Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[Mobuchu]

It's not irrelevant. The taxpayers paid for that land, and they will pay for the requested infrastructure upgrades. Furthermore it has also cost the taxpayers the intrinsic value of a large urban park at this location which all of you were praising before this deal came to light. All of you, without exception, said this large park would be invaluable to downtown Charlotte. So either you were completely wrong then, or you are being disingenuous now with these kinds of arguments.

Its been discussed in depth how the new location of the park is a better location. The new location was not available when the 8 acre site was proposed, so yes, everyone loved the idea. Now that the land swap has gone through to get the better spot, there's no reason to move it back to the 8 acre site whether the baseball stadium happens or not.

If the Knights cant build the stadium then fine, sell it to developers, I dont care, but the park stays in its current location.

[rockhilljames]

I've always advocated a South End location for the Knights. There are plenty of spots that a stadium could be located within walking distance of the light rail line. It would enable the park to be bigger (yay!) and the South End location would provide a more intimate setting and a warehouse styled park would fit in perfectly with the neighborhood. It would also allow you to avoid the downside of the downtown location which wouldn't allow for expanding the stadium for major league ball if the market matures in the next 20 years or so.

[Andyc545]

I can't help but think how much worse things could have been if Reese got his way and we had a major league team here, coming when we're in recession, when we're seeing high paying job losses and people not able to afford higher priced ticket. I watched an interesting special on the recession and its effects in cities a few days ago (don't remember where), and they reviewed the Florida Marlins and their new stadium and how it was being paid by tax payer money (sort of sounded similar to Bobcats Arena... ugh TWC). Many taxpayers were angry and there was a loss of tax revenue to fund the stadium due to the recession. Remember, it was the Florida Marlins that Reese was hoping to get his hands on for a tenant here in Charlotte. The Marlins were interested in moving if they couldn't get a stadium there in Miami. Sort of interesting scenarios going on here all due to the economic state, so just making a general observation. Hopefully this thing gets built soon, I'm sick of seeing so many surface lots that have ONLY plans and no umph to push them forward.

^ I totally agree on the South End site. I'd like to look at Coors Field (although Major League) in Denver as a good way to implement a stadium in an urban environment that isn't necessarily in the city's core of big buildings. Although it's close and has great views, Coors field is in a very hip old section called LoDo (yup NoDa isn't alone with cheesy names) that has a very similar theme and vibe as South End. It's all built in brick and blends in brilliantly with the environment. I'd love to see something similar for the Knights and with South End. Another good example is Camden Yards.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Andyc545

[New Name]

Anyone ever suggested putting a stadium in where the intermodal yards are? Kind of like Seattle's Safeco field - you can hear the sound of trains blowing their whistles during the game. Kind of cool. Since the argument exists that the outside of a stadium doesn't fit into a coherent urban walkable grid - seems why fight it?

[monsoon]

Why not tear down Eastland Mall and put it there? If they are going to build a street car to that place, then this would solve a number of issues related to that as well. The city could then bill this as an urban renewal project, build a decent transit center to accommodate the new rail line, possibly leech some funding for both. They could also take the opportunity to do some complementary development with private investors which would immediately get the entire East side behind the project. Maybe they could get the Belk family and others to donate the land. It also solves the current problem with Eastland Mall and what to do with a 1970s era empty regional mall. Of course the baseball parking could double as park and ride parking during commuting hours. Lot's of synergy with this plan.

It would seem like a no brainier to me and one that might get both projects built a lot sooner. Since there is plenty of room there then bring Reese in too so that the plan includes provisions to a later conversion to a major league stadium. His court cases go away and now you have his money available too. I think this plan would also have a lot more popular support than the one they have now where they find it necessary to hide it in complicated deals.

[rockhilljames]

It would certainly fit, especially if the streetcar line is going to be built (does the streetcar line have enough capacity for this?)

The merchandise mart location would be another one on that side of town that might work.

[Andyc545]

I like the idea, Monsoon. Seems to be adequate space for a stadium, possibly even enough to expand it. Also it could still become that necessary catalyst for change in the area... much needed change. Streetcar gives alternative transit. Should be space for parking, too, and I like the idea of there being potential to remodel neighboring sites to help interact and make the area more ped friendly and cohesive.

[New Name]

I agree also. I've been pretty outspoken about what is good for baseball - I think this idea is a good one.

[JayGee]

I always felt that uptown is where the stadium should be, but I have to say, the Eastland proposal has a lot of merit. You're using land that absolutely no one knows what to do with, is expandable, and has the potential to transform the area.

Very interesting.

[DMann]

Let's see, which restaurants would you go to near Eastland Mall, or would you do a reallocation of all restaurants and retail in the area to acccomodate the baseball stadium. Would you walk there, or park 3 block away and walk there? Would you build a parking garage to accomodate the influx of cars for 70 some events? What is the cost of demolition of that site, could it be more than the $8 million in infrastructure improvements needed in the Third Ward?

