Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[monsoon]

Could you enlighten us and list the other "handouts" are. I'm just curious to know. As of now this is a privately funded venue.

I recommend that you read above if there is still confusion.

[UrbanFuture]

I'm sure Reese is saying "why try to bring 10,000 people for a minor league game, when we could shoot for 30,000?" And it's a lofty and bold question - I will certainly admit that we would be lucky to get 15,000 or 20,000 - the lower attendance rate for a second tier city.

Well I can see it from that perspective as well. And it certainly fits with Charlotte's identity, being "the little city that could". I don't mean that in a bad way either, I absolutely love Charlotte. We have a robust history of going after big ideas and making them a reality. If he's following that line of thought then his heart is certainly in the right place, I'm just not convinced that it is his line of thought.

So, does the park get redrawn to be bigger?

[Mobuchu]

So, does the park get redrawn to be bigger?

I certainly hope not. The difference between the two when it comes to size is not going to matter, what does is the location. I could seriously care less about minor leauge baseball coming uptown, I just want that urban park to happen and I want it to happen on the 6acre site. Having the office buildings and residential buildings right on top of it will do wonders to make this a successful park. The 8acre site will be stuck with the Duke parking deck, and the backside of Graham which is not prime real estate.

Baseball on the 8 acres? The only reason I support it was because that moved the park to the better location. If the Knights fall through, fine by me, sell the land to developers or put a new use in its spot to further support the park and fill in the current wasteland that is 3rd ward. My .02

[New Name]

Just a little offshoot here...if I'm not mistaken, there is a basketball arena in Indianapolis that spans two or more city blocks without interrupting traffic flow (the arena is over the roadway). So if the will was strong enough, there are ways to build a large structure and NOT ruin the grid or streetscape.

[dubone]

Financing is very hard to come by, and that is why the nation is in crisis, as even worthy projects can't get it and even worthy home buyers can't get it. Then, tally in the increase in costs due to the delays, and the numbers start to break down. Obviously, though, there was some level of subsidy for this, in the form of land, because it provided a recreation opportunity for citizens of the county as well as being a draw for 'tourists' which would be a marginal boost to tax proceeds.

My feelings, though, are that I am more than happy to forego baseball in uptown. I have long been of the mind (like Mobuchu, atlrvr and others) that moving the park and building the 2nd Ward Plan was FAR more important than having the ballpark. I would love to see private development on that land between Mint and Graham, but it seems like the economic and credit conditions will not make that happen this cycle.

I'll be happy if the ballpark gets built, but I won't be unhappy if it doesn't but the Park and 2nd Ward Plan DO get built. If it all fails, then I'll be really frustrated. I'm glad the county is mitigating it all by making the park independant.

[atlrvr]

Worthy is a relative term.....worthy borrowers for residential and commerical projects can still get financing, just the bar for how worthy is defined has been raised from the last several years.

Worthiness to a bank is now nearly a direct inverse relationship to risk at this point, with bank profit potential now a much smaller part of the equation.

*taking of my banker's hat*

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The biggest shame to me if this falls through is that it would stall plans for 2nd Ward. Not that I was wild and crazy about the large footprints buildings proposed by Spectrum, but I did like how this was one of the few ways that a large chunk of Uptown and could be pried from the various government bodies.

[monsoon]

^It's a comment for a different discussion but if you ever look at the meeting minutes for the county government I am struck at how often they go behind closed doors to discuss property acquisitions.

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I might be wrong but I think that the time is quickly coming where major redevelopment plans for the city are going to have to stop simply because nobody can afford it now. The county has already taken on unimaginable amounts of debt and there is yet another $250M bond package on the ballot this November. This is also the year that property tax re-evaluations happen and that, I predict is going to introduce another level of pain in this city that is going to make it politically very difficult to pull off these kind of projects. Eventually these things do have to be repaid.

[dubone]

I think if the Knights determine they can no longer afford to fund all of the stadium, that they will seek to fill the gap from the county. My thesis is that the county will discuss it and ultimately opt NOT to subsidize the stadium any more than they previously offered (which pretty much was just the land rent and some minor street changes).

