Virginia Beach Light Rail and Transit

[urbanlife]

2-3 years is very typical for these projects...it might only take 11-14 months for the construction of the lines, but the construction of the stops and all the needed signage and repaintings that is needed add in time...plus the other thing that takes about 3 months once all of that is done is the testing of the lines and the cars, which this being a new line, there will be alot more testing needed...So 2 years will be very progressive and fast moving, 3 years will be very conservative and issues that may arise.

Also, the city is talking about elevated tracks through the town center, which is added construction to both the rail lines and the rail stops, which will slow the process down even more.

I know you guys want this to happen yesterday, but you have to be realistic with the numbers when it comes to these kinds of projects...I know how long these things take, I have seen a few light rail and street car projects happen already and have a good understanding of the construction process that go into them.

[varider]

2-3 years is very typical for these projects...it might only take 11-14 months for the construction of the lines, but the construction of the stops and all the needed signage and repaintings that is needed add in time...plus the other thing that takes about 3 months once all of that is done is the testing of the lines and the cars, which this being a new line, there will be alot more testing needed...So 2 years will be very progressive and fast moving, 3 years will be very conservative and issues that may arise.

Also, the city is talking about elevated tracks through the town center, which is added construction to both the rail lines and the rail stops, which will slow the process down even more.

I know you guys want this to happen yesterday, but you have to be realistic with the numbers when it comes to these kinds of projects...I know how long these things take, I have seen a few light rail and street car projects happen already and have a good understanding of the construction process that go into them.

Oh no I'm not doubting your knowledge of urban rail projects seeing as you reside in a city with multiple rail lines. I know it takes a long time from watching Norfolk. But it's not realistic to say they can go Newtown to TC in a year or less? It's like 2 miles. That's 6months a mile.

[urbanlife]

Oh no I'm not doubting your knowledge of urban rail projects seeing as you reside in a city with multiple rail lines. I know it takes a long time from watching Norfolk. But it's not realistic to say they can go Newtown to TC in a year or less? It's like 2 miles. That's 6months a mile.

2 miles, 1 year if it was all flat, but considering a section of this will have to be raised to handle running through VB's downtown, you would be looking at a 1.5 years for construction of the line. Then during this process, there will be the construction of about 3 stops (guessing) which one of them will have to be a raised stop, so the city will have to construct an actual elevated platform station, much like the Skytrain in Vancouver, BC, with this, construction time would overlap the construction of the tracks and be about 9 months to a year to do.

So with those two things, it will take about 1.5 years for heavy construction...then comes about 6 months of testing and adding the smaller details such as kiosks, lighting, seating, signage, and other needed designs.

2 years isnt a long time to construct a light rail project...think of it this way, with all the regulations and checks that is needed to construct a building, it is common to take 2 years to construct an average size tower...light rail is no different.

2 years minimum from when they start construction...which I dont even think this is fully approved yet...there still would be the waiting for construction materials to be ordered and delivered to the site. Again, nothing wrong with 2 years, I wouldnt be surprised to see this almost, if not fully completed by 2012...by the time Obama starts his second term, light rail will be a common thing running around VB and the two cities will already be talking about new lines through the metro.

[urbanfan]

Hey what do you guys think about getting funding to build from Newtown to the Oceanfront, but doing it in two phases. Newtown to TC, open that section, then TC to the Oceanfront. So we don't have to wait forever to go from downtown to TC and we can get started on TOD

The feds require a lengthy analysis of transportation options and environmental impacts and ridership estimates. It is not cost effective to do this once and then do it again for another segment. The construction of the line is nothing compared to the studies and the impact studies that are required. There is no way to speed it up. If we want federal money, you have to play by the rules. Splitting it up is just not cost effective and in the long run would cost much more money than needs to be spent.

[orulz]

Without federal involvement, I suspect the first phase could be built very quickly. If VB doesn't apply for New Starts funds, they could get by without following the lengthy New Starts process and without the requirement of a full NEPA EIS. The state of Virginia may have its own requirements if state funds are to be used, so that could slow it down again, but the process could proceed very quicklyf if all the funds for the first phase are local.

In that case, the full process would have to be followed for the second phase where the feds are involved, but it gets the light rail extended to TC very quickly.

Problem is, most cities don't have money coming out of their ears for transit projects. It helps a lot to get that federal and state money in order to get more leverage out of the local contribution; many new starts projects have approximately a 3:1 ratio of federal/state to local funding.

