West

[dmccall]

I used to live in the Cameron Village condos across from the loading docks at (what was) Eckerd's and COULD NOT believe how loud the train was from there. I remember one time this conductor just sat on the horn all the way through downtown at 2:00am on a Monday night. Late, long whistles were a fairly common occurrence, and after 3 years, I never got used to it.

[DPK]

I think it really depends on the person and how long they are exposed to something. I went to a college where for three years my dorm was right next to an active rail line; the rail cut the campus in two halves. Bells, whistles, clatter, and all I got used to it after a while to the point where I couldn't notice it. The only time I ever did was when I visibly saw the train.

However bear in mind that I pretty much was next to the rail 24/7 between the times where I had to venture out to class, clubs, bars, etc, it was all within walking distance to my dorm and therefore still near the rails. So it's no shocker that eventually it becomes ambient noise. When I went home home during the summers it took some getting used to for sleep because I was adjusted to the rail.

Someone who works during the day and is only home here/there for sleep at the end of they day might never fully get used to the noise. I use the word noise, but I actually enjoy the sound of trains and whistles, etc so it's hardly noise to me. I'm a big rail junkie.

It annoys me when people move somewhere and then complain about it. I hope they lose their petition. Rail is what made Raleigh partly what it is today and adds character to downtown.

[Jones_]

I am a big fan of the romantic charm of trains. I lived in Sullivan Hall at State and was so used to the train waking me just a little at night that one night when it did not come, I woke up right on schedule and wondered why it was not there. It all comes downtown to what you like. I am guessing these people maybe really don't like "living in the center of glenwood south", realize they don't "live where they live", or are otherwise kicking themselves for caving into the other catchy sales slogans West used to reel them in.....

"excuse me for living"

[orulz]

I lived in Sullivan facing the tracks too. That's nothing like what happens at West. The only time trains blow their horns going through NCSU is when there's a tresspasser walking along the tracks. That is maybe a couple times a month, if that, and seldom at night. The closest grade crossing (Royal Street) is about a mile away. The rumble of trains going by is not that big of a deal. To give you an idea, I live on a collector street. A train rolling by Sullivan in the middle of the night was no more disruptive than when a Semi rolls down my street in the middle of the night (which does happen on occasion).

The horns ARE a big deal. Imagine if that semi had to lay on the horn the entire way down the street. And train horns are LOUDER than truck horns, actually. There are three grade crossings near West, and every time a train crosses any one of those crossings, the engineer is required by law to a "LONG-LONG-short-LONG" horn blast. West-Harrington, the two closest crossings to West, are probably so close together that the slow moving trains probably have to lay on the horn continuously through both crossings, then again at Jones. It probably takes a train about a minute to traverse all three crossings. So that's 60 seconds of concentrated 110db train horn noise, up to several times a night.

I really don't see what you people have against the quiet zone idea. In fact, I can't fathom any negatives to it at all. Seems the only argument you have is "Ha! They should have known! Screw 'em! Serves 'em right for moving to Glenwood South!" and I dont' think I need to point out how ridiculous that is. The truth is, this quiet zone could increase the draw for residecnes in the immediately surrounding blocks quite a bit. We want more people to move downtown, right? Well, the train horns are a major annoyance that might convince somebody to go for something out in the burbs instead. FYI, there's nothing wrong with moving somewhere, and then trying to change your surroundings for the better.

[ChiefJoJo]

I really don't see what you people have against the quiet zone idea. In fact, I can't fathom any negatives to it at all.

Obviously there's the additional cost of the city having to provide the crossing equipment for the at-grade crossings, and this is just before SEHSR may come along and close a few of the very same crossings, rendering the areas quiet anyway. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that the railroads relinquish all liability to the city when a crash occurs at a 'quiet zone' crossing. For all these reasons, I don't see the city stepping up to do this, especially in this economy where cash isn't laying around in bags.

BTW, I hear the trains all the time. It's annoying still after several years, but it's not a big deal. I suspect the residents in West are getting used to a new location, and after a while, they will get used to it like I did.

That's not to say I think quiet zones are a bad idea. I think it stands to reason that other cities in the state are looking into this. Urban areas are becoming more popular living places and cities should do all they can to make these neighborhoods more attractive to prospective buyers. I just don't think it will happen, although like I said, with some form of SEHSR projects coming through fairly soon (my guess), many of these issues will go away when the at-grade crossings do.