It appears that the county has already planned for that contingency. If they already have plans in place to purchase the Church Street park land, then the hard part of the landswap is already done. All they then need to do is combine with CMS to sell the 2nd Ward land either to Spectrum to build as planned, or someone else. Baseball doesn't have to be the key element to the land swap if the county doesn't want to make it so. They've just kept them all together because of the history of how we got to this point, and because so far, there hasn't seemed to be need to break ranks and separate the initiatives.

It seems that they could simply do all the land swaps, but then just sit on the baseball land until after the economic downturn. That would offer the chance to give baseball some time, and if it doesn't pan out, then the county will be positioned well to sell that land during the next business cycle to develop.

[atlrvr]

On the revaluation note....the finance departments job is to set taxes at a level equal to expenses.

Therefore if everyone's property value doubles, and city/county expenses don't increase, then tax rates will be cut in half to keep the budget income neutral.

So, even if value go up, people's actual taxes they owe will only increase at the same percent as the government's expenses.

[monsoon]

^Theoretically. It's the councils that set and vote on the new tax rates. The best they can do is adjust them based on an average increase. Many neighborhoods are going to see a lot higher appreciation and hence will see their taxes go up substantially. It's often called the hidden tax increase and has happened here before.

[atlrvr]

^ That is true.....if you live in a home that has had above the county average appreciation, you're taxes will go up greater than average, but if you have had below average appreciation, your tax bill could actually go down, even though your home is appraised higher.

[jfuptown]

Don

[eastsider]

Well it looks like the stadium might not happen and now we might lose the team altogether. Ballpark Digest is reporting that the Knights owner is considering a potential move to Richmond and they would be the first in line for the market if they wanted it. Richmond lost their AAA team at the end of this season as the Braves are moving to a new stadium in Gwinnett, Ga to be closer to their parent club in Atlanta. If the Knights move, it could not happen until 2010.

[New Name]

Well it looks like the stadium might not happen and now we might lose the team altogether. Ballpark Digest is reporting that the Knights owner is considering a potential move to Richmond and they would be the first in line for the market if they wanted it. Richmond lost their AAA team at the end of this season as the Braves are moving to a new stadium in Gwinnett, Ga to be closer to their parent club in Atlanta. If the Knights move, it could not happen until 2010.

The reason why Richmond lost the Braves was because they were unable to get a plan together for a center city ballpark. I hate to say it, but they will ALWAYS be unable to build a suitable facility. Even if Charlotte is mired with lawsuits, we're still more capable than Richmond of building a suitable facility.

[monsoon]

^Or maybe Richmond had good sense not to waste public money on professional sports.

[New Name]

^Maybe. Probably not though. A diversified city should have a little for everyone - including sports. Even if you don't like them. I don't like paying taxes that help school kids. I don't have any kids, so what do I care, but it's my duty as a resident of a diverse city.

[schmopperX]

^Maybe. Probably not though. A diversified city should have a little for everyone - including sports. Even if you don't like them. I don't like paying taxes that help school kids. I don't have any kids, so what do I care, but it's my duty as a resident of a diverse city.

I agree with you 100%. I think it would be tragic for the Knights to leave Charlotte. Okay maybe tragic is an exaggeration, but it would definitely take away from the city.

I happen to believe an uptown stadium would be GREAT for downtown, I would take my family to at least 10 games a season, where now we only attend one or two. I think it would be awesome to take my kids to some games downtown in the city I love. Sitting in front of the skyline, having paid $10 or $12 for a ticket and eating hot dogs, now that's just a great scene.

This will be sad if they move to Richmond.

[HopHead]

This is probably the one scenario that Reese would love. AAA team leaves town b/c they are fed up with his lawsuits. Makes perfect sense for him. Though, as someone who spent many years living in Richmond, this is pretty far fetched. I would be shocked if they could lure a AAA team given the current stadium situation there. The surrounding areas there are one thing, but the people that run the actual city are idiotic. They've let one plan after another fall through there... If anything, this could be a political ploy by the Knights to get Charlotte and Mecklenburg leaders more involved.

[monsoon]

^Maybe. Probably not though. A diversified city should have a little for everyone - including sports. Even if you don't like them. I don't like paying taxes that help school kids. I don't have any kids, so what do I care, but it's my duty as a resident of a diverse city.

