Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[cosmo2012]

Just something that's been on my mind... It's very discerning to hear a lot of the comments from people on the Virginian-Pilot articles concerning The Tide. They refer to it as "blight" rail, even the "Tide of Failure." I just don't get how these people can be so pessimistic about this project! Gas will soon top $4 a gallon! Mass transit is the ONLY solution until we have the technology to not be so dependent on fossil fuels. It takes time for an extensive system to come about and this is the first line of many to come in this area. I can't contain my excitement that one day I might not even need a car! For those of you who have convinced yourselves that The Tide will fail, wake up! The only thing I can see failing is our sole reliance on personal transportation.

Sorry for the rant.... Just had to get that off my chest.

[Sky06]

Just something that's been on my mind... It's very discerning to hear a lot of the comments from people on the Virginian-Pilot articles concerning The Tide. They refer to it as "blight" rail, even the "Tide of Failure." I just don't get how these people can be so pessimistic about this project! Gas will soon top $4 a gallon! Mass transit is the ONLY solution until we have the technology to not be so dependent on fossil fuels. It takes time for an extensive system to come about and this is the first line of many to come in this area. I can't contain my excitement that one day I might not even need a car! For those of you who have convinced yourselves that The Tide will fail, wake up! The only thing I can see failing is our sole reliance on personal transportation.

Sorry for the rant.... Just had to get that off my chest.

Your frustrations are felt by those on this site as well. You're talking about misinformed people who think (a) The money COULD be better spent on something else in transportation (WRONG: The Feds gave us their portion of the money for THIS project and THIS project alone), (b) The money should be given back to taxpayers so they can waste, I mean, spend it on themselves (WRONG: This is NOT their money; it's monies earmarked for transportation, not tax-breaks), © The project will not succeed because projections are overstated (WRONG: I'll bet anyone on this site the numbers are BELOW actual ridership--we see that with every project ever built in this town), (d) The money is a reflection of developer subsidy practices (WRONG: This has nothing to do with such practices; the money is not for developers). I could go on, but I'm bored thinking about those whiners.

[VAGATOR]

Most people who post on Pilotonline.com are idiots who have multiple screen names. I wish they would disable the feature, or hide it a little bit.

[vdogg]

Just something that's been on my mind... It's very discerning to hear a lot of the comments from people on the Virginian-Pilot articles concerning The Tide. They refer to it as "blight" rail, even the "Tide of Failure." I just don't get how these people can be so pessimistic about this project! Gas will soon top $4 a gallon! Mass transit is the ONLY solution until we have the technology to not be so dependent on fossil fuels. It takes time for an extensive system to come about and this is the first line of many to come in this area. I can't contain my excitement that one day I might not even need a car! For those of you who have convinced yourselves that The Tide will fail, wake up! The only thing I can see failing is our sole reliance on personal transportation.

Sorry for the rant.... Just had to get that off my chest.

There was an article in the paper recently about how many in HR are actually starting to turn to alternative transit due to commute times and gas prices. It was backed up with facts and figures and gives real evidence that the attitude in the region is changing. The people on the pilot are a very vocal minority and their opinions are in direct contradiction with the overall attitude shift in the region that the article indicates. I wouldn't be to worried about them.

[Henry_Ryto]

First of all, let me say that anyone who understands the methodology the FTA requires for projecting ridership knows that The Tide will top projections. Special events (such as Tides games) can't be used, feeder bus transfers must be discounted, etc.

Why I logged on this morning was to give an update on Cedar Grove, downtown Norfolk's new transfer center.

1. HRT is backing off making it the permanent TC. I quote from Michael Townes' April CEO Report:

"The downtown transfer center will remain at the Princess Anne Rd. - Monticello Ave. area until a permanent downtown transfer facility which will better integrate with light rail (emphasis mine) can be planned and constructed in partnership with the City of Norfolk."

Given the portion I underscored, it couldn't be Cedar Grove, as it's too far from the rail line.

2. The issue of evening safety at Cedar Grove has been raised in this thread. Last night I made my first after-sunset transfer through there, laying over 9:15-9:30 P.M.

A. The TC was pretty well lit, better than Charlotte Street.

B. Buses were constantly there.

C. There was a nice crowd, about 45 people waiting for transfers.

I actually felt safer at Cedar Grove than I did at the former TC on Charlotte Street.

[scm]

First of all, let me say that anyone who understands the methodology the FTA requires for projecting ridership knows that The Tide will top projections.

I stole this from a great website, LightRailNow:

Here are some figures on recent light rail ridership projections vs. achievement:

[Sky06]

Less than stellar pics:

Edited April 26, 2008 by Sky06

[cosmo2012]

There was an article in the paper recently about how many in HR are actually starting to turn to alternative transit due to commute times and gas prices. It was backed up with facts and figures and gives real evidence that the attitude in the region is changing. The people on the pilot are a very vocal minority and their opinions are in direct contradiction with the overall attitude shift in the region that the article indicates. I wouldn't be to worried about them.

