Parking problem downtown - too much of it? Not enough?

[demhem]

12 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I provided that app data to people at the city and they said "Uhhh, yeah that's not correct." 

demhem I please ask that you quit spreading incorrect information on this site. The problem is that the city cannot just "give" all of the parking spaces available over to office space owners/users. What about residents downtown? What about retailers downtown who need parking? If they committed all of the city parking spaces to officer users and monthly parkers, you can certainly kiss all the retailers goodbye, the few that are surviving. 

Private lot owners do not all provide monthly parking permits. 

There are many different categories of parking demand: office workers, residents, retail customers and just plain downtown attraction visitors. Each has a unique perspective of parking issues. What is being ignored right now is office workers and downtown office employers. So much so that the GR Chamber of Commerce and other business stakeholders have gotten involved. Call it what you will, but it's called incompetence in my book.  

 

I would assume that the margin of error is not over 1,000 spaces. 

Please point to where I'm spreading misinformation? I'm partaking in a dialogue about parking and offering explanations and options. Is it not possible for a private business to contract with another private business downtown for parking? That is precisely what my company does. Should I caveat my comments with "I'm not making black/white statements here, and i'm simply stating that there are always more options available than what is immediately in front of you?"

I never suggested that the City hand over all of the public parking downtown to office space owners/users, just that there should be a dialogue about potentially adding more as a capacity solution. I also never suggested that all private lot owners provide monthly parking permits. Please don't strawman my comments. 

Incompetence is a strong term; I just think that we all disagree. Maybe there is common ground? 

[demhem]

16 hours ago, x99 said:

That's a good point. On any given day you have to deduct quite a few spaces for handicap marked spots, and for doubled parked spots. That easily puts 20-30 spaces out of play for a decent sized ramp. Across a bunch of ramps, it adds up. And demhem's insinuation that there are "private" lots with lots of spaces available is a fiction. The privately owned but public Ellis ramp on Pearl and most if not all Ellis lots with monthly parking are waitlisted. And truly private lots? Who cares? That's lot trying to watch your neighbor's 85" TV through his picture window and pretending it's yours.

Sure, you are absolutely correct in that there may be quite a few spaces taken up by handicap and double parking; the app does not account for that. However, without doing a study and finding an average I'm not sure you easily come up with what that number is. Maybe the City should and note a potential margin of error on the app for users? 

[GRDadof3]

58 minutes ago, demhem said:

I would assume that the margin of error is not over 1,000 spaces. 

Please point to where I'm spreading misinformation? I'm partaking in a dialogue about parking and offering explanations and options. Is it not possible for a private business to contract with another private business downtown for parking? That is precisely what my company does. Should I caveat my comments with "I'm not making black/white statements here, and i'm simply stating that there are always more options available than what is immediately in front of you?"

I never suggested that the City hand over all of the public parking downtown to office space owners/users, just that there should be a dialogue about potentially adding more as a capacity solution. I also never suggested that all private lot owners provide monthly parking permits. Please don't strawman my comments. 

Incompetence is a strong term; I just think that we all disagree. Maybe there is common ground? 

Incompetence that it has gotten to this point with no real solutions other than "mode shifting" people to other forms of transportation. 

In case you didn't know, despite the influx of residents and businesses downtown, the city is facing some major financial issues today that will only get worse on the next 5, 10, 15 years. This information is no secret and gets talked about on the press and during every local election.

Saying that this is just a difference of opinion is a scary proposition. And the city/dda being flippant about businesses closing and leaving is absolutely incompetent. 

I agree that there are definitely solutions but the city has taken the stance that the business community should solve these problems. The days of the city being a beacon of public-private collaborations seems to be on shaky ground.

Sorry for calling you out personally though.

[demhem]

57 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Incompetence that it has gotten to this point with no real solutions other than "mode shifting" people to other forms of transportation. 

In case you didn't know, despite the influx of residents and businesses downtown, the city is facing some major financial issues today that will only get worse on the next 5, 10, 15 years. This information is no secret and gets talked about on the press and during every local election.

Saying that this is just a difference of opinion is a scary proposition. And the city/dda being flippant about businesses closing and leaving is absolutely incompetent. 