However, I believe that the new Surface Transportation Act has a provision that would change this. It would allow for lines built without federal funds to serve as a local match to leverage more federal funds for later phases / lines. This is being done specifically with Houston in mind (they built their first line with local money) but the provision could be leveraged by VB as well. For example, if phase 1 and 2 cost $400 million each, and state/local funds cover 100% of phase 1 construction, then potentially federal funds could be used for 100% of phase 2 construction and still put the project on equal footing with any other project that asks for a 50% federal share.

The house wants to deal with the transportation bill by the end of this year, but the senate wants to punt until 18 months from now, well after the 2010 elections. VB could start construction with a design/build contract right now anyway, but then, the risk would be that this provision gets cut from the final bill that is adopted and VB winds up burning lots of local money for zero federal leverage in the end. If we could be certain that both houses would consider the bill by the end of 2009, then waiting to see the outcome would be reasonable, but if this winds up taking 18 months as the Senate wants, then waiting to see if the bill passes intact would be a pointless exercise, since the New Starts and NEPA processes could be well underway by then anyway.

[varider]

After all that talk,

I'd say it's best for the city to take their time, go through the New Starts Process, get funding from the Commonwealth and the Nation, pay as little as possible, and build this needed project. Anybody that has ridden mass transit in HR knows that the # 20 (bus route from downtown to the oceanfront) is overcrowded all day long. The trains will surely be standing room only once extended to the oceanfront.

[varider]

FAQs about the Virginia Beach Transit Extension Study (VBTES)

http://www.gohrt.com/vbtes/documents/faq.pdf

Edit:

I'd like to post this from the Charlotte thread. It's a pdf of there BLE (Blue line extension). They are pretty much on the EXACT same schedule we are here in HR. Their DEIS is underway and our SDEIS is underway and supposed to be done next summer. Basically, we will probably be building our extensions at the same time. Their timeframe is:

DEIS Complete: Summer 2010

Prelim. Engineering Complete: Spring 2011

Record of Decision (ROD): Spring 2011

Full Funding Grant Agreement (FFGA): Summer 2012

Final Design Complete: Fall 2012

Construction begins: Late 2012

Revenue Service:Fall 2016

Now obviously we aren't goig to follow this exactly, but it's good to have somebody in our position @ the same time. 2016 sounds kind of late, I've heard estimates of 2013-2014 for us though.

Edited October 3, 2009 by varider

[varider]

Dang.. The VBTA won't give up.

A resident's effort to put the question of light rail out to referendum in 2010 has some City Council members scrambling to keep it off the ballot - at least for now.

Wally Erb, a 64-year-old defense contractor and blogger, has filed paperwork in Circuit Court to start the referendum process, which requires gathering thousands of signatures.

"I want to promote a dialogue in Virginia Beach to make sure the desires of residents are really known," said Erb, who ran unsuccessfully for City Council in 2000 and Circuit Court clerk in 2003. "There's not enough discussion to find out what folks really want."

No way this guy is succesful in putting light rail to referendum. Who would sign that other than his VBTA friends? A normal Virgina Beach citizen would be like "no way dude, get out of my face with that paper."

[HarryVB]

Yeah well his old ass wont know what the future will hold anyways.. He will croak. He is noone special just another defense contractor in the area.. drop dead already. And you really think the young generation will vote for a referendum.. Nooo.. We want Mass Transit for our region. Too boost up development, give us better high paying jobs, better source of transportation and the list goes on. .. So why dont you drop dead fred!..

[admcarl]

I must agree, we don't want this going to referendum, yeah the Mayor said in his campaign that he will have it, but he realized it wasn't a good idea any more. He already apologized for saying he will have one and then turn around and decide not to have one. I have to agree with him and everyone else here that we don't want it to go to referendum, it will only slow the process and if the results don't come out the right way, I'm sure City Council will just override it anyway. Light rail is needed and wanted, lets just keep it moving forward. It is something to get excited about, especially since we just saw the cars get delivered back on Tuesday, this means it's happening for Norfolk, lets keep it moving to VABeach. It will be great.

[urbanlife]

if the town center had to go through referendum, there wouldnt be a town center or a future downtown for the city. Something like LRT needs to be pushed through the area without a public vote...if they want to make a public vote, then everyone that wants to vote needs to visit a city that has LRT, then they can make a true choice on if they should vote for or against it.