But didn't you get to where you are today because you went to public school? Take away education and you hurt society, that is the residents as you put it. Take away professional baseball, I am not sure what the down side might be except for possibly less money going into the owner and player's bank account. I've got nothing against sports but if people are looking to make profits off of it, then they should have a business plan that doesn't require public funding.

[Eastman]

But didn't you get to where you are today because you went to public school? Take away education and you hurt society, that is the residents as you put it. Take away professional baseball, I am not sure what the down side might be except for possibly less money going into the owner and player's bank account. I've got nothing against sports but if people are looking to make profits off of it, then they should have a business plan that doesn't require public funding.

What are some recent examples that didn't require some public funding of some sort?

[monsoon]

What are some recent examples that didn't require some public funding of some sort?

"Some sort" of public funding could be 1 cent. How about significant public funding such as what the Knights were asking for? There is a very easy answer to that. The Charlotte Hornets in 1988. George Shinn managed to bring an expansion team to Charlotte by raising his own funding and getting commitments for thousands of season tickets. He required very little public assistance to do this. He placed his team in an already existing Charlotte Coliseum that was built for public purposes, not specifically for him.

Furthermore when the people are given a chance to vote on these things, they often turn them down. This happened when Shinn demanded the city build him a new NBA only arena, this happened with the language used for the park bonds, this happened when Greensboro was asked to vote on funding major league baseball. It's when we get these complicated swap/tax deals when the public should be alarmed that something underhanded is going on. If baseball is such a priority in this city, then let the people vote on it. I would support whatever that decision happened to be. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.

[Eastman]

"Some sort" of public funding could be 1 cent. How about significant public funding such as what the Knights were asking for? There is a very easy answer to that. The Charlotte Hornets in 1988. George Shinn managed to bring an expansion team to Charlotte by raising his own funding and getting commitments for thousands of season tickets. He required very little public assistance to do this. He placed his team in an already existing Charlotte Coliseum that was built for public purposes, not specifically for him.

Furthermore when the people are given a chance to vote on these things, they often turn them down. This happened when Shinn demanded the city build him a new NBA only arena, this happened when the county voted on these park bonds, this happened when Greensboro was asked to vote on funding major league baseball. It's when we get these complicated swap/tax deals when the public should be alarmed that something underhanded is going on. If baseball is such a priority in this city, then let the people vote on it. I would support whatever that decision happened to be. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.

I agree with you I just haven't studied other cities most recent sports agreements to know how this one rates. Much like the light rail I have no problem with this being spelled out clearly for the people to read, showing the land deal, financial projections for the team, possible losses or gains for the city, etc. and having the people vote on it. If I had to bet on it with what I've heard thus far I think it would pass, and at least it would clear up some of the questions people have. Well, at least it may have passed last week.

[Charlotte_native]

Aren't the Knights funding the construction of their own stadium? That is what one of the issues is now, Dear Mr. Reece has pushed the project off a couple years and now the Knights are having a harder time finding the additional funding because of rising costs. The public was chipping in very little to this and would recover the funds through the increased tax revenue. This is common for all types of businesses. Of all the public dole projects potentially out there, this one called for far smaller amounts than most -- and again, the construction of the facility was being paid for by the Knights.

The message this sends, to me, is that if I personally don't like something the city is doing and have enough money to block it I can selfishly go alone and take whatever it is away from the many others that want it. I guess we should all be happy that we have this one individual usurping the public ability to move forward.

[maratletter]

I don't like paying taxes that help school kids. I don't have any kids, so what do I care, but it's my duty as a resident of a diverse city.

You had me right up to before that bit about "it's my duty as a resident of a diverse city."

Ayn Rand

Edited October 2, 2008 by maratletter

[New Name]

^Ha! I actually was thinking "Ayn Rand" when I was writing that, and I reconsidered and thought about deleting it. What I wanted to say way "civic obligation." That's a more suitable phrase - as socialist as it may sound. I think it sounds harsh. It wasn't meant like that. It was meant to be a rebuttal to the question: "why should I pay for YOUR baseball?" answer: "why should I pay for YOUR kids if I don't own any?" or "why should I pay for YOUR highways when I don't even own a car?" Because you are part of something that is bigger than yourself.