[Jones_]

The horn is definitely a lot louder than a truck but having stood right next to it many times, I still don't mind it. Part of the appeal of high-rise living is to be above the street noise. I know the train is easily heard even 10-15 stories up, but am still thinking its not that bad, and we are hearing from those most easily annoyed. I also prefer not to see changes to the street grid there are enough connectivity problems in our downtown.

[RaleighRob]

I remember one time this conductor just sat on the horn all the way through downtown at 2:00am on a Monday night.

OK, all kidding aside, I will grant that this is indeed ridiculous when it happens. If the West folks were complaining about the occasional "Toot", I'll continue to laugh. But if their grievance is the "sitting on the horn thru town" basis, then Yes they've got a fair complaint. Urban, suburban or rural, that type of horn blowing should be set for emergency purposes Only.

[mikebeatty]

I really don't see what you people have against the quiet zone idea. In fact, I can't fathom any negatives to it at all. Seems the only argument you have is "Ha! They should have known! Screw 'em! Serves 'em right for moving to Glenwood South!" and I dont' think I need to point out how ridiculous that is. The truth is, this quiet zone could increase the draw for residecnes in the immediately surrounding blocks quite a bit. We want more people to move downtown, right? Well, the train horns are a major annoyance that might convince somebody to go for something out in the burbs instead. FYI, there's nothing wrong with moving somewhere, and then trying to change your surroundings for the better.

I know that when I moved downtown, I paid attention to where the train tracks were. And the fire station. And I made sure I didn't live above the garage door. How can anyone not think that train tracks right next to the building might be an issue? Did the purchaser ask the sales agent? A quiet zone would be nice -- how far will it extend? Out to Boylan Heights? Up to 440? Who will define the zone?

If the suggested cost of the new crossing that would be part of the quiet zone is in the 300-400k range, perhaps the developers of these projects would pay for it? Might even help them sell a few condos ;-).

MikeB

[miamiblue]

Quite honestly, I think the city would be taking on a big liability in this area with quiet at-grade crossings (if the railroad in fact relinquishes liability to them in quiet zones), especially on West and on Jones. Either way, someone would be taking on a huge liability.

There is a ton of pedestrian traffic in this area, much of it occurring at night and the pedestrians have often been drinking. Since I live about a block away from the Jones crossing and frequent that area on foot quite often, I have witnessed drunken pedestrians doing stupid things near the tracks, even when the barricades are down and the lights are flashing. Pedestrians often don't stop crossing until they either see the light on the train down the tracks or hear the horn. Unless a wall comes up around the entire crossing with a quiet zone barrier, I can definitely see a big risk for not having an audible warning. This is especially true at the Jones crossing, which is flanked by several bars and restaurants.

I am not completely opposed to maybe the Harrington crossing being made quiet, since pedestrian traffic is lighter there, and having the West and Harrington crossings so close to each other might make for some long horn blows now and then. I have noticed that the actual volume and length of the sound varies considerably based on the engineer, but I would say that a full 60 seconds of horn at a time is an unlikely occurrence. The actual final rule on the sounding of horns is summarized (italics added):

Effective June 24, 2005, the Final Rule requires that locomotive horns be sounded at all public grade crossings 15-20 seconds before entering a crossing, but not more than one-quarter mile in advance [when travelling at speeds >60 mph]. The pattern for blowing the horn remains two long, one short, and one long sounding to be repeated as necessary until the locomotive [occupies] the crossing. Locomotive engineers will retain the authority to vary this pattern as necessary for crossings in close proximity and will be allowed to sound the horn in emergency situations. The Final Rule preempts any state or local laws regarding the use of the train horn at public crossings.

Full regulation can be found here. It actually states that "the locomotive horn shall begin to be sounded at least 15 seconds, but no more than 20 seconds, before the locomotive enters the crossing". I would think that once a locomotive enters the West crossing, it does not take much more than 20 seconds for it to enter Harrington.

