Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Henry_Ryto]

Im curious to see where Portsmouth's Light Rail route would run. It would make sense to have a stop at old town, downtown, and Naval hospital, maybe naval shipyard too. However, these stops would require the train to essentially backtrack. Wouldnt it make more sense to send it through the downtown tunnel? Then it could potentially be split into a Chesapeake route and a Portsmouth route like 264 and 464. You want the stops to service the most populous areas, whether it be residential, commercial or industrial.

The catch is that Norfolk's Starter Line terminates within field goal range of the Midtown Tunnel. It would be an easy extension to do.

[scm]

Im curious to see where Portsmouth's Light Rail route would run.

I thought this through. It needs to start at the Midtown, to tie into the west end of the starter segment. Then, after it comes out, it should run alongside Harper Ave, west, to the east side of the MLK freeway. You would want a station there to serve Port Norfolk via connector busses.

Then south to London along the east side of the MLK. Not much in the way until you come to London, where you might have to take out a few houses in the SW corner of Shea Terrace. Rebuild London with four lanes of vehicle traffic and two dedicated LR lanes, along the north side of the existing street. East to Effingham, with the station serving the Naval Hospital at that corner. I know it is not on the doorstep. Never will be, since the NH is a dead end. More shuttle busses that loop around on Crawford around Old Town.

Then, south on Effingham, under 264 by expanding the existing overpass. Effingham south of 264, now three lanes on each side, could be rebuilt just like London. All the way down to NNSY, with a station carved on that parking lot at P'mouth Blvd and Effingham -- plenty of bus bay space for feeder routes from the south and west. All of this routing minimizes the number of buildings removed, serves all of the trip generators, and has potential for feeder bus traffic.

The reason the new city manager, Ken Chandler, is so big on this, is that he formerly worked in Arlington. He has seen the effect of transit oriented development on real estate values. This would turn Port Norfolk and Shea Terrace into easy commuter neighborhoods for the Medical Center and downtown Norfolk. It would make Old Town RE values skyrocket, as it becomes both a destination (for retail and restaurant) and a "bedroom" community. LR has the potential to redefine the old RE paradigm of "location, location, location". It can do it in Portsmouth.

[supernoga]

I thought this through. It needs to start at the Midtown, to tie into the west end of the starter segment.

Right, I guess Im talking about the future more than the present. In the long-term, we would need more than one route. So, I was thinking Blue line from VB Oceanfront to ODU, Orange line from DT Norfolk to Ptown and points west; Red Line from DT Norfolk to Central Chesapeake.

That is 50 years down the road though.

[vdogg]

A shortsighted reaction

I served as the university’s representative on the light rail commission from 2000 until I also retired in 2006. I came back to the university to serve as the administrator for the presidential search that yielded Dr. Carolyn Meyers and returned again last year at her request to organize the inauguration and help with the transition.

Sometimes what you see is not what you get, and I now find myself apologizing for any role I may have had in bringing anything to NSU other than strong, sensible and visionary leadership.

It is more important that the community be allowed to prosper from the access the rail provides to business and industry than it is to worry about one person’s personal preference.

The city of Norfolk should be applauded for standing fast. It is unfair to say, as the editorial did, that NSU cannot be trusted; and, though I can be viewed as having a personal bias, it should be noted that the reason for a memorandum of understanding is generally to avoid this kind of problem if there is a change in the decision makers.

I am proud to have been associated with NSU, and I hope its reputation does not suffer because of the actions of someone who, at best, appears to have acted ill-advisedly and in haste.

Karla Johnson

Astor, Fla.

Here's an interesting reply from someone who was involved with NSU at the time of the negotiations to get light rail to campus. It makes the decisions of the current administration all the more baffling.

[vdogg]

Hmm... I'm thinking Norfolk dropped the ball in the way that they handled this.

Anne O’Dell , an assistant city manager, helped develop the plan to move the Charlotte Street stop. She said the buses will not return because the “purpose of that corner has changed.”

The new building, and its parking deck and retail outlets, would make the place too dense, but she added, the “thought did not enter our minds” to create a situation that would discourage riders.

“People are central to downtown and making it work,” she said.

O’Dell said the Cedar Grove lot was the only new location suggested by HRT officials .

But James Toscano , HRT’s vice president for public affairs, said the agency had proposed 10 locations in downtown and all were rejected

by Norfolk except Cedar Grove....

This seems to be an overall lack in foresight by the city. My main concern is why move the main transfer station out of downtown, when you are bringING light rail into downtown? Wouldn't you want the transfer station to coincide with one of the main LR stops, or at least some sort of multimodal hub that is convenient to the area?

[scm]

VP gets onboard for LR in the Midtown, as part of a regional solution.