Well that definitely puts my mind to ease.

[scm]

There was an article in the paper recently about how many in HR are actually starting to turn to alternative transit due to commute times and gas prices.

Backed up by a survey of local residents conducted by CNU:

Kidd said he was surprised that 60 percent of those surveyed supported the light rail project and expanding mass transit, making it second only to the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel in importance. "The idea that light rail is at the top of the list, as opposed to (U.S.) 460, suggests there is disconnect between what everyday drivers are interested in and what regional leaders want," he said, noting that expanding U.S. 460 was ranked last in importance by those surveyed.

The entire survey, coverning all transportation issues in HR, is reported in this article.

[vdogg]

Yeah, I was impressed by that. I knew there was support but 60 percent is quite substantial. Perhaps substantial enough to get some of the other local politicians on board. The pilot online commentors are not representative of our area, thats not only a refreshing thought but also a refreshing fact.

[stillill]

Yeah, I was impressed by that. I knew the was support but 60 percent is quite substantial. Perhaps substantial enough to get some of the other local politicians on board. The pilot online commentors are not representative of our area, thats not only a refreshing thought but also a refreshing fact.

I couldn't agree more. Optimistic people who love our area should be encouraged to post just as vehemently as the nay-sayers. I am trying to do my part! Comment early and comment often.

[Sky06]

I couldn't agree more. Optimistic people who love our area should be encouraged to post just as vehemently as the nay-sayers. I am trying to do my part! Comment early and comment often.

We appreciate that. I've been noticing that there are others besides the same tax-complaining, "vote 'em out" posters on the site. Most likely, a lot of them from here.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Sky06

[goofy328]

Your frustrations are felt by those on this site as well. You're talking about misinformed people who think (a) The money COULD be better spent on something else in transportation (WRONG: The Feds gave us their portion of the money for THIS project and THIS project alone), (b) The money should be given back to taxpayers so they can waste, I mean, spend it on themselves (WRONG: This is NOT their money; it's monies earmarked for transportation, not tax-breaks),

Edited May 7, 2008 by goofy328

[scm]

Planners want Kirn light rail station to have an indelible identity

Downtowners say one thing that's missing in the city's urban revitalization is an iconic public gathering spot that gives Norfolk an unmistakable identity and sense of place. Planners want to create that place around a light-rail station that will be built on the site of Kirn Memorial Library.

[vdogg]

You know, I always did wonder how they'd fit an office tower on that land. It didn't seem big enough to me either. Not too sure about the clock tower. It's a bit too small townish for my taste. The rest though seems like a step in the right direction.

[spiker3]

Planners want Kirn light rail station to have an indelible identity

The biggest issue i have might be more at the Pilot than DNC, but this in no way strikes me as in the same realm of a Seattle Fish Market, St Louis Arch, etc. Hopefully that was just the Pilot stretching the analogies and not the intention of these people. To me, while appealing, the rendering lacks any distinct feature or landmark. The bell tower is the only thing, and i agree vdogg, a little too small town main square for an urban center like Norfolk. Where's the originality? A park with benches, plazas and fountains? Big deal. you think virginia beach is going to be identified by the fountain with three bronze birds in the middle? Of course not. If this is the 'gateway' to downtown, to the heart of Norfolk, then let's get some people thinking outside the box, something bold and original, that will instantly be recognizable as being 'in Norfolk' (and please God not a mermaid)

I know it's not going to happen but blandness/cookie cutter belongs in Town Center not in downtow Norfolk. That rendering could be a light rail station in Charlotte, Portland, Dallas, anywhere.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

The biggest issue i have might be more at the Pilot than DNC, but this in no way strikes me as in the same realm of a Seattle Fish Market, St Louis Arch, etc. Hopefully that was just the Pilot stretching the analogies and not the intention of these people. To me, while appealing, the rendering lacks any distinct feature or landmark. The bell tower is the only thing, and i agree vdogg, a little too small town main square for an urban center like Norfolk. Where's the originality? A park with benches, plazas and fountains? Big deal. you think virginia beach is going to be identified by the fountain with three bronze birds in the middle? Of course not. If this is the 'gateway' to downtown, to the heart of Norfolk, then let's get some people thinking outside the box, something bold and original, that will instantly be recognizable as being 'in Norfolk' (and please God not a mermaid)

I know it's not going to happen but blandness/cookie cutter belongs in Town Center not in downtow Norfolk. That rendering could be a light rail station in Charlotte, Portland, Dallas, anywhere.

I couldn't agree more... but I tend to see this as a positive step; if we could get something substantial - a big draw on that property, it could be a huge success. But a step in the right direction nonetheless !

[vtfan18]

You know, I always did wonder how they'd fit an office tower on that land. It didn't seem big enough to me either. Not too sure about the clock tower. It's a bit too small townish for my taste. The rest though seems like a step in the right direction.

