Belk Place: Carolina Theater and Hotel Intercontinental

[HopHead]

Really? What percentage of the population of Charlotte do you think can afford to live in the The Encore? When even millionares can't be sold on the idea, then I would conclude it to be an inefficient project. BTW, downtown Charlotte is not the center of an 80 mile radius of this area. You just swept up Winston-Salem, Hickory, parts of the Columbia metro, and numerous other cities and towns that get by quite nicely without their people having to travel into downtown Charlotte. My guess if that if you asked them what they thought of a highrise that was built for automobiles to ride up to the top of the building, they would call it a stupid and wasteful idea.

I'm not sure how you can draw the conclusion that all those people would call a highrise that's built to have cars ride up to the top of the building a stupid idea. The question is more about affordability. I think more people on this board believe it's a very unique and interesting idea, especially given the fact it would go on top of a historic building in a city where it's rare to reuse an existing structure. Heck, if I could afford it, I'd love to live in one of these places.

[Andyc545]

I'm not sure how you can draw the conclusion that all those people would call a highrise that's built to have cars ride up to the top of the building a stupid idea. The question is more about affordability. I think more people on this board believe it's a very unique and interesting idea, especially given the fact it would go on top of a historic building in a city where it's rare to reuse an existing structure. Heck, if I could afford it, I'd love to live in one of these places.

Thank you. That was simply an unjustified and nonfactual justification that I also see the other side on. I think it was a creative idea given the amount of space and enjoyed the building and it's elements. People that I showed this to were impressed with its concept.

[ohioaninSC]

Thank you. That was simply an unjustified and nonfactual justification that I also see the other side on. I think it was a creative idea given the amount of space and enjoyed the building and it's elements. People that I showed this to were impressed with its concept.

I know if I had thay type of money, I'd live in one of those units. It would be great imo, b/c if I lived in Uptown, I'd still want to have my car to go on trips and whatnot. Like it or not, a car is still a necesity if you plan on traveling anywhere outside of Uptown or a destination on the LTR or Bus lines.

[monsoon]

Why don't you let buyers be the judge of that. Supply and Demand. ....

I am more than happy to let that happen. I take note, they don't have enough buyers to build the place. I rest my case.

[monsoon]

I'm not sure how you can draw the conclusion that all those people would call a highrise that's built to have cars ride up to the top of the building a stupid idea.

Well I did draw that conclusion. The indignation expressed here at such a notion isn't a reason for me to believe otherwise. Now if you want to explain why building a highrise for automobiles is such a good idea then I willing to listen.

[Charlotte_native]

I take note, they don't have enough buyers to build the place. I rest my case.

But one must consider the extraordinary circumstances in the economy this particular year, most of last year, and probably next year. Hard to decide what a regular market might do with a building like this when it is hard to sell a starter home right now. There aren't enough buyers to purchase much of what is on the market, regardless of price point or locale.

[Andyc545]

I am more than happy to let that happen. I take note, they don't have enough buyers to build the place. I rest my case.

We are talking about a concept, a solution to a stubborn property, and residential and historical space in uptown versus the reality of a recession and a crumpled housing market that has had an effect on much more than this property. Case not rested.

Edit: Sorry C_N, just saw your post .

Edited December 16, 2008 by Andyc545

[atlrvr]

Now if you want to explain why building a highrise for automobiles is such a good idea then I willing to listen.

I suggest the facts that uptown land prices makes surface parking cost prohibitive and that surface parking also makes larger areas of impermiable soils, which is ecologically unfriendly. Both reasons (economic and environmental) make a strong case for auto high-rises. These facts haven't gone unnoticed by developers or planners, as parking decks have been around for over 80 years.

If you are speaking to this particular application, then it has been well recited that it was structurally impossible to build a traditional ramp/deck for parking on this site without demolishing the theatre on the site. Do you have something against the Carolina Theatre where you wish for its demise? All other options have been considered. Other options include around $20M-$30M in public funding to restore the theatre with no highrise on the site, or the sale of the site with the implied intent that the theatre be demolished.

I just don't understand the disdain of creative engineering. Perhaps you would applaud them if they built 20 "executive" single-family homes in a more suburban location?

[Charlotte_native]

I just don't understand the disdain of creative engineering. Perhaps you would applaud them if they built 20 "executive" single-family homes in a more suburban location?

Exactly. If everything built had to fit the criteria of being necessary, then all the McMansions on the golf courses and lakes around town wouldn't be there. If specific and definitive need must be in place for exactly what is built, then much of what is all over the city wouldn't qualify. Generally people build and/or buy what they both want and what they can afford. It isn't based on random factors that put a third party's personal opinion of what is necessary or personally felt to be better by a third party.

There is no need to live on the lake. There is no need to live 20 miles from where you work. There is no need to have a view of the 3rd fairway or some random pond. But I don't hold it against those who want it. These same properties are also languishing on the market just as some uptown condos are.

Bottom line: It is a bad sales market right now no matter what you are offering.

For me I'm just happy someone stepped up and is trying to make the preservation of an amazaing theater part of a difficult project. If that takes hoisting cars up to the units, so be it. If there aren't enough buyers right now, so be that too...but I hope it works out -- i want to see shows in the place and I love the architecture of the new building...if it happens it will be an amazing addition to Tryon Street.

