Perception of Charlotte Nationwide

[Nick2]

Charlotte making the rounds on Reddit for the least gridlike city out of 100 in the world.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/ntfe0a/polar_histograms_of_street_networks_in_100_major/

[videtur quam contuor]

On 9/10/2019 at 9:37 PM, t_money said:

I doubt this is the right topic but saw this article and thought it would be appreciated here.  Feel free to move it if needed.

https://geoffboeing.com/2019/09/urban-street-network-orientation/

Polar graphs of street network orietations.  Guess which city was 'least ordered/gridded'? 

Pretty interesting stuff with a link to the journal article that the data came from as well in the post.

 

Edit for typos

Most disordered. It is a tribute to the human brain that we can navigate using our memory and brain in this highly disordered city. Most newcomers mention this challenge and I recall it myself, lo those many years ago. I may not be able to say which Queens I am on but I know how to use it to arrive at my destination. If one can navigate effectively using brainpower alone in this city one can navigate most  (western) cities. Asian cities may have ordered streets but the navigation therein and the names/numbers and lack of same make it more of a challenge.

[turbocraig]

6 hours ago, Nick2 said:

Charlotte making the rounds on Reddit for the least gridlike city out of 100 in the world.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/ntfe0a/polar_histograms_of_street_networks_in_100_major/

At least we’re in some pretty good company.  I like our meandering roads; it’s a much more satisfying drive, albeit less efficient.  I don’t love driving in perfectly gridded places.  Feels like Tron.  

[KJHburg]

I mean where is Atlanta on that graphic?  I could not care less if we are gridded or not at this point.  We did not have a flat landscape with few creeks like a Phoenix or Vegas or even Los Angeles.  We have ridges with creeks running between them.   South Florida all gridded out but it was flat drained swamp land.  Orlando tried a grid but too many lakes makes it impossible there too. 

 

[ruraljuror]

52 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I mean where is Atlanta on that graphic?  I could not care less if we are gridded or not at this point.  We did not have a flat landscape with few creeks like a Phoenix or Vegas or even Los Angeles.  We have ridges with creeks running between them.   South Florida all gridded out but it was flat drained swamp land.  Orlando tried a grid but too many lakes makes it impossible there too. 

 

Atlanta is third row down, third from the left.

When I lived in Charlotte, I was told that the city layout was designed by a German immigrant who brought with him some kind of niche German urban planning philosophy of that era that intentionally made the street layout confusing for newcomers but intuitive for locals (with a little practice) as a means of proactively prioritizing longer-term residents over short-term residents and tourists. Do y'all know if there's any truth to that or was it just some urban planning urban legend? 

[kermit]

9 minutes ago, ruraljuror said:

Atlanta is third row down, third from the left.

When I lived in Charlotte, I was told that the city layout was designed by a German immigrant who brought with him some kind of niche German urban planning philosophy of that era that intentionally made the street layout confusing for newcomers but intuitive for locals (with a little practice) as a means of proactively prioritizing longer-term residents over short-term residents and tourists. Do y'all know if there's any truth to that or was it just some urban planning urban legend? 

I have read a good bit about Charlotte history and am heavily involved in planning. That is the first time I have heard this story. 

It also does not track with Charlotte’s evolution. It was a tiny place for a long while, I don’t think anyone was thinking much about urban design when we were a town of 2,000 people. Finally, I am pretty sure no one in Charlotte imagined tourism or rapid population growth would ever be a thing in the days before WWII.

Edited June 7, 2021 by kermit

[ruraljuror]

3 minutes ago, kermit said:

I have read a good bit about Charlotte history and am heavily involved in planning. That is the first time I have heard this story. 

It also does not track with Charlotte’s evolution. It was a tiny place for a long while, I don’t think anyone was thinking much about urban design when we were a town of 2,000 people. Finally, I am pretty sure no one in Charlotte was thinking about tourism or rapid population growth in the days before WWII.

Yeah, it sounds more like an old wives tale than a historical account to me now, but it seemed plausible to me at the time so I didn't question it. I think we were in the university area but were discussing the various Queens roads when the topic came up. The family of the person who told me this story had been in Charlotte for generations, but I'm confident they had no particular historical or urban planning experience or expertise. 