I'll first say other cities who are scarce on land put up office towers on lots that size. New York definitely has towers on small lots. But anyway, this rendering is classis Ray Gindroz, he has mastered this type of style and design and puts it down in everyone of his projects. It's nothing unique or special. I'm not even going to say anything about the style, you all know I dislike the small town classic look that we so often try to replicate here in Norfolk. I'm just happy to see light rail and agree with the Kevin Murphy from the DNC, it needs more personality! The clock tower has got to go!

[vdogg]

I'll first say other cities who are scarce on land put up office towers on lots that size. New York definitely has towers on small lots. But anyway, this rendering is classis Ray Gindroz, he has mastered this type of style and design and puts it down in everyone of his projects. It's nothing unique or special. I'm not even going to say anything about the style, you all know I dislike the small town classic look that we so often try to replicate here in Norfolk. I'm just happy to see light rail and agree with the Kevin Murphy from the DNC, it needs more personality! The clock tower has got to go!

Well, you need to put Frank Duke in contact with someone form NY because he obviously dropped the ball. I know they put buildings on small lots in NY but I do see the challenge in building on a lot this size that will have a rail line running right through the middle of it. Also, NY has a solid foundation of bedrock and doesn't have to worry about pile driving as much as we do. I wonder if that has any bearing on the size lot a tower can be constructed on?

Until now, the vision for the rail station has been an office tower built over a ground-level rail station. Frank Duke, city planning director, said the site isn't large enough to support an office building.

[Sky06]

I'd like to see something reminiscent of one of the grand terminals (including Norfolk's own Union Station, below) that doubles as mixed use, with shops, restaurants, and office space. This would not only attract potential users of light rail but also would serve as a gateway of sorts.

Click and Scroll Down

Edited May 12, 2008 by Sky06

[virginia pe]

I know they put buildings on small lots in NY but I do see the challenge in building on a lot this size that will have a rail line running right through the middle of it. Also, NY has a solid foundation of bedrock and doesn't have to worry about pile driving as much as we do. I wonder if that has any bearing on the size lot a tower can be constructed on?

It would be a challenge to put a tower on the Kirn site. Every floor needs elevators, stairs, restrooms, and mechanical chases. All of these elements and their utilites come down to the ground floor, and would have to be located around the light rail that bisects the site diagonally. Not just the rail itself, but the public space for waiting, ticketing, etc. adjacent to the rail line. Once you locate all of these elements at the ground level, you have to make sure they are also located on the floor plan for the upper floors so that there is a logical layout that is leasable. However, the library seems to have a good deal of space. I think it may be possible.

New York's bedrock provides more economical foundation, but having to drive piles does not preclude a tower. A small lot can still have a tower, but the lot size may limit the height of the tower. In general, when the height of the tower is more than five times the width, it gets pretty expensive. I believe you could build a tower on this site - maybe not 20 stories, but still a tower. The foundation for Cosmo 418 on a lot that is only 20 feet wide would have been a bigger challenge. I do not think there is enough space for a grand concourse, as has been suggested, but a tower appears to be doable.

What I like best about the Gindroz design is that the buildings are relatively small and inexpensive - in other words, disposable. When the city lacks the vision to build something bold and original, at least they should refrain from building an expensive, permanent mistake. (The same can be said about the parking lot at St. Pauls Quadrant - at least it's not Broad Creek suburban-style housing.)

When light rail becomes a proven success, some developer will propose a high-rise tower on this site if the city will donate the land. With the light rail station, this land is just too valuable for a bunch of small pavillions and an outdoor plaza. If the politicians and bureaucrats lack vision, the private sector will provide it. Part of what makes Wachovia successful is its location next to a light rail station, but that will be nothing compared to having a light rail station in the building. When it happens, let's hope the preservationists do not insiste the clock tower be incorporated into the facade of the new building.

[vdogg]

When it happens, let's hope the preservationists do not insiste the clock tower be incorporated into the facade of the new building.

Sad thing is I could really see that happening.

[scm]

I'd like to see something reminiscent of one of the grand terminals (including Norfolk's own Union Station, below) ...

Slightly off topic (grin), but does any one with a REALLY long memory, remember just where this Union Station was located? The link says it was "at the end of E. Main Street". Was it where city hall is now, or further east, say where Harbor Park is now?

[scm]

Economic factors point to even higher ridership factors once the Tide is actually running.

Gas Prices Send Surge of Riders to Mass Transit

[Padman]

The old Union Station was well east of the center of downtown, in the general vicinity of Harbor Park. I don't remember it, but there are some old photos. You can Google "Norfolk Union Station" and you'll see.

I don't think that the library site is really too small to contain a station and an office building, but it would make for a complex project, especially with the LRT construction schedule now upon us. Norfolk is facing a pretty big and untimely capital expense with the proposed new courts building. Otherwise, we might have been able to replace the Kirn sooner. It will all work out eventually. Maybe we could discuss the idea of building a regional library for the Southside someday?