Portsmouth has it right. Looking years into the future, the city is pushing the Virginia Department of Transportation to include light rail in its plans for a new tube at the Midtown Tunnel. With gas heading toward $4 or more a gallon, with bottlenecks still tightening at the water crossings, and with a growing appetite for smart growth, rail and public transportation should be part of any plan for every transportation project.

In the meantime, the region as a whole must begin the task of planning for what a light rail system might look like beyond Norfolk's beginning. Portsmouth's hopes - like the Norfolk line it builds on - are simply a start toward that wider regional conversation about where light rail goes from here.

[brikkman]

Right, I guess Im talking about the future more than the present. In the long-term, we would need more than one route. So, I was thinking Blue line from VB Oceanfront to ODU, Orange line from DT Norfolk to Ptown and points west; Red Line from DT Norfolk to Central Chesapeake.

That is 50 years down the road though.

I maybe little more optimistic than most, but I sent this article to my friends and family so that people could get an appreciation of the gas situation: http://hamptonroads.cox.net/cci/newsnation...validatearticle

That 50 years could get offset with the need to fix this crisis that the oil barrens say isn't a problem. I predict and it is my hope, a mass rush to transform public/transportation which pushes the expansion of LR in this area and others. More fuel efficient cars are not the answer because alternative fuel increases other aspects of life.

Edited April 2, 2008 by brikkman

[brikkman]

VP gets onboard for LR in the Midtown, as part of a regional solution.

I guess he was thinking exactly what I was thinking.. One thing we can not change is our bottlenecks goof-ball drivers insure that.

[lammius]

Ideally this bus transfer center would be at the AMTRAK high speed rail station next to Harbor Park. You'd have a multi-modal center with connections available between high speed train, light rail, buses, cabs, ferries, heliport, whatever else you could bring in there. This would be the transportation hub for the region. You could even give it a cheesey name like Metro Center or City Terminal.

How safe would it be to stand out there at Cedar Grove late at night waiting for a transfer?

[scm]

Ideally this bus transfer center would be at the AMTRAK high speed rail station next to Harbor Park.

I believe this is a temporary situation, even though they haven't identified the follow-on. It DOES need to have LR connections, and I am almost certain it will. Henry, any insights?

Now, for the correct location of a future multi-modal station. As attractive as the Harbor Park location appears, it isn't in the right place for H/S rail access, especially as we plan for the future. There is NO access to that from the north, including any future tubes in the third crossing. You also have to compete with the NS coal lines running to Lamberts Point. The right place to put that is in the industrial area off 264 and Ballentine, at Westminister Ave. That is a large, little used industrial area. It is adjacent to the LR line, and directly on the double tracked lines north. South, the bridge could be expanded to double track and be supported by a marshalling yard on the old Ford plant rail head off Campostella, a necessity for a station at the end of the line. The double tracked lines that go north from the Westminister Ave location go directly to the Naval Station, and lead right into the future third crossing. Commuter rail could serve as far as Elizabeth City and Franklin/Suffolk from this location now, and Williamsburg later. Easy transfer to LR for downtown or Town Center employment centers. All in all, a better, more central location with better rail line, and equal highway access.

[Former Resident of HR]

Norfolk and HRT is like the blind leading the blank. They obviously want to move bus riders out of downtown because poor people ride buses and are not trendy enough to see when the fine people at the Wachovia Centre look out their windows. The sad part is that many of these people work downtown cleaning the offices of the snobs who don't want to see how they get home. Now they are moved another 15 minute walk (or 120 minute shuttle ride) to the north for what reason? They could/should have moved it back to the Monticello side of Scope for the time being. As a citizen, I am pretty disgusted with the lack of vision from both entities. Further reason I have little faith that the LR system will be any better thought out. Welcome to Baltimore Jr. or Detroit III.

[Henry_Ryto]

I believe this is a temporary situation, even though they haven't identified the follow-on. It DOES need to have LR connections, and I am almost certain it will. Henry, any insights?

Now, for the correct location of a future multi-modal station. As attractive as the Harbor Park location appears, it isn't in the right place for H/S rail access, especially as we plan for the future. There is NO access to that from the north, including any future tubes in the third crossing. You also have to compete with the NS coal lines running to Lamberts Point. The right place to put that is in the industrial area off 264 and Ballentine, at Westminister Ave. That is a large, little used industrial area. It is adjacent to the LR line, and directly on the double tracked lines north. South, the bridge could be expanded to double track and be supported by a marshalling yard on the old Ford plant rail head off Campostella, a necessity for a station at the end of the line. The double tracked lines that go north from the Westminister Ave location go directly to the Naval Station, and lead right into the future third crossing. Commuter rail could serve as far as Elizabeth City and Franklin/Suffolk from this location now, and Williamsburg later. Easy transfer to LR for downtown or Town Center employment centers. All in all, a better, more central location with better rail line, and equal highway access.

Oh, I get called upon again.