How would the neighborhoods appreciate the influx of traffic for those 70 some events, or do we care what they would think?

Could the Knights merchandise this field as they would an urban field?

Minor league baseball is about training and entertainment, not sports. The Knights do not pay their salaries, just facilities, the operation is supported by the parent team. Where would the parent team want to play?

The Eastland Mall site makes as much sense as Fort Mill did, or Tyvola for an arena did some 15 years ago. It is a destination only site, not one with commercial infrastructure to support it.

This land swap has been approved by our elected officials, by the business community who will profit / invest to support it, by the major tenant, the Knights who will make a significant investment in a facility, and will take responsibility for the $8 million in infrastructure and be paid back with tax credits over some 10 year period. Furthermore, it kick starts the ability to redevelop the Second Ward into a residential and commerical section of the city.

[CltFlyer]

They should leave room to expand and to maybe put a roof on it so we can use it as a major league ball park if we ever get a team and be final four in ncaa basketball eligble.

[queensguy06]

Minor league baseball is about training and entertainment, not sports. The Knights do not pay their salaries, just facilities, the operation is supported by the parent team. Where would the parent team want to play?

The Eastland Mall site makes as much sense as Fort Mill did, or Tyvola for an arena did some 15 years ago. It is a destination only site, not one with commercial infrastructure to support it.

I can agree with some of what you posted, but not these two points. First, the Knights affiliate is the White Sox. Anyone familiar with baseball knows their ties to the South side of Chicago - a notoriously rough part of the city. When they built the new Comiskey Park in 1991, they built it right next to the old Comiskey Park because of those ties with being the 'south side team' despite the crime-ridden neighborhood. I remember the big jokes at the time were the fact that while you were in the ballpark watching a game your car was being broken into in the parking lot. So while I am sure that any team would prefer to be in an Uptown setting, I don't necessarily think that this team (in particular) would be against the Eastland Mall site.

And to your second point, I used to live over by Eastland Mall and I now live in Tega Cay (Fort Mill), and comparing these two sites as identical 'destination only' sites is poppycock. Knight's stadium is destination only, while that is changing a bit, as there has not been another standing structure within a mile of it, with the exception of a few car dealerships, a gas station, and the old Hornets training center. Not one restaurant, not a single motel/hotel, only one way to get there by taking exit 88, etc. I will say there are a few more stores that have been built in the past 3 or so years, but still, the stadium for all purposes is in the forest.

If it were built at the Eastland mall site, there would be mass transit that includes buses currently and streetcar for the longer term. You have a road grid that would be very conducive to a large traffic volume with Central bordering one side and two other streets that run into Harris Blvd. in one direction, and Independence going the other. There are plenty of restaurants within driving distance of the site, and I am sure there would be a few more if the stadium was built there. I personally cannot see one similarity between the property that the current baseball stadium sits on and the Eastland mall site - not one.

Edited March 22, 2009 by queensguy06

[queensguy06]

They should leave room to expand and to maybe put a roof on it so we can use it as a major league ball park if we ever get a team and be final four in ncaa basketball eligble.

I am not sure what you mean about the Final Four, but Charlotte hosted the Final Four back in 1994. I am sure that the current TWC Arena would be suitable for the Final Four currently, as it also hosts the CIAA tourney.

[JayGee]

For college basketball, TWC Arena sits a little over 20,000. That's actually too small for the Final Four today. Hence, football stadiums hosting the Final Four. I forget the exact requirement in terms of capacity, but I know it's north of 35,000. The only way Charlotte could host another Final Four is for the city to get some retractable roof facility. As much as I'd love to see one hosted here again, it won't happen anytime soon... Unless Jerry Reese's pipedream comes true

If I'm not mistaken, the city knew when they built TWC Arena the capacity was not adequate for a Final Four. It was downsized to save money. I believe the original was over 20k, but present capacity is app. 17k. Anyone can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited March 22, 2009 by JayGee

[DMann]

Please ask anyone in Chicago where they would rather see a game, Comisky or Wrigley. Had any land been available at that time at anywhere near a competitive price, the Sox would not be there now. You may recall there was a serious threat of taking the team to St. Petersburg, and it was only after the Illinois Senate got involved that a deal was struck. Any and all stadiums since then, Cleveland, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St. Louis etc have taken an urban setting, preferrably with a city view.

Furthermore, Wrigley attendance was 3.3 Million vs 2.5 Million for the Sox, both first place teams, that is about a 25% difference.

There are plenty of restaurants within driving distance of the site, and I am sure there would be a few more if the stadium was built there. I personally cannot see one similarity between the property that the current baseball stadium sits on and the Eastland mall site - not one.

Part of my point exactly! Driving Distance! Balantyne or Lake Norman are in driving distance, and once someone gets into their car, and they are not likely find parking at a restaurant within driving distance, they will move on. That means the Eastland Mall site is a destination, just like Fort Mill.

