South Carolina Metro Population

[Spartan]

I dont think T&C is being implemented very well if at all. Its a start though.

I don't think its so much the GOP as it is America (and SC) in general. We all view property as something that is ours and we should be able to do with it as we please with out government interference. We all know the benefits of zoning, but its hard to convince suburban/rural people of it because of their non-urban nature.

I see the resistance of zoning is more of a fear of "when will it stop." If you can make someone not add an awning to their house, then yuou could also not let them build a garage or a swimming pool or what have you. If there could be some sort of insurance that this type of micromanaging wouldn't occur and you could get the word out, I think that more people would be ok with zoning.

edit: I see that a reply has been made about the T&C thing. I didn't know it had been implemented

[vicupstate]

I dont think T&C is being implemented very well if at all. Its a start though.

I don't think its so much the GOP as it is America (and SC) in general. We all view property as something that is ours and we should be able to do with it as we please with out government interference. We all know the benefits of zoning, but its hard to convince suburban/rural people of it because of their non-urban nature.

I see the resistance of zoning is more of a fear of "when will it stop." If you can make someone not add an awning to their house, then yuou could also not let them build a garage or a swimming pool or what have you. If there could be some sort of insurance that this type of micromanaging wouldn't occur and you could get the word out, I think that more people would be ok with zoning.

edit: I see that a reply has been made about the T&C thing. I didn't know it had been implemented

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zoning is prevalent throughout nearly all densely developed cities and counties. Zoning merely designates a usage for property. It does not prevent development unless the specific zoning classification limits it. Only areas designated as Rural, Conservation or Agriculture would limit sprawl. A zoning ordinance in and of itself does not control or limit sprawl, it only designates the TYPE of sprawl allowed(ie commercial, residential,etc) for a given parcel. Richland County has had a zoning ordinance for decades, Town & Country goes further than mere zoning to limit or forbid development to only certain designated areas.

It is not just coincidence that Richland is majority democrat and supports government regulation against sprawl, and Greenville is republican majority and is opposed to additional government regulation of land. It is basic to their respective philosophies about government.

[monsoon]

This is a very interesing thread and having been born and raised in SC, with many relatives still living there I have a few comments:

Some of the worst traffic that I have seen in the state is on Hwy 17 just north of Charleston through Mt. Pleasant. That area is where the real growth is these days in Charleston and all of it dumps onto that Hwy. There is growth in N. Charleston, but because it is much more distant from the water, it is not growing as fast. In the afternoons it can take an hour or more to travel just a few miles down that stretch of Hwy. One of the biggest dissapointments in Charleston is the nice new Ravenel bridge with no provision for adding a commuter rail line across it in the future.

Metro Charlotte is a mixed bag with development. I will say that Charlotte has learned from mistakes like Atlanta (somewhat) and is doing what it can to balance property rights vs good development. And the communities around it in Mecklenburg even more so. Huntersville & Davidson restrict development the most and interestingly enough are non-partisan in their election process. The larger metro's in SC could learn a few things from Charlotte's mistakes and in what Charlotte is doing correctly. For example, the only rail based transit system currently operating in the Carolinas is Charlotte's Trolley which was built completely with local funds and volunteer efforts.

Atlanta's biggest problem that really isn't an issue for the most part in Carolina's cities, is its huge racial divide. That has typically pushed whites out past the perimeter and black inside. While Atlanta toutes itself as progressive, other than Detroit & St. Louis, I don't think that I have seen any other city in the US with such bad development caused by racial problems.

Beltways are really bad in the long run. 485 in Charlotte is a state project which was concieved and funded in the late 70s but has a life of its own now. In the 90s the city tried to get the state to pare it back, but with little success. If SC cities continue to build these things, then the key is to limit development around the exchanges and keep the number of exchanges very low. Treat it as a transit system and not a system that opens land for development. The early parts of 485 did not follow this rule and we have the mess around Pineville to show for it. Zoning has been put in place to prevent this problem on the newer sections.

Columbia, Greenville & Spartanburg really need to start looking now at how rail transit could help with development before it is too late. Unfortunately the GOP is very anti-transit so this will be difficult in a state such as SC to pull off. Federal transit funding (except for highways) has become so tight that almost no new systems get approved anymore. The only way that SC can build any kind of rail transit is to pass local taxes to pay for it.

[btoy]

Some of the other problems in Greenville is that where there is zoning there no longer is agrucultural zoning, most agrucultural land is zoned some form of residential or unzoned alltogether therfor nothing stops developers from makeing more and more neighborhoods farther and farther from the City Centers.

Also, I find there is a misunderstanding among many upstate residents about what resposible development is. Most people don't care that you are building more and more homes they are mad becuase they think those new homes create more and more traffic. THey see high density developments as the reason for bad traffic when traffic problems are probubly caused more by the fact that people live so far away from where they work meaning it takes longer for people to get to work meaning more cars on the road at anygiven time.

When a knew subdivision is planned at and people find out it is high density they go nuts, calling the developers greedy and the such, and they fight it in county council.

Lets say that the Market Demands 400 new homes and you can stick that on 100 acres people have a fit, they don't realize that if they fight it and the county only approves 200 then another 100 acres most be destroyed to provide that additional 200 homes and thuse the town keeps sprawling out further. And becuase people like to be close to Grocery Stores and Drugy Stores and Restaurant that means more and more of those even though the exsisting business probubly are not at capacity. I can't remember a time other than the day beofre thanksgiving that I have had to wait in any real line at a grocery store.

[Spartan]

One of the biggest dissapointments in Charleston is the nice new Ravenel bridge with no provision for adding a commuter rail line across it in the future.

