Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[jtmonk]

18 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Nashville's numbers are definitely worse - often MUCH worse. At a quick scan I found a 171k count on I-24 leading into downtown, just one of six interstate legs going into downtown. 

Transportation Data Management System (ms2soft.com)

Also note that the NCDOT ADT numbers are from 2020 which would be skewed due to COVID.   If you zoom in you can click on the dots and look at the previous years.  For example, I-77 North of 277 had an ADT of 181k in 2016.   

[tozmervo]

8 hours ago, jtmonk said:

Also note that the NCDOT ADT numbers are from 2020 which would be skewed due to COVID.   If you zoom in you can click on the dots and look at the previous years.  For example, I-77 North of 277 had an ADT of 181k in 2016.   

Good call. I didn't catch the date on the counts.

[kermit]

So the current estimate for I-77 widening from the state line to the Brookshire is $2.1 billion (at the moment, seems fair to expect that estimate to double by the time construction starts). This amount would almost certainly pay for commuter rail to Rock Hill.  As a bonus, rail would not  get immediately  congested due to traffic generation, and would still function when fallen power lines perineally shut down the entire interstate.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/transportation-planning-group-gets-cost-estimate-expanding-i-77/QEIIPZGNUBCXTOFSVEILOQN5VQ/

Edited September 23, 2022 by kermit

[jthomas]

21 minutes ago, kermit said:

So the current estimate for I-77 widening from the state line to the Brookshire is $2.1 billion (at the moment, seems fair to expect that estimate to double). This would almost certainly pay for commuter rail to Rock Hill (and possibly a blue line extension to Pineville).  As a bonus, rail would not  get immediately  congested due to traffic generation.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/transportation-planning-group-gets-cost-estimate-expanding-i-77/QEIIPZGNUBCXTOFSVEILOQN5VQ/

Thank you - this is the context that is usually missing when people have sticker shock over transit projects. The alternatives are not free. And you’re right - for the the same price, Charlotte can have:

- a project that perpetuates auto dependence, fuels exurban sprawl (and not even in NC - it would be SC seeing the growth!), and would end up every bit as congested as the current facility within 10 years of opening, OR

- a project that would facilitate additional, more walkable development in areas that can leverage existing infrastructure, and that could move a greater number of people overall when operated at maximum capacity.

So tell me again, why is this even a question?

[Reverie39]

I'm curious about the last claim. We discussed earlier this week that Charlotte's busiest freeways can see something like 180,000 cars a day. Presumably that amounts to over 200,000 people. Is it really possible for a single commuter rail line that follows, say, I-77 to carry more than a hundred thousand people into the city and then back again every day?

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

I'm curious about the last claim. We discussed earlier this week that Charlotte's busiest freeways can see something like 180,000 cars a day. Presumably that amounts to over 200,000 people. Is it really possible for a single commuter rail line that follows, say, I-77 to carry more than a hundred thousand people into the city and then back again every day?

The $2.1 billion is for adding a new lane or two (not sure which), not a doubling of capacity. IIRC Interstate lanes generally carry around 25,000 vehicles per day which is certainly easy for a run of the mill commuter line to carry. The BNSF line in Chicago carries around 50,000 passengers per day while sharing tracks on one of the busiest freight corridors in the country. So it is certainly feasible for a commuter rail line to carry two lanes of interstate traffic, even after taking NS’ needs into account.

Edited September 23, 2022 by kermit

[jthomas]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

I'm curious about the last claim. We discussed earlier this week that Charlotte's busiest freeways can see something like 180,000 cars a day. Presumably that amounts to over 200,000 people. Is it really possible for a single commuter rail line that follows, say, I-77 to carry more than a hundred thousand people into the city and then back again every day?

I'll admit that I made that claim off the cuff, but I do think that math can back it up. A single freeway lane has a maximum capacity of about 2200-2300 vehicles per hour. If we generously assume an average of 2 occupants per vehicle (I would guess that a more accurate number is 1.25-1.5), that means a single freeway lane moves around 4500 people per hour at maximum capacity. For the purpose of this discussion, I think it's fair to consider the maximum theoretical capacity of a rail line, rather than a more realistic assumption of what level of service would actually be run. I'd imagine a using a railcar similar to the Silverliner V used by SEPTA in Philly and RTD in Denver for their electrified regional rail operations. Wikipedia lists the capacity for each 25 meter railcar as around 100 people. So an 8-car train (which admittedly is on the long side, but that's one of the advantages of trains - you can easily increase capacity by adding cars) would hold 800 people. Running a train every 5 minutes (12 tph) would therefore move 9600 people per hour, or at least 2 freeway lanes' worth. And that's not the maximum capacity of the railway - you could run even longer trains, you could run more trains (could probably manage up to 20-24 tph per direction on a dedicated 2-track railway), plus the crush load capacity of the train is probably at least 1.5x the listed capacity. So, I don't think it's unrealistic to say that a 2-track railway could move as many people at peak capacity as an 8-lane freeway, on a footprint that is at most 1/3 of the width of the freeway.