If you come to a Bobcats, or Checkers, or Panthers game, and don't want to immediatetly get into traffic, you can stop at any number of places for a drink or food while you wait for the traffic to abate. Eastland Mall has heavily traveled streets bounding it, not exactly inviting to cross.

[Guest]

If I'm not mistaken, the city knew when they built TWC Arena the capacity was not adequate for a Final Four. It was downsized to save money. I believe the original was over 20k, but present capacity is app. 17k. Anyone can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Official is 19,026 for basketball. But its expandable to 20,020.

[JayGee]

Official is 19,026 for basketball. But its expandable to 20,020.

But I think they did acknowledge at the time, it was not big enough for a Final Four, didn't they?

[Guest]

They did not acknowledge it, I think they felt it was not worth addressing. If you don't mention it, perhaps people won't complain about it. It was built for concerts, regional tournaments, and NBA basketball, that much they did say. Usually people do not tend to advertise their shortcomings. I do think that they knew it was not large enough to host such an event, then again building 35k+ for the purpose of a couple day a year tournament is not feasible.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Guest

[InitialD]

They did not acknowledge it, I think they felt it was not worth addressing. If you don't mention it, perhaps people won't complain about it. It was built for concerts, regional tournaments, and NBA basketball, that much they did say. Usually people do not tend to advertise their shortcomings. I do think that they knew it was not large enough to host such an event, then again building 35k+ for the purpose of a couple day a year tournament is not feasible.

Yes, it would be quite silly to design a building with the hopes of hosting a yearly event once or twice ever. The final fours are now held only at domed stadiums designed to hold 35k or more. That means only football stadiums and perhaps one or two baseball stadiums. The arena does well frequently hosting tournaments like the ACC and CIAA, and also the regional NCAA tournament games, in addition to being the home of two sports franchises.

Edited March 23, 2009 by InitialD

[monsoon]

If I'm not mistaken, the city knew when they built TWC Arena the capacity was not adequate for a Final Four. It was downsized to save money. I believe the original was over 20k, but present capacity is app. 17k. Anyone can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct the TWC Arena is substantially smaller capacity wise than the Charlotte Coliseum but that was because the TWC Arena was built to maximize profits for the NBA. i.e. they sacrificed several thousand seats to build those sky boxes. The Coliseum was built as a general purpose facility and wasn't loaded down with those things and could hold a lot more people. It was the largest indoor arena in NC. That distinction reverted back to the Greensboro Coliseum when they tore it down. This is why there are concerts bypassing Charlotte for Greensboro as they did before the Coliseum was built.

[Eastman]

You are correct the TWC Arena is substantially smaller capacity wise than the Charlotte Coliseum but that was because the TWC Arena was built to maximize profits for the NBA. i.e. they sacrificed several thousand seats to build those sky boxes. The Coliseum was built as a general purpose facility and wasn't loaded down with those things and could hold a lot more people. It was the largest indoor arena in NC. That distinction reverted back to the Greensboro Coliseum when they tore it down. This is why there are concerts bypassing Charlotte for Greensboro as they did before the Coliseum was built.

The shame to is I swear nosebleed seats in the Charlotte coliseum where better than the one's in TWC. To get back to the baseball stadium I like your idea Monsoon, I'm on the eastside and I think that idea of the Eastland Mall site would be well recieved. I would love to grab the trolly, go to the game, and it would give that area a much needed lift. Major roads are all around it, makes sense. Now I love it being downtown, but if this gets the ball rolling I'm for it.

[Charlotte_native]

The Eastland plan comes with both pros and cons, just like all other plans and sites. I don't think the plan is extremely worthwhile without better mass transit to the area (trolly or some type of non-bus service) but with that might be a great amenty for a part of town that hasn't had much tossed its way in a long time. As for inadequate nearby restaurants, etc, this might be what spurs more to open and succeed.

I personally prefer central sites for stuff like this, but a good reuse of a tarnished site could be a win-win for me. For folks like me, though, the only reason I'd go to a baseball game would be convenience, cheap tickets, and a a beautiful day to be outside -- i wouldn't go out that far, but I'm sure plenty of others would.

[uptownliving]

I think putting the Knights Baseball Stadium at the Eastland Mall site would be an urban policy failure for Charlotte.

Here is why:

- The Baseball Stadium would have less jobs than Eastland Mall currently has.

- The Baseball Stadium would generate less local and state taxes than Eastland Mall currently does.

- Not a central location for something that is going to draw in people from all parts of the region.

The people on the Eastside don't need a political handout that isn't going to sustain the area long term.

[HopHead]

1 down 1 more to go... The Florida Marlins just got the final approval to begin building their new retractable roof stadium in Little Havana: Marlins get approval. So, it would appear the only franchise that Reese would be able to argue relocating to Charlotte at this point would be the Tampa Bay Rays. Not sure where this battle is now in the area of Tampa politics, but hopefully if they get a new deal with the city of Tampa, we can move forward with getting our uptown (or near uptown) Knights stadium...

[CltFlyer]

If we get a mlb team honestly is charlotte big enough to support it.