I guess southend town houses are out of the question? Pretty sure all are stick built. Insane to ask 800k for a stick built row house on Carson across from a suburban diner.


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Yeah lots of stairs don't work for us.  I agree those places near the diner, that partly burned!, don't give me a good resale feeling. Especially at that price and at the top of an economic cycle.

[Owenorange]

22 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Just wait there's two big things in the works in southend that'll help breath new life into the urban area. Uptown isn't the future, the surrounding neighborhoods are. Even with the splashy names I've seen attached to Lincoln Harris, I'd be excited for Camden, Tremont, South Tryon (in southend) and South Blvd around Atherton. Going to be a new place in 2020.


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Except for Elizabeth, which seems doomed to an eternity of gradual hospital capital campaigns. Maybe Anthropologie can sponsor the new pediatry outpatient center for Novant and put a boutique in the waiting area. :-/

[elrodvt]

9 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

I would think with 250k sq ft of retail at LH, 200+k sq ft at Brooklyn Village, and a host of developments with 10k-60k sq ft of retail along Stonewall, Uptown will be fairly well to do in terms of livability/walkability in the near future.  Is that a poor assumption? 

The architectural equivalent of vaporware at this point. Other than whole foods which is a big plus.

[Guest]

I would think with 250k sq ft of retail at LH, 200+k sq ft at Brooklyn Village, and a host of developments with 10k-60k sq ft of retail along Stonewall, Uptown will be fairly well to do in terms of livability/walkability in the near future.  Is that a poor assumption? 

It not a poor assumption at all. I think stonewall is on the cusp of something special, I just don't think the Tryon St between Duke and BofA Corp is going to see much outside of lobby makeovers for Swanky regional chains ever, to be completely honest.

Stonewall has a small fighting chance, Tryon Place will be a powerhouse for entertainment and dining, if any of their LOIs are intact after 3.5 years Lincoln Harris should fare the same success. It gets iffy once you pass under the light rail. Stonewall Station will be fine but frankly it'll be basically single use retail, Whole Foods and whole body, woo, Home2Suites will have 15k sq feet, likely all restaurant and bars, then northwood ravin, more restaurants and bars, likely regional chains clamoring for a piece if the action. The rest of stonewall depends on how soon Brooklyn village delivers anything of consequence (2020-22 at best). The biggest detriment to Stonewall is the other side of the street.

Excuse the big run on sentence, wine, honesty, and iPad typing sucks.


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[Guest]

To add to the rant...

 

I was in town last weekend and I left unconvinced that Charlotte can even do PED. Camden Galley had the best damn opportunity, and I watched it be built with that 30 foot setback. I was giddy to think they were going to put in a strip of outdoor seating, and I mean giddy. Then I found myself leaving Pop the Top with[mention=29263]Jayvee[/mention] and tripping over a stupid useless planter. Planters look pretty, but giving people a spot to mix and mingle on nice days adds vibe, flowers don't. I'd be okay with my inability to walk 3 abreast if it was because of a patio. A planter box, I'm less forgiving.

 

Sedgefield is a massive let down, can't believe there are still power lines above it. Also can't believe how antiseptic and characterless it is. Makes me worry about Atherton being a detailless blank wall.

 

So with all these things considered... this is why I'm skeptical about Stonewall, Charlotte hasn't figured out Pedestrian Scale.

 

This is why I'm excited about Southend, because these guys have to come up with new creative ideas to make the old industrial buildings they are buying better.

 

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[SydneyCarton]

2 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

It not a poor assumption at all. I think stonewall is on the cusp of something special....

Excuse the big run on sentence, wine, honesty, and iPad typing sucks.


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Great analysis.

P.S.: Run ons can be good.  Consider James Joyce's final chapter in Ulysses.

[jjwilli]

12 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Just wait there's two big things in the works in southend that'll help breath new life into the urban area. Uptown isn't the future, the surrounding neighborhoods are. Even with the splashy names I've seen attached to Lincoln Harris, I'd be excited for Camden, Tremont, South Tryon (in southend) and South Blvd around Atherton. Going to be a new place in 2020.


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Your comment makes it seem like these are not publicly known projects that are in the works. So it's not the Rail Yard, Atherton Project, West Elm Hotel, or Design Center projects. Correct?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, jjwilli said:

Your comment makes it seem like these are not publicly known projects that are in the works. So it's not the Rail Yard, Atherton Project, West Elm Hotel, or Design Center projects. Correct?