[KJHburg]

Much of our original roads outside the small grid of uptown Charlotte were roads connecting various churches.  Like Sharon Amity connecting both of those churches.  Providence Road headed south to Providence Presby and is on a ridge.  Many any US cities had the benefit or luck being laid out way after Charlotte they chose grid patterns.  Look at the location of ridges between our creeks that primarily flow NE to SW and you will see roads.  

I never heard of that story about an immigrant suggesting roads. I think our roads connected small rural communities and this was the case when my mom was a little girl.  Southpark was a cow pasture, there was nothing but farms between the hamlets of Pineville and Matthews.  All what we call south Charlotte was farms and mainly cotton fields.  This was less than 90 years ago. Derita and Newell were small rural communities.  Steele Creek was farmland too.   Think of how roads connect in Union County especially northern county today and that was what Mecklenburg county was like 90 years ago.  

You have to realize how small Charlotte was up until WW2 

[turbocraig]

The meandering road network combined with our lush tree canopy is one is the things I love about this city.   It’s a rare trait for a city of this size to be able to offer that kind of charm nearly everywhere and it’s 100% authentic.  You’d never get that kind of feel in a gridded city.  I’ll keep it, thanks. 

[videtur quam contuor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Ordinance_of_1785

The Northwest Ordinance, from the fertile mind of Thomas Jefferson is why the Northwest Territory and all the sub units within it from Minnesota to Ohio, are gridded and divided strictly as seen in the wiki article. I am a child of the Northwest territory and assumed, as a child, that all places had straight roads, followed meridians, 90º corners, city blocks of 1/10 of a mile and all the rest. Townships, squares, sections, all part of my personal space. Those who went to school in NC studied NC history in grade 5 and 8, as I recall. In Indiana it is Northwest Territory, Indiana history , Wisconsin Glaciation learned in those grades. (I hope they still are)

[videtur quam contuor]

For those who had not the pleasure, nay, the joy of studying Northwest history, the Wisconsin Glaciation was the most recent advance of the ice front until about 12,000 years ago. It had a range as far as the southern part of Indiana.  My eighth grade Social Studies teacher Mr. (name unremembered), though now dead, would be happy to know I recall at least some of his knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_glaciation

Edit: Wisconsin Glaciation is relevant to the orderedness of streets as the advance and retreat of glaciers scrubbed the earth flat. Little to no elevation change and slow shallow rivers drain sandy soil. This makes Mr. Jefferson's plan easy for the surveyors; flat land, few rivers of any real size, minor elevation changes, perfect for squares, range lines and all the rest.

Edited June 7, 2021 by tarhoosier

[QCxpat]

8 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Much of our original roads outside the small grid of uptown Charlotte were roads connecting various churches.  Like Sharon Amity connecting both of those churches.  Providence Road headed south to Providence Presby and is on a ridge.  Many any US cities had the benefit or luck being laid out way after Charlotte they chose grid patterns.  Look at the location of ridges between our creeks that primarily flow NE to SW and you will see roads.  

I never heard of that story about an immigrant suggesting roads. I think our roads connected small rural communities and this was the case when my mom was a little girl.  Southpark was a cow pasture, there was nothing but farms between the hamlets of Pineville and Matthews.  All what we call south Charlotte was farms and mainly cotton fields.  This was less than 90 years ago. Derita and Newell were small rural communities.  Steele Creek was farmland too.   Think of how roads connect in Union County especially northern county today and that was what Mecklenburg county was like 90 years ago.  

You have to realize how small Charlotte was up until WW2 

Charlotte's curvilinear and gridless road network, outside of the 277 loop, appears to have a historical antecedent from its frontier days.  The location of Presbyterian meetinghouses in Mecklenburg County reflects the meandering and gridless settlement pattern of the early Scots-Irish settlers of the Carolina backcountry, circa 1750s- 1760s.