Norfolk politicos have talked in the past few years about a multimodal facility at Harbor Park. As lammius pointed out, you could collect LRT, HSR, and buses at one point on the periphery of downtown. Anyone with a lick of sense should support it.

Of course, common sense and government are usually mutually exclusive. Two stories this week have referenced HRT as stating a permanent TC would probably be built at Cedar Grove. That would place buses and rail on opposite sides of downtown. My thoughts on that wouldn't make it through a word filter.

HSR on Ballentine? Too far from downtown for a bus TC.

lammius,

Russell Manning has blogged at 757 Hampton Roads on the security issue. There's a security guard in a truck for the parking lots, but he's usually on the other side of the lots. Yes, it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

FYI, Russell has an appointment pending to be a Norfolk rep on HRT's User Citizen Advisory Committee (UCAC). I met him at last week's UCAC meeting. Nice, quiet guy who takes Route 3 to/from classes at TCC-Norfolk.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Henry_Ryto

[vdogg]

Two stories this week have referenced HRT as stating a permanent TC would probably be built at Cedar Grove. That would place buses and rail on opposite sides of downtown. My thoughts on that wouldn't make it through a word filter.

Permanent? Wtf? (that one won't make it through the word filter in full form either ). At first I was thinking that some of the comments on the pilot were reactionary, but some are starting to ring true. It really does seem as though Norfolk it trying to vacate the bus riders from the more desirable part of town, as Cedar Grove has no obvious strategic value. I hope these people realize that if the want transit to be a part of downtown, the people that ride that transit have to be a part of it too. These foolish decisions of late have made me start to ponder whether Norfolk truly does need a top down change of management, including the mayor. They must be a little too comfortable in their seats if they're making choices like this. At least Burfoot has spoken out about this, perhaps they will come to their senses.

[Henry_Ryto]

scm,

Since you seem well-versed in rail, while I'm our resident bus expert, let me think out loud here. Is the rail line that crosses Virginia Beach Blvd. between Tidewater Drive & Booker T. Washington suitable for HSR?

If so, could the rail station be put on the SE corner of Tidewater Drive/Virginia Beach Blvd. (the old Goodwill store)? If not enough room there for the buses, the NR&HA owns the property on the NW corner. The buses could go there, with a diagnol pedestrian bridge connecting them?

While I would prefer Harbor Park, that would be my Plan B if feasible. The good roads there are suitable for getting buses in/out on. Most of the bus routes going downtown could be rerouted there fairly easily.

[Henry_Ryto]

Permanent? Wtf? (that one won't make it through the word filter in full form either ). At first I was thinking that some of the comments on the pilot were reactionary, but some are starting to ring true. It really does seem as though Norfolk it trying to vacate the bus riders from the more desirable part of town, as Cedar Grove has no obvious strategic value. I hope these people realize that if the want transit to be a part of downtown, the people that ride that transit have to be a part of it too. These foolish decisions of late have made me start to ponder whether Norfolk truly does need a top down change of management, including the mayor. They must be a little too comfortable in their seats if they're making choices like this. At least Burfoot has spoken out about this, perhaps they will come to their senses.

As I wrote on my blog (Avenging Archangel) just after Midnight on Thursday, "The whole thing smells of a scheme to use Wachovia Center construction to flush bus riders out of downtown." A few things here:

1. The plan the City of Norfolk submitted to HRT neither had Route 310 (free Downtown Shuttle) or extended Route 17 (NET) to the new TC.

2. "Downtown access" was supposed to be provided by Routes 6 and 45 along St. Paul's, as they had to come through there.

3. The 310 was only added less than 48 hours prior to the move.

4. Running two paralell shuttles segregates the bus riders (310) from the downtown suits (17).

I've heard Randy Wright speak on how light rail brings different segments of the population together. Where is he on this bus plan?

[lammius]

Yeah the Ballentine site does have the advantage of rail in place to the north (what's the ownership/LOS?), but it suffers from being not tooo far from many, but close to none. In my dream world, when MacArthur Center turns south in a couple more decades, the thing will be demolished, street grid restored, and a rail station at the corner of City Hall and Monticello (with track underground heading out of the CBD).

Perhaps you could send commuter trains or LRT out of Downtown/Harbor Park on the LRT starter line, and construct a flying junction to the line scm mentioned. You'd have stations at VB Blvd, 5 Points, Wards Corner, and as close to NOB as you could get (or another combination of stops to get you an MOS). All of this stuff I'm talking about is very pie-in-the-sky, but who knows, in 30 or more years our transportation priorities may very well change significantly and these types of projects won't seem so crazy.

[scm]

Is the rail line that crosses Virginia Beach Blvd. between Tidewater Drive & Booker T. Washington suitable for HSR?