I'm not trying to harp on people who really can't handle the sound, but I still think it should have been the developer's responsibility to try to reduce the noise intrusion for these buildings, knowing that they would be located in this area (and yeah, a level of responsibility still lies with the buyers). If not that, then the developers should have had to chip in for converting the crossings to quiet zones, instead of using taxpayer money to do this. I'm usually all for making improvements for the public good, but this is the same argument as the one we often use against sprawl - the developer should have to pay for infrastructure if they want to build where the current infrastructure is not sufficient. Just my opinion.

I personally would really miss the sound of the horns, and I live on the ground floor just about 500 ft from the Jones crossing (as the crow flies) and basically in-line with where the horns are blown when trains come from the south.

[Euphorius]

I was looking on the Wake County tax records last night and noticed that there are over 120 units at West that are still in teh developers name. I can't believe that it has been open for this long and they still have that many units on their books. I did notice that someone paid $294,000 for a 754 sq. ft. unit. That seems exorbitant to me. This mess with the trains can't be helping them sell units. If the condos themselves are so pricey I can't help but think that the retail space will be way overpriced as well. I think the retail spaces will be sitting empty for a long time.

[RALNATIVE]

I was looking on the Wake County tax records last night and noticed that there are over 120 units at West that are still in teh developers name. I can't believe that it has been open for this long and they still have that many units on their books. I did notice that someone paid $294,000 for a 754 sq. ft. unit. That seems exorbitant to me. This mess with the trains can't be helping them sell units. If the condos themselves are so pricey I can't help but think that the retail space will be way overpriced as well. I think the retail spaces will be sitting empty for a long time.

It's only a matter of time before this part of Glenwood South takes off. I think that the economy has stalled alot of the development and purchasing of the retails, but I see this improving by years end. Once things do get back on track, the units at West will see some of the highest appreciation in the area.

[Gard]

^

I agree. Consumer credit right now is a major choking point, hence the lack of sales, which further discourages retailers from opening stores because there are not enough people to support them. Once the credit crunch is done with, I expect that we will see the area continue where it left off.

[Jones_]

Disagree. The units are over 300/sqft which this market barely supported when times were good. Salaries will need to go up before these appreciate at all.

[Euphorius]

Disagree. The units are over 300/sqft which this market barely supported when times were good. Salaries will need to go up before these appreciate at all.

Exactly! 389 dollars per sq. ft. is insanely overpriced. At that price those units better come with a live in maid.

[dmccall]

This is an extremely reasonable price for high-rise, urban living in new construction in America. There are plenty of new ITB houses that went for $400+/sq foot before "the worst economy since the Great Depression". I think some of you are ignoring the white elephant...!

[Jones_]

This is an extremely reasonable price for high-rise, urban living in new construction in America. There are plenty of new ITB houses that went for $400+/sq foot before "the worst economy since the Great Depression". I think some of you are ignoring the white elephant...!

Show me some that were that much. Big and small, 5-points never even got that high. I think I saw the one behind Bloomsbury Bistro at 1800 sqft go for like 450,000. No neighborhood outpaced 5-points that I know of and I carved this city up and down for two years looking for a place...

[Euphorius]

This is an extremely reasonable price for high-rise, urban living in new construction in America. There are plenty of new ITB houses that went for $400+/sq foot before "the worst economy since the Great Depression". I think some of you are ignoring the white elephant...!

I seem to be able to find lots of listings in urban Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, and Houston for much cheaper than units at West in buildings with way more amenities than West. Developers need to realize that there is a small market for units that expensive here. IMHO said market is oversaturated in Downtown Raleigh.

[JT698]

This is an extremely reasonable price for high-rise, urban living in new construction in America. There are plenty of new ITB houses that went for $400+/sq foot before "the worst economy since the Great Depression". I think some of you are ignoring the white elephant...!

While the ITB houses are definitely that much and more, I do not think the condos are near what they should be. I've been in San Francisco about 3 times for prolonged periods. There are numerous condos (even in the city) in the $400Ks of similar size. San Jose condos are in the $300Ks. San Jose is more Raleigh sized, but to say that $300+ sq/ft is ok for Raleigh ignores the really large metros that have way more to do and are similar in price even with more demand.

