Hottest SE City For Development

[up+down=midtown]

but what exaclty is yeehaw junction..they claim to be a tourist attraction but with a name like that i can't take them very serious.

[prahaboheme]

but what exaclty is yeehaw junction..they claim to be a tourist attraction but with a name like that i can't take them very serious.

its just a pit stop in the southern most point of Osceola County to get gas, and well, oranges.

[CorgiMatt]

Columbia, SC, has more developable land in its city center than any other city in America, and the University of South Carolina has just broken ground on the second and third buildings in what will become the school's 5 million square foot innovation district that will be indistinguishable in design and infrastructure from downtown Columbia. It will include retail, public squares and live-work units. And it will stretch to the Congaree River, the land along which has become the most expensive in the Columbia metro area, including land on Lake Murray. Columbia is an urban developer's dream city.

[Lady Celeste]

I voted for Jax. The development is amazing right now. I also voted for Jax because of the sheer number of building permits issued so far this year compared with last year. Ive included a comparison of each of the cities listed, just for some added insight.

City Jan-Aug 2004 Jan-Aug 2005

---------- ------------------ -------------------

Atlanta 49535 49202

Charlotte 15428 14746

Jax 12521 17902

Tampa 19338 24495

Nashville 11173 12144

Orlando 24062 24408

Skyybutter you offer us a comprehensive list on building premits in the various cities. Thank you for brining in building premits as the title of the thread did say "hottest SE City for Development" and did not limit said development to highrise, midrise or lowrise. I would have to ask you two questions however....

(1) where did you get this information and

(2) what type of boundaries are being considered?

I ask the second question because let's sayyyyyyyyyyyy *looking at the figures* Tampa.....it had an increase of 5157 premits issued over January-August 2004. Does this increase includes Tampa city limits and Hillsborough County or just Tampa proper? Jacksonville had a very healthy increase of 5381. Does this include all of Duval County since Jacksonville is consolidated with Duval? I'm not sure how the building premits are broken down so I just thought I would ask.

If the numbers are based on municipalities then I would say that Tampa's city numbers are even more telling and therefore if we are basing this survey on sheer increase in numbers (as building premits are more a sure thing than proposed) then Tampa would get the nod. It would have almost the same number increase in it's city limits as Jacksonville/Duval had in it's entire county. Now of course, I didn't want to mention Atlanta because I don't want people to confuse my post with some type of plug for Atlanta but even with a decrease of 333 premits over 2004's numbers, 49000 premits is quite remarkable. Especially if we are simply considering city limits. As of right now however we do not know this to be true so I will wait a response.

Before someone mentions Miami, yes we know that they have probably 100,000 premits issued. That is a given and from the initial post, we were required not to include Miami since we all know Miami is the hands down winner.

I will eagerly wait either the link where you got these numbers or an explaination of the municipal boundaries used to garner these figures.

Thank you in advance.

[bobliocatt]

Columbia definately has potential, but I still believe its a step below the listed cities at this time.

[teshadoh]

I wouldn't doubt it. Atlanta has kinda sprawled out of control, while for many, Charlotte is an ideal size. But with the way people continually move into the region, it won't stay that way for long. I can even see the effects trickling down to Rock Hill.

You are absolutely right - it does bring up the question of Atlanta being too big for it's own good. For many in Atlanta, particularly the suburbs - moving to Charlotte makes perfect sense. Great economy & is just about the right size

[Lady Celeste]

I would also like to add that looking at the building premits issued numbers provided, once would surmise that Jacksonville and Tampa are experiencing some appreciable increases in development. Why are these two cities often overlooked when it comes to "hottest SE cities for development?" Of course except for developers themselves. Maybe we have to designate what development means to us because a big building is not the only thing development entails.

[krazeeboi]

Columbia, SC, has more developable land in its city center than any other city in America, and the University of South Carolina has just broken ground on the second and third buildings in what will become the school's 5 million square foot innovation district that will be indistinguishable in design and infrastructure from downtown Columbia. It will include retail, public squares and live-work units. And it will stretch to the Congaree River, the land along which has become the most expensive in the Columbia metro area, including land on Lake Murray. Columbia is an urban developer's dream city.