I agree that there are definitely solutions but the city has taken the stance that the business community should solve these problems. The days of the city being a beacon of public-private collaborations seems to be on shaky ground.

Sorry for calling you out personally though.

What point have we gotten to though? Are there an immense number of vacancies that I'm not familiar with? Colliers International recently indicated in their annual report that office space prices downtown are still on the rise (and at an all time high) which suggests higher demand and low availability. The office vacancy rate in the downtown is currently reported at hovering between 7 and 9%. This is considered healthy by many standards and low for a mid-sized Midwestern City. This low vacancy is also evident in my experience in the building my company has leased for 20 years. The building owner renovated the garden floor and added three office suites which were immediately filled; my building has zero vacant units currently. 

Am I missing some signs of economic decay downtown? There is always business turnover in the marketplace.

 

[x99]

2 hours ago, demhem said:

What point have we gotten to though? Are there an immense number of vacancies that I'm not familiar with? Colliers International recently indicated in their annual report that office space prices downtown are still on the rise (and at an all time high) which suggests higher demand and low availability. The office vacancy rate in the downtown is currently reported at hovering between 7 and 9%. 

You also have a single player who is so large that they can control supply and goose the statistics.  Whether they do is another matter, but I'm pretty sure 50 Monroe ain't had no one in it for a loooong time now.  Normal landlords don't/can't/won't do that.  For vacancy calculation purposes, the only space which is counted is space which is actively being solicited for lease.  How much empty space is actually out there which cannot be serviced by parking? Who knows, but it is not insignificant. But there is not even a point (for a major landlord) in listing it because it cannot be leased and would only serve to drive down rates. I suspect a major commercial broker would be able to tell you all about more than a few pocket listings.

[GRDadof3]

7 minutes ago, x99 said:

You also have a single player who is so large that they can control supply and goose the statistics.  Whether they do is another matter, but I'm pretty sure 50 Monroe ain't had no one in it for a loooong time now.  Normal landlords don't/can't/won't do that.  For vacancy calculation purposes, the only space which is counted is space which is actively being solicited for lease.  How much empty space is actually out there which cannot be serviced by parking? Who knows, but it is not insignificant. But there is not even a point (for a major landlord) in listing it because it cannot be leased and would only serve to drive down rates. I suspect a major commercial broker would be able to tell you all about more than a few pocket listings.

Exactly, once a building is out of circulation and not being listed as for lease or for sale, it's not counted in that occupancy stat anymore. It's like the unemployment rate, it doesn't reflect the people who aren't even in the workforce.

 

 

2 hours ago, demhem said:

What point have we gotten to though? Are there an immense number of vacancies that I'm not familiar with? Colliers International recently indicated in their annual report that office space prices downtown are still on the rise (and at an all time high) which suggests higher demand and low availability. The office vacancy rate in the downtown is currently reported at hovering between 7 and 9%. This is considered healthy by many standards and low for a mid-sized Midwestern City. This low vacancy is also evident in my experience in the building my company has leased for 20 years. The building owner renovated the garden floor and added three office suites which were immediately filled; my building has zero vacant units currently. 

Am I missing some signs of economic decay downtown? There is always business turnover in the marketplace.

 

Nobody used the word "decay." But the downtown business community is concerned about parking, and several employers have left because of parking. If they laid out a case to you that showed data and bad experiences with the parking system as it exists today, how would you respond to all of these business owners? 

[joeDowntown]

5 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Nobody used the word "decay." But the downtown business community is concerned about parking, and several employers have left because of parking. If they laid out a case to you that showed data and bad experiences with the parking system as it exists today, how would you respond to all of these business owners? 

"Isn't it a great day for a bike ride?"

joe

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

"Isn't it a great day for a bike ride?"

joe

[GRDadof3]

Are there creative solutions in here? Somewhere?

http://www.grbj.com/blogs/8-construction/post/88111-time-to-get-creative-on-parking-in-grand-rapids

[x99]

39 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Are there creative solutions in here? Somewhere?

http://www.grbj.com/blogs/8-construction/post/88111-time-to-get-creative-on-parking-in-grand-rapids

I didn't see any. I can think of quite a few things more creative than that.... Google car stacker and rotary car lift and you'll see all sort of creative solutions for stuffing in more cars.