Its not that its not publicly known. Their full scopes aren't publicly known

[ES Charlotte]

15 hours ago, elrodvt said:

I feel that way too and went to look at the various options again a couple months ago. Build me a decent residential condo building and I'm there  !  Looked at Arlington and it felt ghetto to me. Don't want to live in a stick built building ever again. Nothing left?

Up to this point condo prices haven't caught up to land/construction prices. See 1Brevard... It was priced properly to turn a profit, absurdly inaccurate for this market. 

[elrodvt]

Yeah I just don't get that. Our new high rise in one of Denvers top locations was a lot less than they were asking (4+ year old reference though). I can't imagine land costs are even close here? Certainly the Charlotte downtown area is a much less desirable place to live and has a lot more open land left to develop. On top of that the 1 Brevard location was far from prime with the bus station being a huge negative.

I think we're at the top of the cycle now and prices have strayed far into the speculative range. Possibly people are hanging on hoping to get a flush business tower developer to buy their land.

[ES Charlotte]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

Yeah I just don't get that. Our new high rise in one of Denvers top locations was a lot less than they were asking (4+ year old reference though). I can't imagine land costs are even close here? Certainly the Charlotte downtown area is a much less desirable place to live and has a lot more open land left to develop. On top of that the 1 Brevard location was far from prime with the bus station being a huge negative.

I think we're at the top of the cycle now and prices have strayed far into the speculative range. Possibly people are hanging on hoping to get a flush business tower developer to buy their land.

I know of one developer trying to make something happen and for some reason he's enjoys a solid risk. Many other developers have been interested and bowed out bc they can't make the numbers work. 

I'm guessing the uptown market will plateau for a short period while other markets take a big hit at the end of this cycle. And while the others are down, Charlotte prices will slowly continue to creep up due to the lack of inventory. If that does indeed happen, I predict the next cycle could be reminiscent of the 1st condo boom we had. 

I've been wrong. A lot. 

[KJHburg]

My opinion is watch for a condo conversion from apartments. This is starting to happen in Atlanta and with NC laws leaving condo developers responsible for construction defects for 7 years it makes conversions more likely. I still think the Catalyst or the Element one day will be condos as the Catalyst was built that way. Dittos for the Vue but it has  so many units there. There is an appetite for condos uptown but only now have prices gone back to the levels they were when they were built. An example of that is the Avenue. Prices have fully recovered there not quite at the peak. The problem is very high construction costs right now. We need to start off with a smaller project less than 40-50 units maybe atop a hotel or something. Most condo towers going up in Atlanta and there are only a few are more boutique buildings. The Atlantic a 46 story tower built as condos then converted to apartments now being back converted to condos is underway right now in Atlantic Station in midtown Atlanta. People got really burned here in Charlotte with condos both at the original Park Center condos (now Skye) and more famously at the Epicentre condo tower where 100s of thousands of deposits were lost. I would be very weary of putting up any kind of deposit especially with a developer unless it was in a NC certified trust account. 

[asthasr]

On 7/13/2017 at 10:05 PM, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

People always lament the loss of larger buildings, and people on this board like to quip that Charlotte never had larger buildings. The truth is, to me the most valuable part of the city isn't the towers. It's the Broughton, and King Streets of the world, something Charlotte had 20 or so square blocks of. The line from 1929 is heart breaking.

What makes me mad about it is that Charlotte kept tearing down buildings well after Jane Jacobs, well after the bad examples of Atlanta and Los Angeles. The one thing that might save us to some degree is that we built our suburbs before we could build more freeways, thank God.

The irritating thing is that "making an urban place" is not some secret formula. Random streets in Asian cities manage it with buildings no taller than three or four floors; the "suburbs" of French rust belt cities manage it; even some of our older American cities manage it. And yet here we are with pretty towers sitting in parking lots. Yes, it's changing, but the sheer idiocy of it hurts me sometimes.

[elrodvt]

5 hours ago, KJHburg said:

My opinion is watch for a condo conversion from apartments. This is starting to happen in Atlanta and with NC laws leaving condo developers responsible for construction defects for 7 years it makes conversions more likely. I still think the Catalyst or the Element one day will be condos as the Catalyst was built that way. Dittos for the Vue but it has  so many units there. There is an appetite for condos uptown but only now have prices gone back to the levels they were when they were built. An example of that is the Avenue. Prices have fully recovered there not quite at the peak. The problem is very high construction costs right now. We need to start off with a smaller project less than 40-50 units maybe atop a hotel or something. Most condo towers going up in Atlanta and there are only a few are more boutique buildings. The Atlantic a 46 story tower built as condos then converted to apartments now being back converted to condos is underway right now in Atlantic Station in midtown Atlanta. People got really burned here in Charlotte with condos both at the original Park Center condos (now Skye) and more famously at the Epicentre condo tower where 100s of thousands of deposits were lost. I would be very weary of putting up any kind of deposit especially with a developer unless it was in a NC certified trust account. 