And yes, a Rock Hill regional rail service would not look like what I described above. But that doesn't change the geometric and mathematic realities that make railways superior at moving large volumes of people. 75 years of auto-oriented land use and transportation planning, plus American ignorance of global best practices in railways, means that Rock Hill regional rail would have a much lower ceiling. That still doesn't mean that freeway widening solves any problems - it just pushes the inevitable reckoning out by another generation.

[midtownclt]

Charlotte Ledger had a headline that states adding lanes to I-77 could take until 2045 or later.

How is Gaston County (pop ~230,000+ will get a 4th lane to I-85 while Mecklenburg with

(1,000,000+) will have to wait for a 4th lane to I-77.  Just build the damn toll lanes before I go crazy!

[MarcoPolo]

Well done "jthomas".   Your post is correct.   Rail infrastructure's capacity to outperform auto oriented infrastructure's capacity is without question.  I've copied a paragraph from my post back on page #194 of CATS Long Tern Transit Plan - Silver & Red Line in support below:  

"I know this is a round-a-bout response to your question Hushpuppy321, but if the Silver Line is viewed through the lenses above you can begin to see why the current alignment in some places, falls short.   Rail transit, light and heavy, provide high rider output with maximum efficiencies regarding space and energy needs (geometry again), and minimum emissions and noise externalities.   One light rail train carries 200 to 300 people.  A well planned system running trains at 5 to 10 minute intervals can easily deliver 10,000 people per hour through a station without delays, (as well as each station along its route, which gets into the topic of predictability and development, also fascinating, and a topic I can talk about for days).  Freeways are the exact opposite.  They are land, energy, pollution and noise maximizers, and like cancer in the body, destroy community tissue.   They are also delay prone, as rush hour traffic demonstrates, and are almost always through systems, which is to say their integrations with surrounding community are restricted.    Independence Blvd/Freeway and Brookshire Freeway's current ADT's hover at about 10,000 trips (read people) per hour, the equivalent of one light rail line.   In Charlotte, neither pass through centers of employment, they pass by them.   By shadowing their trajectories does the Silver Line increase job opportunities, or avoid delays to a transit rider's "opportunity shed"?   Will it permit easy and complimentary transit support in the form of BRT, or regular buses to further make a rider's opportunity shed a richer experience, or increase its footprint beyond the immediate corridor?  The answer to both questions is no.  If you envision each light rail corridor with the capacity of an Independence Blvd in terms of  "people moving",  minus the grossly exaggerated space needs, pollution generation, and traffic delays that come with, you become aware of the potential of the Sliver Line, and indeed all the other light rail lines too.   The most bang for you buck is not found along an existing system that serves different goals, but instead introducing new capacity along an underutilized system that aligns with the goals aspired to".  

Of course, in order to have light rail (any rail) function at its optimum level and deliver such capacities, there needs to be an urban fabric, and supportive transit system in place.   Both have to be encouraged in Charlotte to successfully wean the City from the dysfunctional spiral the current transportation network is spinning us into the future on.

For the sake of better discussions/debates, it may be helpful to start a thread that merges transportation and mobility (transit and highways), rather than have them silo'd in separate threads?    If design professionals can acknowledge the need to dismantle their silos, I feel we should follow suit here on UP   

[KJHburg]

I-40 and I-77 interchange rebuild which was sorely needed.  I-40 being one of the 4 transcontinental Interstate highways is an important highway and this is an important connection from the Charlotte region.  Looks like it will be done this coming winter.  (10,40,80,90 transcontinental interstates) 

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/i40-i77-interchange/Pages/default.aspx

all views from I-77 southbound starting from north of Statesville to south of I-40.    Basically a turbine interchange like what is at I-85 N and I-485 in the university area. 

[KJHburg]

Here is the video of the improvements to the interchange

 

[Third Strike]

Am I wrong in assuming this project has been under construction for about a decade? I recall this interchange being under construction back in 2011, unless that was a different project. 

[KJHburg]

33 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

Am I wrong in assuming this project has been under construction for about a decade? I recall this interchange being under construction back in 2011, unless that was a different project. 

No not that long maybe they were talking about it but it has been under construction the last few years. 