 

 

[demhem]

I'm seeing the potential for a lot of assumptions here. Is there data from another source that tells a different story than Colliers? I'm trying to find metrics and indicators to explain the situation. GR Forward provides parking statistics as well but I get the feeling many of you wouldn't consider that as a legitimate source either. What facts are we using to educate our stance or opinions?

[SupercityGR]

I think city leaders need to require so much parking per apartment or office sq ft. Easy 

[EastownLeo]

9 minutes ago, SupercityGR said:

I think city leaders need to require so much parking per apartment or office sq ft. Easy 

Ha, any developer knows how to get around these requirements.  they exist already.

[GRDadof3]

11 minutes ago, EastownLeo said:

Ha, any developer knows how to get around these requirements.  they exist already.

Ask for a waiver and you shall receive, even when most of the neighbors do not support the waiver. 

31 minutes ago, demhem said:

I'm seeing the potential for a lot of assumptions here. Is there data from another source that tells a different story than Colliers? I'm trying to find metrics and indicators to explain the situation. GR Forward provides parking statistics as well but I get the feeling many of you wouldn't consider that as a legitimate source either. What facts are we using to educate our stance or opinions?

http://www.wzzm13.com/money/business/grbj/parking-in-grand-rapids-at-95-percent-capacity/407002704

The Chamber had a meeting discussing the cash-out idea:

http://www.grandrapids.org/grand-rapids-parking-conversation/

The "Mobility" department is looking at securing space from churches and other organizations, and I know several city commissioners are taking this issue seriously. 

http://www.grand-rapids.mi.us/enterprise-services/Parking-Services/Parking Commission/Mobile GR Commission Agenda Packet for May 11, 2017.pdf

But that's only anticipated to add 300 - 400 spaces. One residential project approved without its own parking could eat that up pretty quickly. 

It is too bad that this has become a major thing for the downtown city leaders to deal with, but a little more foresight could have probably lessened things. 

[x99]

54 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

It is too bad that this has become a major thing for the downtown city leaders to deal with, but a little more foresight could have probably lessened things. 

Well, to be fair, before Spectrum brought in about 500 employees I think I was pretty much the only person in "pre-2015" who said who said we needed more ramps.  Even then, it wasn't due to a lack of space, but to increase the supply and reduce the cost in order to grow downtown.  No one saw Spectrum coming in and gobbling up so many spaces in one fell swoop in a building that traditionally did not consume even a fraction of the parking it now does.  At that point, I almost immediately said we need another ramp because we are about to have a severe shortage. Within a few months, we did.  The city is still between a rock and a hard place in one respect, because if Spectrum leaves, they would likely have an adequate supply to meet demand, although still not an adequate supply to grow downtown.

1 hour ago, demhem said:

I'm seeing the potential for a lot of assumptions here. Is there data from another source that tells a different story than Colliers? I'm trying to find metrics and indicators to explain the situation. GR Forward provides parking statistics as well but I get the feeling many of you wouldn't consider that as a legitimate source either. What facts are we using to educate our stance or opinions?

Parking pass availability is publicly available on the city's website.  The Ellis ramp and lots are a simple phone call.  All waitlisted.  For "true" lease rates, if you want to read between a few lines, look at the buildings which are known to be owned by an independent landlord or else are a sublease in an existing building.  Rack rates for most major landlords mean next to nothing until you understand build out allowances and all sorts of other fun stuff that heavily affects the "true" rate. And CWD-owned buildings basically have no listings right now. Are they really all filled up?  No.  You have to contact them for "specific details". 

Edited June 8, 2017 by x99

[thebeerqueer]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Ask for a waiver and you shall receive, even when most of the neighbors do not support the waiver. 

Spot on! I don't quite understand how desperate the city is for development that they're allowing large scale projects to include little to no on-site parking. I understand some incentive waivers and wanting to seem progressive but, as its been pointed out here, the majority of people use cars to get around. 

Total missed opportunity.

