Northlake Mall

[monsoon]

how strict is huntersville being just over the city limits?  i'm imagining northlake as this pinevillish world in a few years and then you cross into huntersville and the roads shrink and there are trees and crickets.    is huntersville planning to participate in the economic growth in this area, such as allowing subdivisions or are they going to try to contain it within charlotte limits?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huntersville is pretty strict about restricting sprawl. Basically the town has 3 major zoning areas. Urban, Transitional and Rural. There are some more complicated overlays, but the goal is to concentrate development in parts of the city and retain the rural character of other parts. It is some of the most progressive zoning in the state. The reason of course it to keep from becoming something like Pineville or suburban Charlotte.

I think a great deal of the development resulting from the mall being built will probably stop at the Huntersville-Mt Holly Rd. in terms subdivisions. They simply won't be approved with the current zoing restrictions. However there is a rather large business park that is of the same quality as RTP or URP called the Huntersville Business Park. I see it benefiting greatly from as more businesses plan to to the area since it basically lies between the town of Huntersville and the Mall. I have to cut through it to get to the back entrance to Northlake. In addition to the business park, I have heard that Huntersville has been negotiating with the state to take over the old abandoned prison that also lies between the city and the Mall, so it can be converted to a city park.

Long term Harris Blvd will extend beyond Huntersville-Mt. Holly road and continue on to the Lake to terminate onto Hwy 73. This road is becoming a major corridor that runs from Lincolnton thru the Lake Norman area and on to Concord. 300,000 people are supposed to be living on this corridor in the next 20 years so long term the mall area may change dramatically. They have a chance here to not repeat the mistakes in Pineville, Ballentyne and other parts of SE Charlotte where the development is so bad, but it will take some political will to halt it that may not be there.

[StevenRocks]

My logistical problems somehow reversed theselves for a day and I ended up going to Northlake late Friday afternoon.

Wow

My gut was saying that this mall was going to be a lot like Carolina Place, but it was substantially better.

The interior design is really nice, the tenant mix is exceptional for a new mall, and the Hecht's and Belk stores are a lot fresher than I expected.

monsoon's assesment was right on the mark, though as an out-of-towner, I'm still headed to SouthPark first if I drive down to shop. Sad to say, Appatone's theory is somewhat true.

Edited September 17, 2005 by StevenRocks

[DigitalSky]

I hope you put that camera phone to good use

[monsoon]

Did you travel from Va to see this mall Stevenrocks?

Anyway, I always thought that Carolina Place just wasn't an interesting place to go to. It is really a 1970-1980s mall design and one of the last to be built of that type in this part of the state.

I've never seen a mall of the caliber of Eastland fall so far and so fast. It was once the premier mall in the Carolinas. It is sundered and probably the best thing that can happen there is to implode it and put something more interesting for the local community there.

Southpark is really a first generation mall design (1960s) and while there has been a lot done to it, it kind of reminds me of putting pig into a prom dress. Maybe that is why I have never really cared that much about it. Also, a lot of the shopping there is located in strip mall type of development surrounding the place.

I think Northlake is a 21st century design on the lines of what has recently been built in Raleigh, and while not clad in marble, diamonds and gold, is a much more inviting place than the other three regional malls in the Charlotte area.

[DigitalSky]

Yeah, i think Northlake's design is similar to Southpoint and Triangle Town Center

[Miesian Corners]

Southpark is really a first generation mall design (1960s) and while there has been a lot done to it, it kind of reminds me of putting pig into a prom dress.  Maybe that is why I have never really cared that much about it.  Also, a lot of the shopping there is located in strip mall type of development surrounding the place. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will the 500,000 square foot Super Target-anchored power center on Northlake Blvd and the 270,000-square foot Lowe's Home Improvement-anchored power center at Harris and Reames count for strip mall type development, metro?

This entire debate has gotten silly.

[monsoon]

This entire debate has gotten silly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think so as those places have not even been built yet. I have been plesantly surprised at what happened to Northlake, and the new Target & Lowes, if built may be just as nice. We will have to wait to see.

And, I am expressing my opinion of what I see. If you think my opinion is silly then fine, but don't waste everyone's time by bashing me for it. No one is forcing you to read what I post and I recommend using our ignore option if you don't like my posts. Or even better, you don't have to log on to UrbanPlanet.

[Miesian Corners]

Nah, I enjoy your posts. Sometimes I even agree with you. And I'd never dream of not logging on...too entertaining.

