Economic Development in South Carolina

[CorgiMatt]

The attached article from WIS News contains an opinion from a lady who feels the NYT's story about Columbia's rough times goes too far and doesn't accurately reflect the current climate here. I will say that from the way the article reads Columbia sounds like a place with about 12-14% unemployment when it is only about 7.2%. Not that 7.2 is good. It sucks.

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9566899

[monsoon]

Newspaper, business journal, trade journal announcements are not even worth the ink they are printed on in these rags and are petty worthless for comparisons. What should be noticed is how many of these "announcements" ever see the light of day. I do note those are never printed when they don't happen.

[goodbye]

7.2% unemployment is not good though, especially when you consider that it is steadily rising. We can sit here and spin words all day, hoping to convince people that things are actually much better in our cities than most places, but it is not going to change the fact that more and more people are out of work each month. I realize that tourism is a good source for instant job creation, but it is a very volatile industry when times are tough financially. As the economic outlook clearly indicates things will get worse this next year, putting too many eggs in the tourism and hospitality basket may not be wise for cities such as Columbia and Greenville. Places like Charleston, Asheville, and Myrtle Beach may not be as severely harmed by spending more for tourism, since that is one of their primary industries, but it is still being affected by less people having enough cash to visit and spend it there.

Read this document for more information about the economic situation.

[krazeeboi]

^Myrtle Beach is already in a deep bind due to the drastic slowdown of the local construction industry. Whatever gains the city might experience in tourism can't make up for that.

[monsoon]

......

Read this document for more information about the economic situation.

^The author who wrote that seems to lack a basic understanding of what has caused the American economy to collapse. BTW, the often cited, but little understood, unemployment index is not a measurement of people who are unable to find a full time job. Real unemployment is much higher.

[goodbye]

Krazeeboi, I realize that, which was the reason for mentioning the volatility of tourism and hospitality. My reason for including MB in the comment was that they could benefit better from spending on the industry than places like Columbia and Greenville, since that is their primary industry. They're alomst bound by that fact. If they don't spend on tourism, they lose, but if they do, there is no guarantee that it will yield much, if any, profit.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Skyliner

[breed]

^The author who wrote that seems to lack a basic understanding of what has caused the American economy to collapse. BTW, the often cited, but little understood, unemployment index is not a measurement of people who are unable to find a full time job. Real unemployment is much higher.

I think by making that statement you are now obligated to enlighten us with your brilliance.

[goodbye]

^The author who wrote that seems to lack a basic understanding of what has caused the American economy to collapse. BTW, the often cited, but little understood, unemployment index is not a measurement of people who are unable to find a full time job. Real unemployment is much higher.

Where is your document on the subject? I would very much like to read it, if it has been published yet. I may not agree with everything the author wrote, but at least he took the time to share his perspective instead of simply tearing other people apart without sharing his insight.

[Spartan]

The Big Three are pretty much in the same boat as far as unemployment is concerned. It's the Sumters and Myrtle Beaches that are truly suffering.

The NYT article was pretty interesting. The point wasn't to make it look as though Columbia is doing worse than any other city/metro area, but that Columbia is representative of what's going on throughout the country as a whole. I think the N. Main streetscaping project was brought up because it's a project designed to uplift a somewhat depressed part of town in hard economic times, making it a bit unlikely that we'll see any immediate benefits to the streetscaping. At least the article did attempt to point out the positives, unlike a recent article in Business Week about Greensboro that also centered around a recently unemployed person now attending job fairs looking for a new job.

You're right. I'll freely admit to being overly sensitive to anything that comes off as undue criticism of SC. Obviously you can't hide from facts, but it seems like anytime something is going bad they media conglomerates say, "oh wow things are bad, lets go down and check on South Carolina."

[monsoon]

Where is your document on the subject? I would very much like to read it, if it has been published yet. I may not agree with everything the author wrote, but at least he took the time to share his perspective instead of simply tearing other people apart without sharing his insight.

Yet you posted it here without doing any of the same. You said that we should read it "for more information about to the economic situation" but you failed to tell us why it is relevant, meaningful or even why this person is qualified to even talk about it. So before you accuse others of trying to "tear it down" and then demanding they justify their posts, you need to do your homework and give us some reason(s) it's actually something more than just a another meaningless link post.

And honestly I am tired of your knee jerk reactions such as accusing someone of "tearing something down" if they happen to disagree with something you posted. This is a discussion forum. If you want to have a discussion then it can be done without these kinds of remarks.

[monsoon]

You're right. I'll freely admit to being overly sensitive to anything that comes off as undue criticism of SC. Obviously you can't hide from facts, but it seems like anytime something is going bad they media conglomerates say, "oh wow things are bad, lets go down and check on South Carolina."