You are absolutely correct; if I were a developer, I'd be having a field day in Columbia right now.

Lakelander, you are correct as well; it will definitely take time for Columbia to step up into a higher tier. At least all the ingredients are present for this to occur, hopefully within my lifetime (the initial phases at least).

[Viper]

Lady Celeste, brilliant points and equally brilliant question.

In my opinion, development should include any new construction, home, office, government, education, industrial, etc..., as well as re-construction and refurbishments (granted those are much harder to track). With this also includes civic construction, i.e. roads, public transportation, parks, etc...

This will further complicate the matter in that many of those factors are tabulated as county figures or at least city only figures can prove to be more difficult to come by.

As you also noted arbitrary boundaries can easily skew the given figures but perhaps that is what makes the development within just the CBD an easier means of comparison.

[Martinman]

Skyybutter you offer us a comprehensive list on building premits in the various cities. Thank you for brining in building premits as the title of the thread did say "hottest SE City for Development" and did not limit said development to highrise, midrise or lowrise. I would have to ask you two questions however....

(1) where did you get this information and

(2) what type of boundaries are being considered?

I ask the second question because let's sayyyyyyyyyyyy *looking at the figures* Tampa.....it had an increase of 5157 premits issued over January-August 2004. Does this increase includes Tampa city limits and Hillsborough County or just Tampa proper? Jacksonville had a very healthy increase of 5381. Does this include all of Duval County since Jacksonville is consolidated with Duval? I'm not sure how the building premits are broken down so I just thought I would ask.

If the numbers are based on municipalities then I would say that Tampa's city numbers are even more telling and therefore if we are basing this survey on sheer increase in numbers (as building premits are more a sure thing than proposed) then Tampa would get the nod. It would have almost the same number increase in it's city limits as Jacksonville/Duval had in it's entire county. Now of course, I didn't want to mention Atlanta because I don't want people to confuse my post with some type of plug for Atlanta but even with a decrease of 333 premits over 2004's numbers, 49000 premits is quite remarkable. Especially if we are simply considering city limits. As of right now however we do not know this to be true so I will wait a response.

Before someone mentions Miami, yes we know that they have probably 100,000 premits issued. That is a given and from the initial post, we were required not to include Miami since we all know Miami is the hands down winner.

I will eagerly wait either the link where you got these numbers or an explaination of the municipal boundaries used to garner these figures.

Thank you in advance.

I just looked at the census data. Those numbers are for the MSA

[Lady Celeste]

Lady Celeste, brilliant points and equally brilliant question.

In my opinion, development should include any new construction, home, office, government, education, industrial, etc..., as well as re-construction and refurbishments (granted those are much harder to track). With this also includes civic construction, i.e. roads, public transportation, parks, etc...

This will further complicate the matter in that many of those factors are tabulated as county figures or at least city only figures can prove to be more difficult to come by.

As you also noted arbitrary boundaries can easily skew the given figures but perhaps that is what makes the development within just the CBD an easier means of comparison.

Very good points you present also Viper. Especially your last statement. What I'm finding when I read these types of threads, I see people discussing only those developments that are visible. While some 50 story tower is definitely a visible sign of growth, one must then also consider the smaller development that makes a city a city...i.e, a new small private school or the bakery or the new club where you can get a cup of coffee and hear some amateur poet read their lastest poem. Basically things you listed in your first paragraph. Too often we discuss the really big developments while missing the smaller developments.

I wish there was a way to get permit issuances for a more confined area like the CBD. From a developers point of view however, a city is a city and not limited to a CBD. Maybe I am wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over thinking this. Numbers can be played with and presented in so many ways that one may not fully know what is up or down.

I just looked at the census data. Those numbers are for the MSA

Martinman, what would I do without. If I have a question you always try to find the answer.

I will take you at your word and not even verify your post.

So good people there you have it. MSA's. This being the case then Tampa and Jacksonville both are definitely being overlooked. Even Orlando for that matter. I guess once you digest the permit issuances one can wager that Jacksonville and Tampa are neck and neck for hottest development in SE......that's of course if you are looking at year to year increases. Because now I will need to get the square miles of the MSAs of aforementioned cities (ahem.....oh where oh where is Martinman??). Again while Atlanta has a ton of permits issued, I would need to know the square miles of MSAs to know just what type of impact these numbers really have.....even though I totally cosign with Viper's earlier statement about looking at the CBD....or (and this is just for personal preference) the CBD and maybe a 10 mile radius.