I am betting anyone that is against it has not traveled to any city in this country that now has it.

[admcarl]

Agreed. Anyone who has been to DC or NYC or anywhere with LTR or Metro/Subway will realize how efficent they are and what a good thing it will be for VB. Like you said, anyone who doesn't want it, for some reason don't know what it will do for us. Has anyone even heard what their reasons are for not wanting it besides bring rif-raf from Norfolk and Taxes?

[varider]

I'm really not too worried about a referendum being held. In '99 when light rail lost 55-45, Meyera Orbendorf was mayor and the Beach just gave up. his time around things are different with Town Center, downtown Norfolk being so great, the Strategic Growth Area's, oh and WILL SESSOMS! I think the city would vote in favor of LR, but even if they didn't, a referendum is non- binding. The city would disregard their thoughts and proceed with LR.

[HarryVB]

See the problem today is the Baby Boomers. They live in the past about racisim and hatred about low income people. There are good and bad low income people. and most of the people blame it on the black people which is not right. The city needs to get over the racis issue about lightrail.. Bringing the riffraff from norfolk to the beach.. Norfolk is becoming a nice city. Its being cleaned up and new buildings are going up everywhere.. Look at Town Center. we have our own downtown area that we can all enjoy a nice dinner/lunch, a broadway show, comedy shows. Beautiful dwellings to live and Class A office space to work in.. We need lightrail so we can become more diverse with transportation options. Boom TOD development along and around the norfolk southern corridor and watch Virginia Beach Downtown Bustle with life and success.. Bring the TIDE to the beach!!. We need it!.. Just imagine all the holidays that come every year and having lightrail. It would take most of the traffic off the road. People could board and unboard at the convention center and walk down the new 19th street corridor. Enjoying the nice restraunts/shops and arriving at the Entertainment Complex at the old dome site for more entertainment..

[varider]

The average middle aged Virginia Beach resident doesn't think like we urban folk do. We see transportation alternatives, transit oriented development, cleaner environment, smart growth, etc. People like the old guy trying to create a petition and his fellow VBTA friends see high taxes, blacks in their superior city, and crime in their suburban neighborhoods. It's real ignorant.

The youth are the future of Va Beach (myself included). Why do you think no young people are members of the VBTA? I know every single friend of mine that I have talked to (high school) is so excited for light rail to go to the Beach. I really don't care what the naysayers think. Nothing is going to stop the Tide from being expanded.

[urbanfan]

The average middle aged Virginia Beach resident doesn't think like we urban folk do. We see transportation alternatives, transit oriented development, cleaner environment, smart growth, etc. People like the old guy trying to create a petition and his fellow VBTA friends see high taxes, blacks in their superior city, and crime in their suburban neighborhoods. It's real ignorant.

The youth are the future of Va Beach (myself included). Why do you think no young people are members of the VBTA? I know every single friend of mine that I have talked to (high school) is so excited for light rail to go to the Beach. I really don't care what the naysayers think. Nothing is going to stop the Tide from being expanded.

First of all, let's not dope on people you don't personally know. Please stop generalizing and making comments about people. I am very supportive of transit options, however, with that said, transit is HEAVILY subsidized and should not be something that is gone into lightly. We're talking about our money going to this thing. The more money that is taken from me means the less money that I have to help with charities and local non-profit organizations (which I think is much more noble than a choo-choo to the beach.) That doesn't mean that I don't support light rail, it just means that it comes at a cost and not one that should be entered into lightly. Just because someone does not support light rail does not mean that they are automatically racist and backwards thinking. Instead of bashing them why not discuss the issue with people. I think you will find that most are not as backwards thinking as you believe. And please don't reference someone you know as reference to back you up. That is just taking what someone said and making a generalization that does not apply to a group as a whole. Let's be constructive and not destructive.

[HarryVB]

Why dont you get off your high Horse and do your research Urbanlife.. The newstarts program is what will pay for the lightrail nimwad!. The goverment is paying for this system. Do you not recall the bill that was passed by General assembly in 2008?.. Hello.. Richmond already spent 20million for va beach to buy the right away for lightrail because its now a law to build it.. Because of the high gas prices and they want hampton roads to go green.. Better transportation options, more development.. before you start putting you two sense into anything,. do your research or you will just look ignorant.