Other than the VUE those units are very small for conversions. I haven't been in them but I kinda doubt the fittings etc.. are top notch. Not sure it would work too well without a lot of work.

[NYCLT]

Thanks for the input guys just a few questions from a novice:

6 hours ago, KJHburg said:

People got really burned here in Charlotte with condos both at the original Park Center condos (now Skye) and more famously at the Epicentre condo tower where 100s of thousands of deposits were lost.

Can you provide some input on this - people put down for condos that were never built and didn't get that back?

1 hour ago, asthasr said:

What makes me mad about it is that Charlotte kept tearing down buildings well after Jane Jacobs, well after the bad examples of Atlanta and Los Angeles. The one thing that might save us to some degree is that we built our suburbs before we could build more freeways, thank God.

Is this to say that the "suburb" craze hit late for us comparatively to other cities so we might not need to build crazy freeways to account for them ala Atlanta, Houston, etc.?

[KJHburg]

6 hours ago, NYCLT said:

Thanks for the input guys just a few questions from a novice:

Can you provide some input on this - people put down for condos that were never built and didn't get that back?

at 210 Trade at the Epicenter when that 50 story tower was not built I am pretty sure all people lost  their deposits and we are talking millions of dollars. Dittos for the Park condos which is where the Skye condos are today. Deposits as in many states can be used by the developer and this happened in both cases here and both times people lost it all. I know people who did lose money at the time in both buildings. 

7 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Other than the VUE those units are very small for conversions. I haven't been in them but I kinda doubt the fittings etc.. are top notch. Not sure it would work too well without a lot of work.

Yes the Vue are larger but the Catalyst by Bearden park was built as condos by the Novare group who built the Avenue. They had even sold some then decided because the market was tanking to convert the rest to apartments and then later they sold the whole building. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by KJHburg

[Dale]

Those of you who bemoan this vast historic stock that was demolished ... where was it ? Was it Brooklyn ? Old photos of Brooklyn looked ghastly to me, third world.

 

 

 

 

 

[cltbwimob]

49 minutes ago, Dale said:

Those of you who bemoan this vast historic stock that was demolished ... where was it ? Was it Brooklyn ? Old photos of Brooklyn looked ghastly to me, third world.

 

 

 

 

 

http://cmhpf.org/ImportantLostPropsIndex.htm

Here is a link from the historical society on important lost properties (I.e. Ones that had received designation as historical properties but were destroyed).  Mind you these were only the ones to receive a designation.  There were plenty of other interesting old buildings that never received a designation that were also destroyed.  The loss of the Indepence Bldg and Hotel Charlotte are most saddening to me.

 

[Dale]

Yes, I do recall the Independence and the Hotel Charlotte. I'm just a bit puzzled because old street shots of Tryon and Trade look quite unremarkable.

[cltbwimob]

Check out this old thread.  Old photos of Tryon St. Make it look pretty remarkable to me.

 

[asthasr]

The "remarkableness" of a city is pretty irrelevant. Great places are places where people want to go: restaurants, markets, clubs, galleries, barber shops, bowling alleys, cinemas, ballparks... Some of these places are expensive and wildly profitable and can afford prime land and new buildings. Others aren't and can't. They rely on cheaper building stock, older parts of cities, and so on. Lacking these "bones" is what causes Charlotte to feel "sterile" to many people: we don't have many places that are unique to us because chains and corporations are the only ones who can afford our uniformly new, expensive building stock.

[asthasr]

8 hours ago, NYCLT said:

Thanks for the input guys just a few questions from a novice:

Can you provide some input on this - people put down for condos that were never built and didn't get that back?

Is this to say that the "suburb" craze hit late for us comparatively to other cities so we might not need to build crazy freeways to account for them ala Atlanta, Houston, etc.?

More that, when it hit us, a lot of land was already fully built out, so political will for eminent domain and greenfield development was less powerful than the property owners who already live there; plus, by the time Charlotte really got going, a lot of funds had already dried up because lessons were (slowly) being learned. I am hopeful that will help Charlotte densify and improve transit as we grow instead of following the paths of Atlanta, Houston, and LA.