[JerseyBoy]

18 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Am I wrong in assuming this project has been under construction for about a decade? I recall this interchange being under construction back in 2011, unless that was a different project. 

You're not wrong. Construction started nearly nine years ago on the project.

Originally, it was supposed to be a four-level stack interchange. Constructed started on that design, but the whole project was put on pause for a number of years due to funding if I recall correctly. During this time, the project was redesigned.

The end result is what you have now: A scaled-back, cheaper, but still efficient (well, let's hope!) turbine-y interchange.

[KJHburg]

The toll lanes are coming to I-77 south of uptown but who will build them is the question?  Will the state and it wont happen to 2040s or will a private developer build them with completion a decade earlier?

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-10-20/dot-says-without-private-money-i-77-toll-lanes-wont-open-until-the-2040s

[Reverie39]

Was there a massive lane expansion as part of this project? Current Google Earth imagery shows both 40 and 77 having just two lanes each way around the interchange. The linked video above looks like a massive freeway going through an urban area.

[KJHburg]

13 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Was there a massive lane expansion as part of this project? Current Google Earth imagery shows both 40 and 77 having just two lanes each way around the interchange. The linked video above looks like a massive freeway going through an urban area.

yes they are widening both 77 and 40 through this Statesville intersection 

[tozmervo]

32 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

yes they are widening both 77 and 40 through this Statesville intersection 

It's worth noting there is a LOT of adjacent roadwork also part of the project or, at least, coordinated with this project. Exit 151 on I-40 (Hwy 21/Sullivan Road) was converted into a diverging diamond and the exits are separated out of I-40 and combined with the merge lanes from 77 now.  The bridges at Radio Road (I-40) and Hwy 64 (I-77) were also rebuilt, they are finishing the removal of the old Mocksville Hwy exit (that was never removed for some reason), and East Broad Street is getting a substantial and badly needed overhaul from the I-77 exit to Signal Hill Drive. 

Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised to see 77 widened to six lanes between Exit 36/Mooresville to Exit 50/Statesville sooner than later.  There might already be a STIP number for it.

[kermit]

Just throwing grenade to get my afternoon started.

 

[DMann]

You don't think existing tailpipes stink?????

[carolinaboy]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Just throwing grenade to get my afternoon started.

 

Jesus.

[kermit]

28 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

Jesus.

My work here is done!

[KJHburg]

Lots of questions not as many answers in the toll lanes on I-77 south.  Why can't the state issue bonds to pay off the debt with the tolls?  I will say the comparison of tolls per mile with the Monroe Bypass and I-77 N express lanes is not really fair.  One was a newly built highway instead of adding lanes and widening every bridge in a more urban area.  

all very interesting.  But the one question has been answered any expansion will be a tolled express lanes.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-10-27/after-presentation-on-new-i-77-toll-lanes-here-are-key-questions

[kayman]

12 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Lots of questions not as many answers in the toll lanes on I-77 south.  Why can't the state issue bonds to pay off the debt with the tolls?  I will say the comparison of tolls per mile with the Monroe Bypass and I-77 N express lanes is not really fair.  One was a newly built highway instead of adding lanes and widening every bridge in a more urban area.  

all very interesting.  But the one question has been answered any expansion will be a tolled express lanes.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-10-27/after-presentation-on-new-i-77-toll-lanes-here-are-key-questions

You ought to ask your state legislative representatives why they aren't pushing the NCDOT to do such?  The reason why NCDOT is in the state of affairs its currently in is because the GOP-led NCGA refused to fix the funding problems caused by the MAP Act fallout and back-to-back natural disasters in Eastern North Carolina. They can fix this by fixing the funding holes within NCDOT.

It's why I flame and antagonize the GOP-led NCGA because NCDOT can only do so much as it's limited in funding & prioritize funds towards projects available these days

[jjwilli]

50 minutes ago, kayman said:

You ought to ask your state legislative representatives why they aren't pushing the NCDOT to do such?  The reason why NCDOT is in the state of affairs its currently in is because the GOP-led NCGA refused to fix the funding problems caused by the MAP Act fallout and back-to-back natural disasters in Eastern North Carolina. They can fix this by fixing the funding holes within NCDOT.

It's why I flame and antagonize the GOP-led NCGA because NCDOT can only do so much as it's limited in funding & prioritize funds towards projects available these days

Worth noting that the only recent highway "expansions" in Mecklenburg County have primarily occurred or designed to serve majority Republican areas. Yes, all the projects were toll lanes (77 North, 485 from Ballantyne) but they at least received NCDOT funding. Coincidence?  I know the STIP was designed to remove the politicization of the process but has that been successful?