Edited October 9, 2009 by HarryVB

[urbanlife]

Why dont you get off your high Horse and do your research Urbanlife.. The newstarts program is what will pay for the lightrail nimwad!. The goverment is paying for this system. Do you not recall the bill that was passed by General assembly in 2008?.. Hello.. Richmond already spent 20million for va beach to buy the right away for lightrail because its now a law to build it.. Because of the high gas prices and they want hampton roads to go green.. Better transportation options, more development.. before you start putting you two sense into anything,. do your research or you will just look ignorant.

What the hell are you talking about??? My last post was about the fact that the city council should avoid a vote for light rail because it makes no sense to have and would have a possibility of being shot down by people who have never been to cities that have light rail...nothing in my last post was about how light rail would be paid for, which I am well aware of the government subsidies that are paying for light rail projects in this country....I do live in Portland and we have seen alot of that money over the years and I am very well aware where it is coming from.

So I suggest that before you come out of the gate swinging, you should start addressing topics in a much more adult fashion to prevent yourself from sounding like an ignorant ass...and yes, I am taking an offense to this post.

[urbanfan]

Why dont you get off your high Horse and do your research Urbanlife.. The newstarts program is what will pay for the lightrail nimwad!. The goverment is paying for this system. Do you not recall the bill that was passed by General assembly in 2008?.. Hello.. Richmond already spent 20million for va beach to buy the right away for lightrail because its now a law to build it.. Because of the high gas prices and they want hampton roads to go green.. Better transportation options, more development.. before you start putting you two sense into anything,. do your research or you will just look ignorant.

First of all, respond to the right person. Secondly, can we not discuss things without resorting to name calling? Really? (Nimwad)? For your information, I know exactly the process the this stuff takes as I work on it on a daily basis. So please don't assume that you know me. The federal government is paying for this, and exactly where do you think the federal government is getting the money to pay for it. Last I checked they are not a business and collect taxes from "US" the average Joe who ends up paying for these things, either through higher taxes now or down the road when the subsidies to run these systems come to bear. Where do you think the 20 million came from from the state. Last I checked they are not a business and rely on taxes from you and I the "average US citizen". Please don't talk about this anymore if you can't talk in a civil tone and with some wisdom about where the money is coming from. I will be more than happy to discuss this, and please keep in mind that I am for the system. I am just against people lashing out at those who are not for it just because they want to lump them all into the same racebating and uneducated people. Last I checked I have plenty of education and higher level degrees to back it up. So please treat me with some respect.

[mistermetaj]

First of all, let's not dope on people you don't personally know. Please stop generalizing and making comments about people. I am very supportive of transit options, however, with that said, transit is HEAVILY subsidized and should not be something that is gone into lightly. We're talking about our money going to this thing. The more money that is taken from me means the less money that I have to help with charities and local non-profit organizations (which I think is much more noble than a choo-choo to the beach.) That doesn't mean that I don't support light rail, it just means that it comes at a cost and not one that should be entered into lightly. Just because someone does not support light rail does not mean that they are automatically racist and backwards thinking. Instead of bashing them why not discuss the issue with people. I think you will find that most are not as backwards thinking as you believe. And please don't reference someone you know as reference to back you up. That is just taking what someone said and making a generalization that does not apply to a group as a whole. Let's be constructive and not destructive.

Your comment of "a choo-choo to the beach" is typically sarcastic language most people use who are against lightrail, so I can see why some people may think you are against it. From MY experience and I imagine Varider's experience, etc, there are a plethora of residents at the beach who are against the idea of urbanism for racist reasons, NIMBYism, etc. I wouldn't think it is far fetched to make that generalization about a large majority of the retired generation or young wealthy generation in the area who are starkly opposed to lightrail and connecting to Norfolk. From MY experience, most people are not concerned with where their taxes are being used or even aware they are being used, especially when federal funding is involved. The main reason is, they are losing this money anyway, it might as well be reinvested back in their own city.

I agree a dialogue never hurt between two opposing groups, but a referrendum is not the way to go. If the perceived majority wins (those against LR) even by the slightest margin, it sets back progress for the city. Unfortunately, even the majority isn't looking into the best interest of the city now or in the future. Our representative republic was created for the sake of giving a voice to the minority, especially a strong minority (those supporting LR) and a referrendum ruins that.