"Down the Indians' well-trodden path, close behind the traders came hordes of settlers."  The overwhelming majority of the early settlers of the Carolina backcountry were Scots-Irish Presbyterians.  "The Scots-Irish never were Irish.  The term does not denote bloodlines; it was a geographical heritage.  These Scots-Irish were descendants of Scottish parents who had fled the harsh Scottish Lowcountry" ...  "As soon as the predominantly Scots-Irish settlers built their early one-room cabins, they moved their modest goods from the wagons, where they had camped in the interim.  Their next concern was always a church.  Until the families had a building, they convened in an agreed-upon central spot for preaching - a home, a grove of trees or beneath a large, patriarchal oak, their horses hitched to saplings and their lunches tucked under the wagon seats." ...  "The Scots-Irish brought with them the very serious conviction that education makes the man and the family.  To that end, a spiritual leader was sought to teach them.  Families often settled within several miles of one another in order to attract a preacher."  ...  Throughout  Mecklenburg County (formed in 1762 from a portion of Anson County), "a circle of sister churches sprang up, forming a loop of Presbyterian meetinghouses - Rocky River (circa 1750), Sugar Creek (1755), Steele Creek (1760), Hopewell (1762), Poplar Tent (1764), Centre (1765) and Providence (1767).  From these emerged the county leaders."

Source:  Kratt, Mary Norton.  Charlotte, North Carolina: a Brief History,  Chap. 2: A Town on the Trading Path at pp. 17-25.  Charleston, S.C.: The History Press, 2009.

Edited June 8, 2021 by QCxpat

[CltFlyer]

I was browsing a popular aviation forum website today and came across a trip report from New Years 2020.  A German family decided to celebrate New Years in Charlotte due to a offer that Lufthansa was having.  It is very complimentary and is a great example of how flights can generate interest in a city ( albeit likely a rare example).  

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1438501

[KJHburg]

 I was up in Durham today with long time residents of Durham and NC natives.  One person I was talking to worked at the Duke School of Medicine in a teaching role but did not know that Wake Forest and Atrium was opening a medical school in Charlotte.  I told her Charlotte does not like being told no like we were by the state so we found a partner.   She was talking about her new home and said her commute had doubled from northern Durham County to Duke. I saw what is it now she said 20 minutes!  I laughed and said so it went from 10 to 20 and you moved much further out.  That is a great commute in Charlotte!

  She said some of her coworkers live in Cary, Apex, Holly Springs and Morrisville all in Wake County a separate metro supposedly from Durham and then go to their jobs at Duke.  The Census Bureau counts Raleigh and Durham as separate metros but they were formerly one big metro.If this metro area is reunited again and I think it should it would be over 2 million and bigger than Nashville.  Not as big as Charlotte of course but bigger than Nashville.  My north Raleigh friends 2 of them both work in the RTP in Durham County.  Both core counties of Wake and Durham have lots of jobs but they are really one big metro area hopefully the Census bureau sees to re-unite them. 

[Windsurfer]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:30 AM, KJHburg said:

Much of our original roads outside the small grid of uptown Charlotte were roads connecting various churches.  Like Sharon Amity connecting both of those churches.  Providence Road headed south to Providence Presby and is on a ridge.  Many any US cities had the benefit or luck being laid out way after Charlotte they chose grid patterns.  Look at the location of ridges between our creeks that primarily flow NE to SW and you will see roads.  

I never heard of that story about an immigrant suggesting roads. I think our roads connected small rural communities and this was the case when my mom was a little girl.  Southpark was a cow pasture, there was nothing but farms between the hamlets of Pineville and Matthews.  All what we call south Charlotte was farms and mainly cotton fields.  This was less than 90 years ago. Derita and Newell were small rural communities.  Steele Creek was farmland too.   Think of how roads connect in Union County especially northern county today and that was what Mecklenburg county was like 90 years ago.  

You have to realize how small Charlotte was up until WW2 

I bet my mom knew your mom.  She died last August at 94. Was raised near Carmel Rd., exactly between Mathews and Pineville.  She said there was a single school bus that traveled between the two towns and all the way up to the Grahams Diary farm (Park Rd. Shopping Center), and that the bus never quite filled up. (1930s). All the students went to Sharon Elementary , including Billy Graham. Her maiden name was Furr, FWIW.