[ChiefJoJo]

While the ITB houses are definitely that much and more, I do not think the condos are near what they should be. I've been in San Francisco about 3 times for prolonged periods. There are numerous condos (even in the city) in the $400Ks of similar size. San Jose condos are in the $300Ks. San Jose is more Raleigh sized, but to say that $300+ sq/ft is ok for Raleigh ignores the really large metros that have way more to do and are similar in price even with more demand.

I agree with the basics of your argument, but for an accurate assessment you'd have to look further into the relative compositions of urban/downtown housing in each city as compared to the availability of that type of housing in that market. SF is the 2nd most dense metro area in the nation, and it clearly has a very large market for urban housing close to the core. Raleigh isn't in the same stratosphere as SF as far as employment, amenities, etc, but until recently, it lacked any semblance of urban housing stock, which led to the building boom of the past few years as developers raced to catch up with pent up demand. It's hard to judge relative demand without mountains of data, but I would think Raleigh's was very much under served compared to other communities. Following the real estate collapse, we may have reached a point of temporary market saturation for urban housing in Downtown Raleigh, where the demand is restricted from pre-collapse credit levels to a point where only the cream of the crop can qualify for a construction loan, mortgage, etc.

Also, to some extent, new vertical concrete/steel construction has a minimum threshold of fixed cost ($200/sf?) that keeps prices high whether you are in Raleigh or Seattle. Obviously land prices have risen in recent years, perhaps a bit too high due to speculation, driving up the prices a bit further. However, given Raleigh's recent 'entry' into the urban housing market relative to other communities, and the wildly turbulent nature of the last 12-18 months, I think it's too early to tell whether the prices are overly inflated at this point.

[NCpride]

I think the recession, and especially the real estate bubble has left a permanent scar on that industry. In my opinion, even when credit markets loosen up we won't see the no-holds-bar pace of development that defined the last decade.

With regard to Downtown Raleigh, I think it will continue to grow and prosper, but I've reset my expectations. The pace of growth is going to be much flatter than I once thought before the recession hit, and took all our momentum away. This is mostly due to the type of developments that have recently been built and the ones that are on the drawing board.

We would be in a much better position to rebound right now if we had built more apartments and condos geared towards the middle class, as opposed to luxury condos that are half empty and going for exorbitant prices.

Downtown Raleigh needs critical mass before it really takes off and starts to grow exponentially. But how is that ever going to happen when most developments are only catering to such a narrow segment of the population?

Sure, condos at the West will be worth $390/sq ft one day. But I think that is a long, long way off at this rate. It might be a nice place to live, but it

[Jones_]

We would be in a much better position to rebound right now if we had built more apartments and condos geared towards the middle class, as opposed to luxury condos that are half empty and going for exorbitant prices.

This is exactly correct. Aiming for the top bracket all the time, and building spec for any income bracket is a recipe for bubble's and ensuing collapses.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Is one of the reason for the very high prices because the developer is building the condo's from the ground up? Where as most cities are renovating older structures and turning them into condos?

[Euphorius]

Good news for West. Looks as if some of the retail space is about to be taken off the market. There are two new clubs opening up shop there. One is called Still Life. Their facebook fan page is here. The other is from the owners of Cashmere and will be called The Venetian. Supposedly they will have indoor waterfalls, a VIP lounge, and a large outdoor space.

[Jones_]

Good news for West. Looks as if some of the retail space is about to be taken off the market. There are two new clubs opening up shop there. One is called Still Life. Their facebook fan page is here. The other is from the owners of Cashmere and will be called The Venetian. Supposedly they will have indoor waterfalls, a VIP lounge, and a large outdoor space.

I wonder where the outdoor space will go or how it will be situated. Well, since I am wondering things, I wonder where they plan to find even more high end VIP types beyond what downtown is already barely supporting. I also wonder how the condo residents feel about a nightclub beneath them or they get any say in what goes there. I suppose that depends on hos many votes the developer still has in the HOA board.

[RALNATIVE]

I wonder where the outdoor space will go or how it will be situated. Well, since I am wondering things, I wonder where they plan to find even more high end VIP types beyond what downtown is already barely supporting. I also wonder how the condo residents feel about a nightclub beneath them or they get any say in what goes there. I suppose that depends on hos many votes the developer still has in the HOA board.

A bar/lounge type space like the Burrough at the Dawson would be more appropriate for that bldg's retail space.