[demhem]

23 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Ask for a waiver and you shall receive, even when most of the neighbors do not support the waiver. 

http://www.wzzm13.com/money/business/grbj/parking-in-grand-rapids-at-95-percent-capacity/407002704

The Chamber had a meeting discussing the cash-out idea:

http://www.grandrapids.org/grand-rapids-parking-conversation/

The "Mobility" department is looking at securing space from churches and other organizations, and I know several city commissioners are taking this issue seriously. 

http://www.grand-rapids.mi.us/enterprise-services/Parking-Services/Parking Commission/Mobile GR Commission Agenda Packet for May 11, 2017.pdf

But that's only anticipated to add 300 - 400 spaces. One residential project approved without its own parking could eat that up pretty quickly. 

It is too bad that this has become a major thing for the downtown city leaders to deal with, but a little more foresight could have probably lessened things. 

The 95% number is only for monthly permit parking, so that number is deceiving and rarely explained in the news articles I've seen. I walked through several of the parking structures yesterday afternoon which indicated large parking availability on the GR Parking app, and (without counting every single space) there is a lot of parking available. 

I'm talking about a third-party study or research. The Chamber is basing its recommendations off of a survey of its members and meetings with them. While public outreach and involvement is important, it does not tell the whole story regarding existing conditions, as opinion is not always reality. I'm not a politician; public opinion alone doesn't do it for me. The Chamber is a fantastic organization, but it has an agenda. They offer solutions, which is great, and I think that should be part of the overall discussion. I am a huge fan of remote parking (one of the Chamber's recommendations) as I've used it in other cities, including DC, Chicago, and in Munich, Germany. 

[demhem]

22 hours ago, x99 said:

Well, to be fair, before Spectrum brought in about 500 employees I think I was pretty much the only person in "pre-2015" who said who said we needed more ramps.  Even then, it wasn't due to a lack of space, but to increase the supply and reduce the cost in order to grow downtown.  No one saw Spectrum coming in and gobbling up so many spaces in one fell swoop in a building that traditionally did not consume even a fraction of the parking it now does.  At that point, I almost immediately said we need another ramp because we are about to have a severe shortage. Within a few months, we did.  The city is still between a rock and a hard place in one respect, because if Spectrum leaves, they would likely have an adequate supply to meet demand, although still not an adequate supply to grow downtown.

Parking pass availability is publicly available on the city's website.  The Ellis ramp and lots are a simple phone call.  All waitlisted.  For "true" lease rates, if you want to read between a few lines, look at the buildings which are known to be owned by an independent landlord or else are a sublease in an existing building.  Rack rates for most major landlords mean next to nothing until you understand build out allowances and all sorts of other fun stuff that heavily affects the "true" rate. And CWD-owned buildings basically have no listings right now. Are they really all filled up?  No.  You have to contact them for "specific details". 

Spectrum won't leave because they don't have enough parking; not with the agglomeration economy they've created on Michigan Avenue with the VanAndel Institute, MSU Medical School, GVSU Health Science, and the Ferris Pharmacy program. An agglomeration economy is a strong force. This is what attracts firms to a downtown and what keeps them there. They will find other solutions as they have with paying for their employee's access to the Silver Line. 

Again, a shortage of monthly passes does not equal a shortage of available spaces. You have someone creating an artificial limit. That ratio can be adjusted if open spaces during the day are underutilized. This is a viable option. 

Until I see data on vacancy rates that provides a different story than the Colliers update, everything I'm reading is hearsay. 

[joeDowntown]

31 minutes ago, demhem said:

Spectrum won't leave because they don't have enough parking; not with the agglomeration economy they've created on Michigan Avenue with the VanAndel Institute, MSU Medical School, GVSU Health Science, and the Ferris Pharmacy program. An agglomeration economy is a strong force. This is what attracts firms to a downtown and what keeps them there. They will find other solutions as they have with paying for their employee's access to the Silver Line. 

Again, a shortage of monthly passes does not equal a shortage of available spaces. You have someone creating an artificial limit. That ratio can be adjusted if open spaces during the day are underutilized. This is a viable option. 

Until I see data on vacancy rates that provides a different story than the Colliers update, everything I'm reading is hearsay. 