That is the same line that goes past Harbor Park -- the NS Lamberts Point coal yard feeders. They just don't go anywhere, except to the NS lines to Suffolk and points west. That's the problem with the Harbor Park station. The right heavy rail line (won't be HS anywhere this side of NN -- but then neither are the French TGV lines once they get near a city) goes across through the third crossing, to W'burg, Richmond a/p, parallels 295 to Glen Allen and Ashland, to F'burg, then west through Quantico MCB, across Manassas and up the median of Route 28 to the east side of Dulles -- just like at Charles De Gaulle and Frankfurt. Dulles to Norfolk in 1+30. No more connecting flights. No more three hours to get from the Springfield mixing bowl to Quantico on 95. But on this end, you need a rail collector system to feed the requisite loads to drive the frequency you need on that route. Frankfurt A/P to Stuttgart, they run every 30 min to an hour, and when you get to Stuttgart, you have an extensive rail -- commuter heavy, subway, and streetcar -- system to get you to your destination. No busses involved. We could have the same thing here -- commuter heavy rail from E City, serving Moyock, Great Bridge and Volvo P'way and from Franklin, serving Suffolk, Bowers Hill and Victory Crossing. Light rail from both downtowns -- Norfolk and TC.

Then, have a local line from Norfolk to Richmond, stopping in NN, Oyster Point, W'Burg, Toano, the Richmond A/P, and downtown. Would collect folks from the intermediate points and get them to the HSR stations along that route. Also, a local line (basically an expanded VRE) from Richmond to Washington Union Station would serve the same purpose, and provide access to Alexandria and the District, connecting at F'burg.

I've seen that system -- it is the norm in Germany and France. It increases quality of life. It is a model to emulate, for many reasons.

[scm]

Perhaps you could send commuter trains or LRT out of Downtown/Harbor Park on the LRT starter line, and construct a flying junction to the line scm mentioned.

(what's the ownership/LOS?)

FRA won't let you run light rail and heavy rail on the same lines. But I love that routing -- possibly could do it with diesel multiple unit commuter rail running throughout the day? Platforms at the stations could allow HS mainline traffic to be interspersed - on a siding, loading, while the mainline continues.

NS owns that line that goes past Ward's Corner to the NS.

[vdogg]

Norfolk/HRT spar over who knew what

Norfolk State University leaders said Friday that they were never told about looming deadlines or that construction of the city's starter light-rail line could stop because they had not yet given contractors access to the campus.

This is starting to grow tiresome.

[Glassoul]

(with track underground heading out of the CBD).

That's a joke, right?

---------

SCM, I'm a big fan of H/S rail too, but Amtrak is so poorly run and their only H/S line can't get the $650m from the feds they say they need to upgrade the tracks between Washington and Philly in order to shave an additional 15m on the current NY-D.C transit time. The best HR could hope for, I think, is a 100mph line between Norfolk and Richmond, where Richmond would eventually have H/S access.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Glassoul

[scm]

SCM, I'm a big fan of H/S rail too, but Amtrak is so poorly run...

Probably would require blowing the entire system up and starting all over. That HSR line could be run by a Virginia state authority, in partnership with industry, much like the Florida and Texas systems were planned.

The problem is, that as the VP pointed out just today, the Virginia Rail Enhancement Fund should be re-named the "Norfolk Southern Capital Budget Subsidy Fund". Of the $163M in funding requested in 2008's submissions, over $100M is for NS freight projects alone. The passenger rail requests are 4 of the 14 -- and just a pittance of the $$$ amount.

Until our political leadership leads, we will remain wedded to this idea of single occupancy vehicles as the ne plus ultra of transportation. We have to get rid of the notion that public transportation is to transportation, as public housing is to housing. Until our leaders begin changing opinion, and show how an effective, integrated system, will improve all of our lives, and deliver something better than SOV-driven solutions, we are wedded to spending more money, building roads, to ultimately discover that all we get is more congestion, more pollution, and more money going to dictatorships that hate us.

I am not optomistic we will get leadership before I run out of life to enjoy the results.

[vdogg]

Convenient Transportation or Campus Safety Hazard

Light-rail trains will roll past Norfolk State University in early 2010, making two stops at the edge of campus.

While some students are eager for the convenience and freedom the rail will offer, others are anxious about their safety with the added traffic.

The paradox has some reluctant to jump on board

[vdogg]

This also bears noting:

In the meantime, Old Dominion University officials are anxious to have the trains run to their campus. And officials at several other colleges said they

[rusthebuss]

I think it will be a big hit down there from ODU to the Naval Base. The base is the key to its success along with Vabeach section!

[Henry_Ryto]

I think it will be a big hit down there from ODU to the Naval Base. The base is the key to its success along with Vabeach section!

Be patient. Don't expect anything here in Virginia Beach publicly until at least after the planned Mass Transit Town Hall meetings after the Budget. Then, they still may want to delay until after the November election.