I do not for the life of me understand your reasoning on this, though. Personally, I hate shopping malls and avoid them if at all possible. I simply don't understand how you can talk about strip shopping center development around SP (there's one that I'm aware of, Sharon Corners), when Northlake will quickly become Pineville. I worked recently on one of the two projects that will be built there. They are both just like any other power center you've ever been to: big box stores with smaller in-line shops. Charlotte has already approved them both...all 800,000 square feet of them. Traffic hell beyond belief. Best Buy, Target, Lowe's Circuit City, TJMaxx, Marshall's, Goody's. Yep, that's Pineville.

So yeah, you're exactly right, Northlake will become a HUGE retail center. But just like Pineville and its retail, I will stay as far away as possible. If I do need to go to a mall, SP is still the easiest to get into and out of.

[StevenRocks]

I hope you put that camera phone to good use

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why, yes. Yes, I did.

Did you travel from Va to see this mall Stevenrocks? 

Anyway, I always thought that Carolina Place just wasn't an interesting place to go to.  It is really a 1970-1980s mall design and one of the last to be built of that type in this part of the state. 

I've never seen a mall of the caliber of Eastland fall so far and so fast.  It was once the premier mall in the Carolinas.    It is sundered and probably the best thing that can happen there is to implode it and put something more interesting for the local community there. 

Southpark is really a first generation mall design (1960s) and while there has been a lot done to it, it kind of reminds me of putting pig into a prom dress.  Maybe that is why I have never really cared that much about it.  Also, a lot of the shopping there is located in strip mall type of development surrounding the place. 

I think Northlake is a 21st century design on the lines of what has recently been built in Raleigh, and while not clad in marble, diamonds and gold, is a much more inviting place than the other three regional malls in the Charlotte area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep. I'm off on Fridays usually so I came down to Charlotte to see Northlake. I would have come Thursday if I could have. I love grand openings.

I got to see these elaborately dressed people on stilts and some little person in an antique car peddling around upstairs, a bunch of musical acts downstairs and even saw someone dressed like Bugs Bunny over near Dick's Sporting Goods. It's the perfect combination of the mundame, the sublime and the surreal.

For what it's worth, Carolina Place to me is a very pretty mall, but not terribly interesting. Once you get past the food processor blade-shaped interior corridor and a couple of nice architectural details, there's not a lot of "there" there. That's always my mall of last resort. It's never my first choice in Charlotte. and it could be because it was pretty much outmoded from day one.

Eastland's prospects seemed less bleak before I went to Northlake, but now I get the feeling it's gonna die very soon. It's still not beyond saving, but it's going to take a lot of work to even maintain what they have, much less make it a viable regional shopping destination again. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that a "white knight" will come and save that "black mall."

SouthPark. I'm terribly biased as you all know so I'll keep it brief and objective. I went there after visiting Nothlake and it did indeed look old and even a little tired. I'm still enthralled by it, but it's a '60s style mall with most of its '80s renovations intact. Unless you started form scratch, that's all you got beyond the stores.

SouthPark will still be the most elegant by far, but Northlake will win the popular vote, if only by a little.

[Skyybutter]

For what its worth I was at Concord Mills today.(I LOVE Blacklion). From what I can see there was virtually no drop in shoppers with NorthLake opening. I talked to a Mall employee and asked some questions. She said Northlake is 13.8 miles from Concord Mills. She said she couldnt tell any difference in how busy her store is. In fact she said the Concord Mills store that she manages actually out-performed the new Northlake mall on thursday and friday.

Im aware that CMills and Nlake are totally different in design and targeted shoppers, but its nice to see that both malls are going to thrive.

In regards to Eastland i SOOO hope it doesnt close. That mall has to have potential in some aspect. I can remember as a child going to Eastland to ice skate. I know the demos have changed in the area as this was 20 years ago, but couldnt Eastland possibly draw from the Plaza-Midwood area and possibly even uptown?

[Lady Celeste]

Can someone please complie a list of the malls in metro Charlotte. From reading the Charlotte thread, I am most familiar with Southpark, Northlake and Eastland Malls. What are the others.....I'm just curious.2

Thanks in advance you guys.

[spectacle21]

Can someone please complie a list of the malls in metro Charlotte. From reading the Charlotte thread, I am most familiar with Southpark, Northlake and Eastland Malls. What are the others.....I'm just curious.2

Thanks in advance you guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Concord Mills (Concord)

SouthPark

Northlake

Eastland

Carolina Place

Birkdale Village

University Place

Eastridge Mall (Gastonia)

The Bridges of Mint Hill (Coming 2007)

Edited September 18, 2005 by spectacle21

[monsoon]

You could add The Overstreet Mall to that list, though it only caters to the downtown worker and is closed when the rest of the lot above does most of their business.