Okay, I'm over thinking this again.

I'll just continue reading the additional post for clarity.

[RiversideGator]

Those permit #s must be for the MSAs just judging by the relative numbers compared with the sizes of the various MSAs.

[Skyybutter]

Skyybutter you offer us a comprehensive list on building premits in the various cities. Thank you for brining in building premits as the title of the thread did say "hottest SE City for Development" and did not limit said development to highrise, midrise or lowrise. I would have to ask you two questions however....

(1) where did you get this information and

(2) what type of boundaries are being considered?

I ask the second question because let's sayyyyyyyyyyyy *looking at the figures* Tampa.....it had an increase of 5157 premits issued over January-August 2004. Does this increase includes Tampa city limits and Hillsborough County or just Tampa proper? Jacksonville had a very healthy increase of 5381. Does this include all of Duval County since Jacksonville is consolidated with Duval? I'm not sure how the building premits are broken down so I just thought I would ask.

If the numbers are based on municipalities then I would say that Tampa's city numbers are even more telling and therefore if we are basing this survey on sheer increase in numbers (as building premits are more a sure thing than proposed) then Tampa would get the nod. It would have almost the same number increase in it's city limits as Jacksonville/Duval had in it's entire county. Now of course, I didn't want to mention Atlanta because I don't want people to confuse my post with some type of plug for Atlanta but even with a decrease of 333 premits over 2004's numbers, 49000 premits is quite remarkable. Especially if we are simply considering city limits. As of right now however we do not know this to be true so I will wait a response.

Before someone mentions Miami, yes we know that they have probably 100,000 premits issued. That is a given and from the initial post, we were required not to include Miami since we all know Miami is the hands down winner.

I will eagerly wait either the link where you got these numbers or an explaination of the municipal boundaries used to garner these figures.

Thank you in advance.

I got the figures from the US Census website. Here is the link.Building permits

You can search metropolitan areas(which is the numbers I provided). You can also search county and municipality. I always look forward to updates monthly. The census usually updates permits for the previous month on or around the 26th of each month. Expect September numbers around October 26th. ( Im sure you figured that out though...hehe). Enjoy

[RiversideGator]

By the way, I love the name "Yeehaw Junction, Florida". It is a bit of Old Florida which so many of the modernizers and Yankees would love to do away with. Long may it holler.

City Jan-Aug 2004 Jan-Aug 2005

---------- ------------------ -------------------

Atlanta 49535 49202

Charlotte 15428 14746

Jax 12521 17902

Tampa 19338 24495

Nashville 11173 12144

Orlando 24062 24408

This may indicate that Jacksonville is now experiencing a massive growth spurt unexpected by all of us. I wonder how much of this is attributable to all the exposure we got from the Super Bowl.

[Lady Celeste]

Thanks Skyybutter. I appreciate the links.

[socaguy]

Atlanta.

[Viper]

Atl - 6,124 square miles - 8.034 houses/sq mile

Nas - 4,073 square miles - 2.981 houses/sq mile

Orl - 3,491 square miles - 6.991 houses/sq mile

Cha - 3,377 square miles - 4.366 houses/sq mile

Jax - 2,635 square miles - 6.793 houses/sq mile

Tam - 2,554 square miles - 9.590 houses/sq mile

Source: 2000

EDITED for further content.

[Lady Celeste]

Atl - 6,124 square miles

Nas - 4,073 square miles

Orl - 3,491 square miles

Cha - 3,377 square miles

Jax - 2,635 square miles

Tam - 2,554 square miles

Source: 2000

Thanks so much Viper. You are on top of things I see. A man about action. You are a treasure.

Before anyone complains, I know the question was about cities themselves. Skybutter offered permits/MSA and Viper so graciously provided me with square miles per MSA. I know that boundaries can change. I'm just going to use this information provided to me for the sake of argument. Using this data, I tried to get an average of permits per square miles. This is sooooooo unscientific but if you take permits and divide it per square miles.........