[varider]

First of all, let's not dope on people you don't personally know. Please stop generalizing and making comments about people. I am very supportive of transit options, however, with that said, transit is HEAVILY subsidized and should not be something that is gone into lightly. We're talking about our money going to this thing. The more money that is taken from me means the less money that I have to help with charities and local non-profit organizations (which I think is much more noble than a choo-choo to the beach.) That doesn't mean that I don't support light rail, it just means that it comes at a cost and not one that should be entered into lightly. Just because someone does not support light rail does not mean that they are automatically racist and backwards thinking. Instead of bashing them why not discuss the issue with people. I think you will find that most are not as backwards thinking as you believe. And please don't reference someone you know as reference to back you up. That is just taking what someone said and making a generalization that does not apply to a group as a whole. Let's be constructive and not destructive.

I tell it as I see it.

So your telling me LR is going to take away your ability to donate to charities? That's... umm... bull?

I speak for the youth on this forum. As far as I know, I'm the only one. I may have a different viewpoint on things than a taxpaying adult.

The problem is rooted deeper than taxes. It's predjudices, fear of change, and general ignorances. That's just MY opinion.

[vdogg]

Lets try to bring this discussion back into focus and dispense with the name calling folks. We can disagree and still treat others with respect. This is a good discussion and I really don't want to start deleting posts but if it goes too far off the rails (no pun intended) I will.

[cpeakesqr]

Wow. How did I miss this thread? High horses and nimwads.

So... VA Beach light rail would be awesome. Referendums are bad.

[mlsimons]

Let me say a few things.

I spoke with a comprehensive city planner in the 757 last spring (she was also my urban planning instructor)... in our private conversation she said something I already knew but found surprising to hear from a city planner, she said "light rail opposition in VB isn't about taxes, its about race" (and no she is not black in case anyone is wondering). I have to say that I completely understand the sediment, and the fear of folks making that statement as well. But from my experience everyone one in VB who I have engaged in conversation with who opposes light rail has either mentioned poor blacks or simply "poor people who can't drive" coming into the city and bringing down real estate values. I attribute this to a much older racist sediment. I agree with VArider in the fact that every young person I have talked with seems to support light rail, also everyone who's from major metro regions, and most of my instructors in college.

There are lots of socio-demographic generalizations we can make about the different types of people who support or oppose light rail. But if you put all that aside, let me remind folks of recent Bills TEA-21 (Transportation Equity Act for the 21 century) and SAFETEA-LU (Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users).

TEA-21

The transportation equity act requires that seven planning factors be included in regional transportation plans: the plans must:

1.support the economic vitality of the metropolitan planning area;, especially by enabling global competitiveness, productivity and efficiency

2.increase the safety and security for the transportation system for motorized and non-motorized users

3.increase the accessibility and mobility options available to people and for freight

4.protect and enhance the environment promote energy conservation and improve the quality of life,

5.enhance the integration of connectivity of the transportation system, across and between modes, for people and freight,

6.promote efficient system management and operation,

7.emphasize the efficient preservation of existing transportation system.

SAFETEA-LU

The bill was the most important transportation-spending initiative of its time in the United States. Though often touted as a "highway bill", it was also the primary source of funding for other modes of surface transportation, including transit. Notably, the bill included funding for the New Starts program, which among other things helped to fund most of the new rail transit systems that opened in the United States during this time period, as well as extensions to existing systems.

I mention these bills because they remind us of various goals which are best achieved from compact, efficient Transit infrastructure...which the nation has clearly passed legislation to support in recent decades. This is something a little more solid to work with than various opinions by VB citizens, which may in fact be subject to bias or a lack of expertise or foresight.

Edited October 11, 2009 by mlsimons

[varider]

Great post mlsimons. I'm sorry for making generalizations about a certain group of people in VaBeach, but the comments I read on the Pilot say it all. If one took a poll in the city of whether you support LR, I bet over 90% of people younger than 30 would support, regardless of cost. Age group 30-70?? Less thn 20%. Some may have leitimate reasons (not wanting to live in a high density development, higher taxes, foot traffic, or whatever), but the majority would have excuses like "my property value will go down because all of the black people getting off the train to rob me blind, or "only poor people ride transit, and I don't like poor people. Although they would never say these things, and hide behind excuses like "no one will ride," or call it "sessoms choo-choo," or any one of the many ignorant phrases I've heard.