Thats interesting Skybutter about Concord Mills not losing any business but not too surprising I've always felt that it draws a different demographic. My guess is that Northlake is taking away from CP and SP.

Steven, I see that you see the same thing about Southpark also looking a bit tired and dated despite the over the top stores and trappings. It remains to be seen if that is enough to keep people going to that place when the vast majority of Charlotte won't be shopping at Tiffanys. I think a lot of people went to that mall simply because there was no place else to go. Now there is.

Surreal was the word I was looking for to describe the "entertainment". It was a nice mix with the performers on the stage.

[Lady Celeste]

Questions.

Northlake is located near Huntersville correct? Is it in a the city limits of Huntersville? Also, how much land is undeveloped around Northlake? If I understand correctly, it is at the intersection of I-77 and I-485....is this coorect? What municipality has zoning rights over this area? I ask these questions because looking at the location of Northlake and reading the reviews of the mall, it sounds like it is courting a particular crowd. If it is successful in it's mission then it will only be a matter of time before the area around Northlake Mall becomes an edge city. Of course I am not familiar with the Charlotte metros's ability to shut down sprawl or even if the will will be there to do such a thing.

This area could potentially compete with other established parts of the city because companies tend to plant roots where the executives live and looking at many of the houses on Lake Norman there are not only executives there but I would wager that there are some CEOs, COOs, CFOs and Chairman of the Board's there. I'm really curious to see how this area will develop. It reminds me so much of Atlanta metro's NorthPoint Mall. At one time it was said to be "waaaaaaaaaay up in Alpharetta" and the same discussion you guys are having between SouthPark and Northlake could have been the same discussion had in Atlanta between Perimeter Mall and NorthPoint.

While NorthPoint is not quite as posh as Perimeter, it is upscale. The difference was that Perimeter was in an area where land prices were high, traffic was a challenge and rents were astronomical. Well when some of the executives moved to Alpharetta and the NorthPoint Mall opened, business, other retail and restaurants soon followed. There was just so much land readily available........now you have almost the same amount of traffic heading north on GA400 during morning rush hour as you have heading south towards Atlanta.

This will be an interesting story to follow.

Sorry to be so sore and turn this discussion towards development but unfortunately since I don't live in Charlotte (not that I wouldn't want to), I can't talk about how beautiful the grand opening was.......but I'm sure it was great.

[Miesian Corners]

LC, how do Lennox and Phipps fit in overall in metro ATL?

[Lady Celeste]

LC, how do Lennox and Phipps fit in overall in metro ATL?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lenox Square and Phipps Plaza....both owned by Simon Properties.....are the pinnacle of Atlanta's shopping. Although they are seperate shopping centers, their store mixture actually compliment each other. Lenox has Bloomingdale's, Neiman Marcus and Macy's and Phipps has Saks Fifth Avenue, Parisian and Nordstrom. Also even the boutiques compliment each other ie., Lenox has Cartier and Phipps has Tiffany's. They work together to give the area's most posh shopping experience.

Lenox/Phipps closest competitor (in shopping options) in the in the Atlanta market would be Perimeter Mall about 6 miles north of Buckhead.

[monsoon]

Hi Lady Celeste, some answers to your questions.

Northlake is in Charlotte. The Huntersville border is fairly close however. Charlotte controls zoning immediately around the mall, but most of the undeveloped land north and west of the mall is controlled by Huntersville. This is at the 485/77N interesection.

I can't say that I am familiar enough with Atlanta's situation to compare it to the one here. I would say the lake area is kind of the anti-Charlotte and seeks to keep its identitiy separate from that of Charlotte. It does sound like Atlanta in some aspects though I suspect the one in ATL was much more rooted in race relations (so I am told) whereas its more here about The Lake not wanting to live the CLT lifesytle. It is more relaxed and less stuffy at the lake, more like being on vacation. This is the biggest reason that I moved to the area after living for decades all over the city and county.

[Lady Celeste]

Actually both of those malls I used in my analogy aren't in the Atlanta city limits. I guess I will go ahead and say that when I say Atlanta I really mean Atlanta metro and not Atlanta proper.

I asked those questions of the new NorthLake Mall because I am trying to gauge potential development issues that could occur in the area. Again I am not familiar with zoning laws in Charlotte or it's metro. If Charlotte is pro business then I could see Northlake becoming an edge city. While people on Lake Norman may want to keep a simpler life, zoning from down in Charlotte may not see it the same. I guess it comes down to who control the zoming issuances in the area.