So when I park in a ramp daily that has a handful of spots open, that's hearsay? [confused]

One stat I would love to see. Number of "open" spots in downtown parking ramps that are unavailable because people don't know how to park and park over the lines. I can guarantee there is a big loss there. Knowing our leaders, they'll probably offer parking lessons, or a parking lesson app (because, you know, apps are cool) instead of addressing the bigger problem. haha

As for @x99, I agree that Spectrum added to the shortage, but shouldn't city leaders be prepared for this (or have a plan)? People complain about the major corporations staying in the burbs. What if one decided to move downtown? Would that be a BAD thing (you always reference Spectrum as being bad. I think 500 employees is good)?

It seems like there should be short, medium and long-term plans. GR seems to have a long-term plan that involves bicycles and autonomous vehicles.

Joe

[x99]

15 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

As for @x99, I agree that Spectrum added to the shortage, but shouldn't city leaders be prepared for this (or have a plan)? People complain about the major corporations staying in the burbs. What if one decided to move downtown? Would that be a BAD thing (you always reference Spectrum as being bad. I think 500 employees is good)?I

I don't think Spectrum is bad in the sense of employees that were brought in. The bad part was that their density was far higher than usual, which meant that lots of other space basically was deprived of parking.  It means no major corporations will move because they cannot.  I would agree that if not for the city's unpreparedness and subsequent intransigence re: parking, there would be no downside to someone doing what they did.  

Now, if I ran things, we would have a temporary lot on Calder Plaza already while the new parking ramp went up on any land we could find.  And if we couldn't find it?  A little something called eminent domain.  

[EastownLeo]

Went downtown and parked near one of the new Central payment spots. The ones with the electronic payment computer.  It was after 6pm and no where on the machine or on any of the parking spot signs did it say what the parking hours were.  Hours of enforcement were posted no where.  City must be making a lot more from those that don't know that the parking attendants go home at 6.

[wingbert]

2 hours ago, demhem said:

Spectrum won't leave because they don't have enough parking; not with the agglomeration economy they've created on Michigan Avenue with the VanAndel Institute, MSU Medical School, GVSU Health Science, and the Ferris Pharmacy program. An agglomeration economy is a strong force. This is what attracts firms to a downtown and what keeps them there. They will find other solutions as they have with paying for their employee's access to the Silver Line. 

Again, a shortage of monthly passes does not equal a shortage of available spaces. You have someone creating an artificial limit. That ratio can be adjusted if open spaces during the day are underutilized. This is a viable option. 

Until I see data on vacancy rates that provides a different story than the Colliers update, everything I'm reading is hearsay. 

[Prankster]

One thing I am wondering regarding empty parking spots - Because the monthly parking pass holders have already paid for their spot, doesn't the city have to hold a certain number of spots open for them?  So if you are seeing open spots at any given time, could those already be spoken for?

[organsnyder]

8 minutes ago, Prankster said:

One thing I am wondering regarding empty parking spots - Because the monthly parking pass holders have already paid for their spot, doesn't the city have to hold a certain number of spots open for them?  So if you are seeing open spots at any given time, could those already be spoken for?

My hunch is that they hold spots open. Though it would make sense for them to oversubscribe by a certain amount, and cut into the daily spots when necessary.

If we better manage the spaces we have, I bet we could get at least 10% more usable capacity in our existing public ramps/lots.

Edited June 9, 2017 by organsnyder

[wingbert]

Forget the monthly parkers and all that hoo ha for a moment and think about the hourly parkers who are the customers and clients of downtown businesses.  

Hey there Mr. or Mrs. Client, come to my office (for an hour or maybe two) for a meeting.  I know you don't work downtown and know all the parking options so here's all you have to do...

• "hope the ramp by my office has a spot available"
• "be sure to drop what you are doing and leave extra early so you have time to drive around until you find something"
• "park across the river and take the Dash bus over”
• “come to the closest bus stop to my office on the Silver Line or some other bus route”
• “ride your bike to my office”
• “park over at the Calder Plaza lot and walk to Heartside or wharever (real fun during next week’s temps)”
• “bring change and park at a meter (but don’t be 30 seconds late or the city will be there to ding you with a ticket)”
• “go and download an app to help you park downtown when you leave your office in your car to drive to my office”
• "your time isn't important so work around these things in order to do business with me"