So is it simply better the media doesn't report this kind of stuff, or are you saying that only certain media, such as The State can. but it's basically off limits of the NY Times. BTW, I find the NY Times to be one of the few well written papers left in the USA. I think that going down the road of blaming them for covering a story in the South, rather than focus on the facts of their story, which don't seem to be dispute, as not real productive. We could only wish the local papers here in the Carolinas still participated in this level of journalism, but sadly they don't.

[CorgiMatt]

7.2% unemployment is not good though, especially when you consider that it is steadily rising. We can sit here and spin words all day, hoping to convince people that things are actually much better in our cities than most places, but it is not going to change the fact that more and more people are out of work each month. I realize that tourism is a good source for instant job creation, but it is a very volatile industry when times are tough financially. As the economic outlook clearly indicates things will get worse this next year, putting too many eggs in the tourism and hospitality basket may not be wise for cities such as Columbia and Greenville. Places like Charleston, Asheville, and Myrtle Beach may not be as severely harmed by spending more for tourism, since that is one of their primary industries, but it is still being affected by less people having enough cash to visit and spend it there.

Read this document for more information about the economic situation.

If you read my posting carefully, I said 7.2% unemployment is bad. But actually Columbia's is 7%. Greenville's is 7.2%. My mistake. But both are bad.

[goodbye]

Yet you posted it here without doing any of the same. You said that we should read it "for more information about the economic situation" but you failed to tell us why it is relevant, meaningful or even why this person is qualified to even talk about it. So before you accuse others of trying to "tear it down" and then demanding they justify their posts, you need to do your homework and give us some reason(s) it's actually something more than just a another meaningless link post.

And honestly I am tired of your knee jerk reactions such as accusing someone of "tearing something down" if they happen to disagree with something you posted. This is a discussion forum. If you want to have a discussion then it can be done without these kinds of remarks.

My apology for offending you. The author, in my opinion, clearly has a bit of insight into the situation. Here is his bio, if you are interested. He even took time to include several statistical charts with factual data gathered over many years to support his case. I still would like to hear your take on the subject, with reasonable backing if you have the time. That is a sincere request, not out of spite. Edited December 23, 2008 by Skyliner

[Spartan]

So is it simply better the media doesn't report this kind of stuff, or are you saying that only certain media, such as The State can. but it's basically off limits of the NY Times. BTW, I find the NY Times to be one of the few well written papers left in the USA. I think that going down the road of blaming them for covering a story in the South, rather than focus on the facts of their story, which don't seem to be dispute, as not real productive. We could only wish the local papers here in the Carolinas still participated in this level of journalism, but sadly they don't.

You've made your opinion of the NY Times very clear. I don't care what they publish, and actually, it was published in The State too.

[CorgiMatt]

They've been saying for years that cities with major research universities would have a bright future, so at least the part of the article that talks about the knowledge economy is nothing new. It seems that after the recession, if our nation's leaders don't just fall back into the same way of doing things, research will be where the bulk of the new jobs will be. And there's no reason why Columbia, Charleston-North Charleston and GSA can't improve their current standing on the knowlege index chart from 12th, 22nd and 39th respectively, if our state's and cities' leaders seize the day.

[monsoon]

You've made your opinion of the NY Times very clear. I don't care what they publish, and actually, it was published in The State too.

Yes they did republish the NY Times article. It's one of the reasons that I have a slightly higher opinion of The State than the rest of SC's major newspapers. I do note that you originally thanked me for posting it.

[monsoon]

They've been saying for years that cities with major research universities would have a bright future, so at least the part of the article that talks about the knowledge economy is nothing new.

It's a buzz word. Knowledge is only economically valuable if you manage to do something productive with it for the people. Note that his chart lists Charlotte up rather high on this index, yet he fails to take any note that Charlotte is in dire straits today because it's two biggest knowledge companies are economic failures. Both got to where they are today by exploiting endless changes to financial laws they were behind, and now one has collapsed and is being taken over and the other is sucking up tens of billions of federal tax dollars to stay in business. Expectations are that just between these 2 companies, layoffs are going to be at least 75,000 and most likely more.

Where both banks failed and where the American economy in general has made the same mistakes and where this author does not seem to get it, is they don't understand that value to a society only comes from 3 sources. You dig it up, you grow it, or you manufacture it. You can have a knowledge economy but if it doesn't exist to improve these three things, then you are in trouble. Bob Lutz spelled it out exactly a couple of weeks ago. "You don't add value to an economy by writing stuff on paper and selling it back and forth". That is exactly what we have been doing. Over the last 25 years we declared war on the American worker and at the same time lionized CEO's, business executives and worshiped Wall Street. We have happily elected politicians who wage war on labor unions all while getting in bed with corporate executives. So in the process we have transferred trillions of dollars of wealth overseas because that is where stuff is produced now and we are left with basically nothing. We have been getting away with this because of a card game played over real estate prices. It was an illusion of wealth that never existed.