And, FWIW, I remember myself when South Park was a cow pasture. I'm *only 62.

[LKN704]

I would vote on not being able to read a map/follow directions. 

The thing I find most puzzling is that they picked an itinerary that had a 9 hour layover but neglected to plan what to do during that 9 hours...they could have even driven to Asheville for lunch and to walk around during that time period. 

Compared to Boston, Miami, Chicago, Charlotte will always be small. Compared to our peer cities in terms of CSA size (Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Portland OR), I don't view any of them as a big city, but rather somewhat medium. 

I don't think you necessarily need big names to improve a city's marketability factor, but rather it would help if the government really tried to market CLT as the Austin government attempted to market Austin some 20 years ago. 

[KJHburg]

15 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

I bet my mom knew your mom.  She died last August at 94. Was raised near Carmel Rd., exactly between Mathews and Pineville.  She said there was a single school bus that traveled between the two towns and all the way up to the Grahams Diary farm (Park Rd. Shopping Center), and that the bus never quite filled up. (1930s). All the students went to Sharon Elementary , including Billy Graham. Her maiden name was Furr, FWIW.

And, FWIW, I remember myself when South Park was a cow pasture. I'm *only 62.

My aunt Francis "Frankie" Elizabeth Howell is a graduate of Sharon school she died about a decade ago. 

[davidclt]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:39 PM, Windsurfer said:

FWIW, I remember myself when South Park was a cow pasture.

My mom still laughs every time she drives through South Park because this is where they would go "{We used to come out here to] the Morrison turkey farm for Sunday picnics, they think they're such hot stuff!"

[Windsurfer]

2 hours ago, davidclt said:

My mom still laughs every time she drives through South Park because this is where they would go "{We used to come out here to] the Morrison turkey farm for Sunday picnics, they think they're such hot stuff!"

Wow, another one I bet my mom knew.   The log cabin where she was born was on Sharon View, about half a mile from Carmel Road. One of her uncles owned part of the old quarry where Mountain Brook Swim club is now.  Her uncle was 'killed' by an explosion during lunch hour and the quarry fell into some other partner's hands.  I digress now, but there's a little intrigue in that story.  My mom remembers when he was killed because a young black child came running up to tell her mom that he saw a "white guy" put the dynamite beside the path her uncle always took home for lunch.... The child had been climbing trees and the while man didn't know there were eyes.  I have a few other stories like this from that era and area.

[davidclt]

4 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

Wow, another one I bet my mom knew. 

I think my mom was probably 20 years younger (born 1944). She grew up in Myers Park on Hastings Drive. About 12 years ago I accidentally encountered the woman that tore down the house she grew up in so they could wedge a house onto the lot which was poorly massed for the street. My dad (born 1943) grew up on East Blvd (the house, still standing, is now part of the Zen Massage empire).

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

I think my mom was probably 20 years younger (born 1944). She grew up in Myers Park on Hastings Drive. About 12 years ago I accidentally encountered the woman that tore down the house she grew up in so they could wedge a house onto the lot which was poorly massed for the street. My dad (born 1943) grew up on East Blvd (the house, still standing, is now part of the Zen Massage empire).

More or less across the street where Randolph Scott grew up, no?

[davidclt]

16 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

More or less across the street where Randolph Scott grew up, no?

I think Randolph Scott grew up on Dilworth Road, just below Arosa.

[videtur quam contuor]

true.  Randolph Scott, top Hollywood actor of 30's and 40's, was from Charlotte. Same side of Dilworth Road as Covenant Church at Arosa corner. A fine house made more magnificent in recent years and top of the hill. Could hardly be a better location.

He is buried in Elmwood cemetery.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by tarhoosier

[KJHburg]

Charlotte brand goes to festival in Nashville's Centennial Park.  Nashvegas it is BO TIME!  and this is not your Nashville Hot chicken either LOL. 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by KJHburg

[tozmervo]

Red Ventures write-up in the NYT 

You’ve Never Heard of the Biggest Digital Media Company in America https://nyti.ms/3sjt3RS