When my family first moved to metro Atlanta, I grew up in, what was at the time a northern suburb, of Dunwoody....not Dunwoody of DeKalb but Dunwoody of Fulton. People familiar with metro Atlanta will know what I mean. Anyway, at that time Alpharetta was nothing but horsefarms. People moved to Alpharetta to get away from the big city. People in Alpharetta had to drive down to Perimeter Mall to shop. Perimeter mall is in Dunwoody of DeKalb. Perimeter Mall started going through the metamorphosis from a regional mall to a full fledge edge city. The mall got bigger, more restaurants came, more offices came and buildings got taller. When the 444' Three Ravina was built only to be followed by the 570' Concourse Center towers, it was only a matter of time before traffic became almost unbearable. Marta now serves this market with four stations (Medical Center, Dunwoody, Sandy Springs and North Springs).

At the same time this was happening in the Perimeter Center area, Alpharetta's population was exploded....from people trying to get away from the city and that's not of racial overtones as northern Fulton has always been predominatently white. Pretty much like the lake residents of Lake Norman did. People wanted a simplier life....and even this northern suburb about 17 miles north of downtown was becoming too crowded. To me it's like SouthPark is Perimeter Mall.

Well as more and more of the executives and families began moving to Alpharetta, they began to grow wary fo the commutes down to Perimeter Mall for shopping. Then a cool developer bought thousands of acres of land in horsefarm country. He had the idea for a mall right off of GA 400. Smack dab in the middle of "nowhere" NorthPoint arose. It was an upscale mall geared towards the country club set and horsefarmer owners who fled congestion and high taxes from more southern suburbs (which were still on the northside no less). Sounds like NorthLake Mall doesn't it.

That in itself was a good thing because it offered shopping right where the people lived. It didn't stop there though. As taxes from sales and the mall started rolling into the coffers, Alpharetta began to change it's outlook on development. So did the residents. They wanted more retail and restaurant options. They were obliged. Then some executives begin to shift their jobs to be closer to them. They had the eateries, they had the shopping, no they wanted the commerce. Within five years Alpharetta began to compete with Perimeter Mall for business relocation. Now the same things that people moved away from Perimeter Mall and "southern" north Fulton county to get away from now followed them.

I just wonder will NorthLake will become like NorthPoint in Alpharetta. You basically have the same demographics. Does Charlotte have safety nets in place to keep development from marching away from the city center or SP area to NorthLake? Will money win out over the drive to want a compacted city center. While most forumers on UP or other like sites may crave dense CBD, the executives.....the decision makers....want convenience. How long will it be before midrise office parks start showing up around NorthLake Mall?

Ultimately, what will keep Charlotte from sprawling?

p.s.- I so apologize for going on an on.

[Lady Celeste]

It is more relaxed and less stuffy at the lake, more like being on vacation.  This is the biggest reason that I moved to the area after living for decades all over the city and county.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

p.s.- You don't have to sell lake living to me. If I lived in Charlotte, chances are I would live in the lake area. I like urban living but I'm a water lover so unless a city is on an ocean, river or really big lake then I will seek out water where ever I live.

BTW, I find Lake Norman splendid.

[Skyybutter]

Northlake isnt actually in the middle of posh neighborhoods. Its centrally located between uptown which is growing like mad, Northwest charlotte, which is mostly starter home communities, Lake Norman which as you know is very posh, and University City which is home to UNCC, University Research Park and homes that average say $180,000. Anyway, it will be interesting to see things evolve around Northlake.

More interersting to me is how soon The Bridges at Mint Hill will become reality. Its in a totally different part of Charlotte, but its been 10 years since a traditional mall like Northlake has been built in Charlotte(not including Concord Mills, which is like Discover Mills in Atlanta). Sources are saying 2007 I think for The Bridges. 2 major malls built within 3 or 4 years of one another will be amazing for the Charlotte market. I know thats the norm in Atlanta isnt it?

[monsoon]

Lady Celeste, I think one difference is that everything we have discussed so far is located within one NC County, Mecklenburg. That is mostly due to the fact that NC's counties are much larger than their counterparts in GA. So unlike Atlanta, the City of Charlotte controls the development that affects Northlake, Southpark, Eastland and others. It is only until you cross the line into Huntersville that you see a different zoning authority taking over.

Charlotte has little regard for the municipalities that surround it and hence makes zoning decisions based from a CLT perspective and not a regional one. Northlake was approved because there is not a mall in that part of Charlotte, and it is one of the few areas within the city limits that is mostly undeveloped. (mainly because there is a vast area of poverty between this area and downtown Charlotte). On your earlier answer about sprawl, there is nothing stopping it in Charlotte and outside the CBD, the city suffers from some of the worse kind of automobile inspired sprawl in the state if not the south. This fortunately stops at the city border with Huntersville.