That perceived wealth based on ever appreciating property values supported by exotic and cheap credit has disappeared almost overnight because like a house of cards, it was unstable and a disaster waiting to happen. The people who have spent careers telling us it was all good are running for cover and using words like "liquidity crisis" to explain what happened. That is because they don't want to admit, or more likely don't understand the 3 basic ways to create value in an economy, Grow, dig or manufacture. It's like telling a The Pope that God doesn't exist.

The fact of the matter American business and government has sundered manufacturing, so now we are left with farming and mining. Compare this to a place like Japan where they view every manufacturing job in terms of their national defense and will do anything to dominate a market based on it. Farming and mining is a description of what you see in the 2nd and 3rd world, and that is where we are heading real fast. The fact that we don't have any problem hading over $2T+ to Wall Street, but are fighting tooth and nail to "loan" the big 3 just $18B is testimate to that. It might take another generation before we "get it" again, but where will be by then.

I realize this is going to fall on deaf ears of many here because we are still in a big state of denial that it is happening. This is especially evident amongst people who are less than 30 years old who really never have known anything else. Ironically they are going to spend the rest of their lives paying for it. Don't expect me to defend any of it when the naysayers show up, and they usually do. I will let the results speak for themselves. I will add however the most economically viable parts of SC for the average person, where the highest standard of living exists, are the ones that have the largest manufacturing bases (barring government). Go to the parts of the state where this doesn't exist and you will quickly see what I mean.

[CorgiMatt]

Examples of doing something with knowledge that is productive for the people would be manufacturing things with a fraction of the materials we use today through nanotechnology, and developing new treatments for illnesses through medical research, and packaging alternative energy to operate everyday gadgets. Companies developing these things clustered around the research that makes them possible, and the desire to improve the technology on a continual basis, should help. This type of research is going on in SC now, and if it doesn't succeed in the end, then to a large extent those who have prognosticated that masses of people will eventually migrate to the nation's largest urban centers as their last ray of hope only to end up living in the streets in squalor with other have-nots will surely have been right, because our days of making things here are over, unless we resort to protectionism and make our own goods and say the heck with the needs of peoples of other nations.

Edited December 23, 2008 by CorgiMatt

[Spartan]

I will add however the most economically viable parts of SC for the average person, where the highest standard of living exists, are the ones that have the largest manufacturing bases (barring government). Go to the parts of the state where this doesn't exist and you will quickly see what I mean.

True. We should be thankful that the majority of the state's population lives in these areas with higher standards of living.

[monsoon]

.... because our days of making things here are over, unless we resort to protectionism and make our own goods and say the heck with the needs of peoples of other nations.

Indeed. Every other nation on the planet does this, why shouldn't the USA? American workers will never be able to compete against $1/hour labor. They should not have to. The only reason it does now is because it makes certain individuals in this country extremely rich, but for the rest of us, it is garbage.

The USA defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan simultaneously because we were able to out manufacture them. The USA became a Superpower, surpassing "Old Europe" because of our manufacturing. In 1935 the British Empire spanned the globe and they had influence and riches that came from an economic engine that never completely saw the dark. In 1946 they were irrelevant because of USA manufacturing. The USA won the cold war against the Soviets simply because we could out manufacture them. This fact isn't lost on the Japanese, the Germans, Old Europe and more recently the Chinese but sadly present day Americans seem fairly clueless about it.

[GvilleSC]

No growing economy ever stays in one sector. Everyone knows that as economies mature, they move from manufacturing to service-based. To say that we should keep our manufacturing jobs simply because they are currently here, would do nothing but hold us back. You can't seriously hope that we'll retain manufacturing jobs over higher paying service jobs?

[monsoon]

.... You can't seriously hope that we'll retain manufacturing jobs over higher paying service jobs?

Are you kidding? Please describe a high paying service job..

[GvilleSC]

Are you kidding? Please describe a high paying service job..

I'm not talking about "high paying". Pay attention. It's higher paying. The workforce in the US is more educated than when manufacturing jobs of the 1940s were around. How about you tell the college graduates and those who hold Master degrees that they need to report to the mill tomorrow morning and start working for $8/hr. Otherwise they can use their education in the service sector, make higher wages on average, and do a job that is more glorious than manual labor. Bend your mind a little bit.

Edited December 23, 2008 by GvilleSC

[Captain Worley]

Farming and mining is a description of what you see in the 2nd and 3rd world, and that is where we are heading real fast. The fact that we don't have any problem hading over $2T+ to Wall Street, but are fighting tooth and nail to "loan" the big 3 just $18B is testimate to that.

100% agree. The auto loans are a good step, but they should have let the banks swing.

Are you kidding? Please describe a high paying service job..

HAHA! Exact same thing I thought wen reading it.

[GvilleSC]

Maybe a refresher is needed that banking, advertising, PR, architecture, engineering, research, medical fields, and call centers among others are all service jobs.

Maybe there's a generational gap in terms of what was taught in school. Reviews some business classes offered today.

Edited December 23, 2008 by GvilleSC