Columbia, Greenville & Spartanburg really need to start looking now at how rail transit could help with development before it is too late.  Unfortunately the GOP is very anti-transit so this will be difficult in a state such as SC to pull off.  Federal transit funding (except for highways) has become so tight that almost no new systems get approved anymore.  The only way that SC can build any kind of rail transit is to pass local taxes to pay for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Charleston ever gets rail it could have its own bridge, but I could see where Charlestonians might prefer an underground system to serve Downtown and then to either side of the river, then once out of downtown a surface line would have to be used. The center of 17 is perfect for that (wide medians and used for through traffic anyway).

This is a problem in itself. South Carolinians are over taxed as it is, and generally won't approve any new taxes. I voted for the local option sales tax, but it was overwhelmingly defeated. Not to mention that our budget surplusses are getting eaten up by pork. Gov Sanford keeps trying to use it to pay off the debt, but the General Assembly can't seem to see how that is beneficial. Point being, there isn't going to be any money from the state for the forseable future.

If you go to Spartanburg you'd say "this is a nice town, but I can't see why it would need mass transit." Same for Anderson. You could probably justify one for Greenville, but not very well. This is how I see the average politician looking at it.

I think part of the problem is the sprawling of industry and commerce. Mass transit is useless if it doesn't take you where you need to go. If your company isn't located along or near a transit line you won't use it.

[btoy]

I see the need for mass transit, but not with in the cityies, but between the citites though I think the whole mass of Greenville, Greer, Taylors, TR, Simpsonville, Mauldin, Fountain Inn, Powdersville, Easley etc needs it.

THe first place you will see Mass Transit will be Clemson to Greenville.

Your right though, there needs to be more money for it and Taxes arn't the way to do it. Thing is too that if you used tax dollars no matter what they were allocated for before transit you would have a people in an uproar about how the school system is being robbed. But the school system gets to much money as it is.

[goodbye]

BTW, someone had previously mentioned that the Southern Connector (Greenville's I-185) should have been built around the north side of the city. Well I had heard awhile back about plans for a Northern Connector from Greer (probably I-85 somewhere) to Travelers Rest (probably US 25). At the time, talk was that money would be the heaviest issue when implementation of the plan became considered. The current status is unknown to me.

[The_sandlapper]

^Now that would have been a whole lot more sucsessful I think. I hated having to take Laurens Rd. to Stone Ave, to US-25 to get to Travelers Rest to get to work. The main thing was I hated having to sit at all the stop light between Haywood Rd. and TR.

[Spartan]

SCDOT has info on all current or upcoming projects on their website. I wish they had all planned projects on there.

[goodbye]

For those who haven't seen it, here is another thread where you can post any of your bad traffic experiences and share some ideas on how to improve the area's road condition. Your input is greatly appreciated!

Worst Roads in the Upstate & Midlands

[Spartan]

This thread is slightly better organized and accurate than the other one, so this one will be pinned instead

[teshadoh]

Here is a 2004 update (includes metro & micro):

37 Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, NC-SC 1474734

71 Columbia, SC 679456

83 Greenville, SC 583867

84 Charleston-North Charleston, SC 583434

93 Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC 515314

165 Spartanburg, SC 264230

190 Myrtle Beach-Conway-North Myrtle Beach, SC 217608

201 Florence, SC 197256

227 Anderson, SC 173550

247 Hilton Head Island-Beaufort, SC 156918

364 Sumter, SC 105943

406 Orangeburg, SC 90779

480 Seneca, SC 69057

488 Greenwood, SC 67519

506 Lancaster, SC 63135

532 Georgetown, SC 59790

568 Gaffney, SC 53782

695 Walterboro, SC 39595

735 Newberry, SC 37209

779 Chester, SC 33563

801 Dillon, SC 31289

824 Union, SC 28862

832 Bennettsville, SC 28147

Consolidated:

20 Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, NC-SC 2067810

43 Greenville-Anderson-Seneca, SC 826474

49 Columbia-Newberry, SC 716665

78 Spartanburg-Gaffney-Union, SC 346874

81 Myrtle Beach-Conway-Georgetown, SC 277398

[The_sandlapper]

Here is a 2004 update (includes metro & micro):

37 Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, NC-SC 1474734

71 Columbia, SC 679456

83 Greenville, SC 583867

84 Charleston-North Charleston, SC 583434

93 Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC 515314

165 Spartanburg, SC 264230

190 Myrtle Beach-Conway-North Myrtle Beach, SC 217608

201 Florence, SC 197256

227 Anderson, SC 173550

247 Hilton Head Island-Beaufort, SC 156918

364 Sumter, SC 105943

406 Orangeburg, SC 90779

480 Seneca, SC 69057

488 Greenwood, SC 67519

506 Lancaster, SC 63135

532 Georgetown, SC 59790

568 Gaffney, SC 53782

695 Walterboro, SC 39595

735 Newberry, SC 37209

779 Chester, SC 33563

801 Dillon, SC 31289

824 Union, SC 28862

832 Bennettsville, SC 28147

Consolidated:

20 Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, NC-SC 2067810

43 Greenville-Anderson-Seneca, SC 826474

49 Columbia-Newberry, SC 716665

78 Spartanburg-Gaffney-Union, SC 346874

81 Myrtle Beach-Conway-Georgetown, SC 277398

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You wouldn't happen to have the %growth numbers too, would ya?

[teshadoh]

^ I posted the growth numbers for the past year in 'Urban Discussion' for metros.

[krazeeboi]

I hate it that Concord bumped Rock Hill out of the Charlotte MSA designation. Oh well...