Now as we discussed earlier, Huntersville, Cornelus & Davidson make up the Northern 1/5th of Mecklenburg, are fairly affluent, and there is a great deal of shopping developed there that serve the immediate area. Birkdale Village is an example of this. The area is very restrictive of what can be built however so there are no super Walmarts, or other big box stores and the city was opposed to the zoning that allowed the Northlake mall to be built. Of course CLT completely ignored Huntersville's concerns over Northlake. There is one super center with a Lowes, Home Depot and Target, but that was approved by Mecklenburg Cnty, before Huntersville took it over. The law has been changed to give the towns control over un-annexed areas so this kind of thing can't happen again.

So to sum this up what you really have here is the CBD, and north of that a large area of poverty, some undeveloped land as you head further north, then finally the border with Huntersville and the towns and two lakes to the North. Since Huntersville will not allow sprawling development then what is a developer to do who wants to tap into the affluence found at the lake but doesn't want to comply with restrictive Lake zoning? Well then you go to Charlotte and ask for zoning that will allow it.

The end result to answer your question, is that I think you will see some nasty development appear on the line between Charlotte and Huntersville but once you cross into Huntersville and enter into the Lake area, you will see little change from where the area has been headed. Another example of this is a terrible automall with 5 dealerships that CLT approved right on the Huntersville line. Its interesting to note that many people that I know who live here don't go into CLT to work and have little interest in what goes on there. I am not sure if it is like that in ATL, but I don't think the lake considers itself a bedroom community for CLT, though a lot of people do commute there. (A lot of people commute to Huntersville from CLT too for jobs)

[Lady Celeste]

Mr monsoon thank you kindly for your thoughtful response.

I am learning so much about Charlotte from talking to you all. I will keep my eye out on the synergies between NorthLake and SouthPark. It would be interesting to see Company A (a F500) decide to move to Charlotte and most of the executives scouting for a spot fall in love with Lake Norman and thereby decide to build a coporate campus just outside of Huntersville. Once one starts, the flood gates would flow open. Since you say that Charlotte controls alot of the zoning around NorthLake I'm curious to see what type of development will take place.

Skyybutter asked:

2 major malls built within 3 or 4 years of one another will be amazing for the Charlotte market. I know thats the norm in Atlanta isnt it?

Well new malls come in spurts but you are correct they are usually built within months (24-36) of each other. Unfortunately however this inadvertedly cause sprawl. Right now I think that the Atlanta market is saturated (I think last I counted for moonshield, the total was 19)....however there are two additional malls proposed.

[StevenRocks]

Steven, I see that you see the same thing about Southpark also looking a bit tired and dated despite the over the top stores and trappings.  It remains to be seen if that is enough to keep people going to that place when the vast majority of Charlotte won't be shopping at Tiffanys.    I think a lot of people went to that mall simply because there was no place else to go.  Now there is. 

Surreal was the word I was looking for to describe the "entertainment".  It was a nice mix with the performers on the stage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The people in the funky costumes on stilts were awesome

I think SouthPark will be fine for a while. Admittedly, there's only a small number of people who shop at the highest of the high-end stores, but Simon's done its homework and has picked stores that work well together and that embrace a wider income and taste level than the SouthPark of the '90s. I don't think they'd have any reservations about another full-scale renovation in the future if they feel like they need one to be competitive either.

Another thing that's going to help is that the neighborhoods around SouthPark are mostly affluent and show few, if any, signs of demographic change in the future. That's just as important as the regional draw, in some ways it's more important, as we've seen at Eastland. If the neighborhood seems ghetto (combined with bad press) and the sales drop any, the local appeal wanes, followed by the regional appeal.

Here is something to think about as well, since the pocket of poverty north of Uptown was mentioned. It would be in the city's best interest to keep its hands in any redevelopment of Eastland, if for only the fact that if Eastland fails, most of the poorer patrons of that mall will take the bus to Northlake, Mint Hill, and SouthPark, thereby trasfering that "element" to another place. Northlake, by being closer to Uptown, could potentially recieve the lion's share of these patrons, which could have a bad ripple effect on what's starting out as a very good mall.

[Lady Celeste]

I now I'm demanding but could one of you techno savvy men put a dot on a map of greater Charlotte respresenting the location of the malls.

Thanks.

[DigitalSky]

I now I'm demanding but could one of you techno savvy men put a dot on a map of greater Charlotte respresenting the location of the malls.

Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>