Tampa = 9.55 permits/sq mi

Atlanta = 8.03 permits/sq mi

Orlando= 6.99 permits/sq mi

Jacksonville= 6.79 permits/sq mi

Charlotte= 4.36 permits/sq mi

Nashville= 2.98 permits/sq mi

All I can gather is that Tampa is a beast. This of course is not considering proposed or approved development. This is what is going on right now......well maybe not right now because most workers do not work at this time of night. Anywhoooooooo, these are raw numbers. I try to be as impartial as I possibly can. While this does not capture a snapshot of the city proper, this does give an interesting idea of area development in the respective cities.

Florida cities are on fire. North Florida cities are definitely sharing in the development as well.

Oh yeah...........before someone brings up how MSAs are formulated........I know that everyone can find why their city's MSA is either too big or too small. I'm not trying to get a snapshot of how commuters travel in each city but rather I wanted to use the numbers presented by Skyybutter. BTW, I have no forgotten the CBD idea brought to me by Viper. I'm sure some of you very astute posters will come up with another way for me to look at this. I welcome all avenues of interpetation.

[Skyybutter]

By the way, I love the name "Yeehaw Junction, Florida". It is a bit of Old Florida which so many of the modernizers and Yankees would love to do away with. Long may it holler.

This may indicate that Jacksonville is now experiencing a massive growth spurt unexpected by all of us. I wonder how much of this is attributable to all the exposure we got from the Super Bowl.

I thought the same thing regarding Jax growth due to the super bowl. It was great exposure. Not that Jax wouldnt have continued growing without the superbowl, but people visiting Jax were very impressed with the city. These are people that likely would have never visited Jax had it not been for the game. Im sure Jax will reep the benefits for years to come from that one day. Its awesome for you guys!

[eastsider]

Before anyone complains, I know the question was about cities themselves. Skybutter offered permits/MSA and Viper so graciously provided me with square miles per MSA. I know that boundaries can change. I'm just going to use this information provided to me for the sake of argument. Using this data, I tried to get an average of permits per square miles. This is sooooooo unscientific but if you take permits and divide it per square miles.........

Tampa = 9.55 permits/sq mi

Atlanta = 8.03 permits/sq mi

Orlando= 6.99 permits/sq mi

Jacksonville= 6.79 permits/sq mi

Charlotte= 4.36 permits/sq mi

Nashville= 2.98 permits/sq mi

All I can gather is that Tampa is a beast. This of course is not considering proposed or approved development. This is what is going on right now......well maybe not right now because most workers do not work at this time of night. Anywhoooooooo, these are raw numbers. I try to be as impartial as I possibly can. While this does not capture a snapshot of the city proper, this does give an interesting idea of area development in the respective cities.

Just out of curiosity, I ran the numbers for Miami and useing this method and Tampa is right up there with them.

Miami = 9.65 permits/sq mi (30,418 permits Jan-Aug 05, 3,151 sq mi)

Then there is a city like Myrtle Beach that is in the mix with the bigger southern cities.

Myrtle Beach = 6.94 permits/sq mi (7,869 permits Jan-Aug 05, 1,134 sq mi)

Like you said, very unscientific, but it is interesting to see where these metros rank by this formula.

[RiversideGator]

Eastsider: Did you use the Miami/Ft Lauderdale/W Palm Beach metro area for the Miami MSA?

[eastsider]

The listing on that link said Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, so I maybe that didn't cover all the building permits?

[bobliocatt]

^The Miami numbers include West Palm Beach.

[Aessotariq]

That land area figure seems a little small to include all three counties -- 3,151: that's about the total area of Miami-Dade and Broward together. Unless they are only counting legally developable land that isn't within the Everglades, which seems reasonable.

[Martinman]

From the census link:

Heres the number of units year to date in structures with 5 or more units which would be condos and other more dense developments.

Atlanta 7752

Cape Coral/Fort Myers 3658

Charlotte 1681

Jacksonville 4748

Miami 13244

Nashville 2260

Orlando 5556

Tampa 4532

Btw I think Miami #s do include West Palm Beach because its not listed seperately.