I also applaud Pursuit for doing what so many others won't attempt -- preservation -- The Trust, AME Grace, and this are probably more difficult than most developers would attempt -- we always talk about the bulldozer and our disappearing landmarks. Thanks to these guys from being different.

EDIT: I just realized that professional fishermen or those that fish for a living might need to live on the lake!

Edited December 16, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[Windsurfer]

EDIT: I just realized that professional fishermen or those that fish for a living might need to live on the lake!

Or windsurf. ;-) It IS a need, btw.

I also live in a high rise. Oh well, so much for my practical lifestyle.

[illinijazz]

The banks are not shutting down with people and businesses that are credit worthy and who are not getting into marginal deals. In addition, the smaller banks and credit unions, which have not participated in the shady unethical dealings of the large banks, are continuing to do business as usual. If you go into one of these places and meet their requirements for a loan, you will get said loan.

Now on the subject of the Encore. I would guess that not many financial institutions would deem that to be a credit worthy enterprise since it this is a project that makes no sense for Charlotte. It is a demonstration of excessive wealth in a place where such demonstrations are now subject to derision and criticism. It's become the Hummer of housing and I suspect that is the real reason it won't be built.

Yes, banks are shutting down people and businesses that are credit-worthy and who are not getting into marginal deals. I know this from a very painful first-hand basis. If Encore can't find financing, and if I could still afford the ranch I'd it that they can't, it's not because it's a "demonstration of excessive wealth" but because banks just aren't going to loan to anyone for anything.

Encore required a 5% down payment and that was called a "sale" or "contract". To any lender, those aren't worth the paper they're written on. I know people that can't get refi for homes they've lived in and made payments on for years.

[atlrvr]

Pursuit Group is asking for another extension on their contract to buy the property from the city. The current contract expires at the end of this month. If the city approves the extension next week, they will have until July to close. So far they have spent $225k in non-refundable deposits to the city. They claim to have 70% of the financing in place and are in negotiations for the remainder though admit it is much harder than anticipated.

I'm glad to see they are still trying to get this done, though I don't see things getting any easier for them.

Apparantly there is another potential bidder for the property willing to pay the appraised $4M value of the property, but will demolish the theatre.

[uptownliving]

In light of the economy I think it is fair to give Pursuit until July to see if they can get financing lined up.

[rockhilljames]

I'd hate to come so close and still see the theater demolished!

[Charlotte_native]

I'd hate to come so close and still see the theater demolished!

I've been in the Theatre and would really hate to see it go. It's worth whatever it takes with an adjoining project to save this piece of our history. We really could use, regardless of the historic aspect, this type of venue uptown as well.

[atlrvr]

This project now appears on life-support. As a last ditch, the developers are asking the city to sell them the site, not contingent on having financing in place, which would give the some flexibility on timing. Otherwise, the most recent option on the parcel ends in July and they will be out a lot of cash and lose the contract to buy the site. I believe, the developer would commit to sticking with the current design as a contingent to getting ownership of the site.

[Norm2]

they won't be able to build in this economy, which is unfortunate.

[rockhilljames]

No car elevators. This project was my favorite, as it would preserve the Carolina Theater. I hope it can somehow make it through.

[tozmervo]

It sounds like the city may be giving Pursuit Group a two-year reprieve on financing options.

News 14's clip has some video of the interior - I wonder, how many did the Carolina Theater seat?

[mallguy]

It sounds like the city may be giving Pursuit Group a two-year reprieve on financing options.

Hopefully the developers are being charged a market-rate price for an extension of that option- with teachers being laid off and other problems around Charlotte, I strongly object to my tax dollars (as a property owner in Charlotte) going to bail out a real estate developer.

[orulz]

Hopefully the developers are being charged a market-rate price for an extension of that option- with teachers being laid off and other problems around Charlotte, I strongly object to my tax dollars (as a property owner in Charlotte) going to bail out a real estate developer.

Not sure what the rate is for the extension of the option, but you could also frame it as your tax dollars going to preserve and eventually restore the Carolina Theater.

[atlrvr]

This extension will be free. They've given the city $250,000 for the initial downpayments and previous extensions. I'm not so much bothered by this, because it really changes nothing. Putting the property out for bid is a foolish option at this point. Property prices have declined, and no other use is likely to get financing either, so if not Pursuit, then the most likely result is a demolished theatre, a depressed sales price, and still no new development.

The city reports still only 8 of 20 units sold, but allegedly all 5 floors of commercial office space have been pre-sold.

[dubone]

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte.../24/story6.html

There is story in the CBJ about the option extension and adds a little bit of backstory, where the developer is having some issues with an office condo next to Emerson Joseph.

I love that Pursuit is still trying to make Encore happen, but I am nervous that the request to allow them to close on the land would put the theater at risk if the project doesn't eventually happen.

[InitialD]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think at last night's city council meetings it was decided to just give a 45 day extension and then reevaluate the option?

[uptownliving]

You got it right...sounds like some technicallity came up at the last minute. So staff needs to work that out and bring it back to City Council.