Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[varider]

Interesting point. I've always had a problem with "city limits" signs in the first place. It says to me, "You're no longer in their town. Now, you're in ours." Just what Hampton Roads needs.

In my dream world, there would only be "city limit" signs N of Williamsburg, W of Suffolk, S of Chesapeake, and they would all say "City of Hampton Roads" with "borough limit" signs where the current city limit signs are.

But really, this LR is going to be HUGE in the regionalism factor.

Every city connected by rail is going to automatically become connected. Then when it goes to the Peninsula, it will make it easier for Southside residents to go to venues like the Coliseum and attractions like Busch Gardens and Colonial Wburg, and easier for Peninsula residents to see the Tides or Admirals or attractions like the Aquarium, Zoo,downtown, Town Center, etc.

[ronsmytheiii]

Not everything is going swimingly with LRT, although it could be worse:

Construction of Norfolk's starter light-rail line is running as much as 41 percent over its original budget, and that has angry local leaders demanding an explanation from Hampton Roads Transit, which manages the project. HRT officials said this week they need $38 million to $40 million more to finish the 7.4-mile transit system, which is just over 50 percent complete.

When construction started in October 2007, the budget was $232 million. That figure escalated to $288 million in December 2008.

The latest cost estimate is $326 million to $328 million, HRT President Michael Townes said. Officials said the complexities of building in old, downtown streets as well as project enhancements have driven up the cost.

As a result, light rail's opening date has been pushed back again. Originally set to open next month and later pushed to October 2010, it now will be delayed up to three more months - into the first part of 2011, Townes said.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/norfolk-light-rail-over-budget-opening-delayed-2011

[varider]

Oh my gosh, this is truly HORRIBLE. Everything about it.

I'm less worried about the start date, cost, and more worried about the perception the misfortunes will have in Virginia Beach. Please, please, please don't let this ruin the momentum that has been built throughout the region for mass transit!

Look at the glass half full: The line is still the cheapest per mile this decade.

Dang, I'm nervous now.

I think HRT purposely underestimated the costs in order to recieve fed. and state funding. Now it could potentially hurt the regional expansions. I'm not even going to look at the comments in the morning.

Townes noted that the original design of the light-rail project was "bare bones" to meet stringent criteria for federal money. He said the newest budget is close to the price tag HRT estimated several years ago before slashing more than $100 million in a "value engineering" exercise to reduce costs

I wonder what has been added?

edit:What do they mean "several aspects of the project have been enhanced"???? Why on Earth would you enhance passenger stations, and park and ride lots if you cannot afford to? And from what I've seen, they haven't enhanced ANYTHING! A silver chain link fence? Enhancement my _______! I'm very upset about this. The project seems to be almost complete! There are electrical substations constructed, rail in place from Newtown to Ingelside, catenary poles up, etc. How could this happen so late in the game? SMH.

Edited December 19, 2009 by varider

[urbanlife]

it comes from underbidding by not including "non essentials" in the cost of the construction, which is why it is so common for major projects to run over on costs...also to add to this, there is the issue of the nature, sometimes there are issues with the ground and bridges and such that could not be seen before construction which will also add to the costs.

[Glassoul]

EVERYONE except the kool-aid drinkers knew the numbers were complete BS when they announced the original cost. However, I thought I was being generous before, but HRT's complete incompetence thus far has even surprised me. I thought 12 months would be the maximum delay, now we're talking 18+ months... that's beyond pathetic for a $250M capital project. And, as I also said over 2 years ago, you guys are in for a rude awakening come annual operational cost time.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Glassoul

[varider]

I just dont want Vrginia Beach to get cold feet later down the road.

Traffic in VB is horrendous and all of the city's plans for the future revolve around the transit line.

[New Name]

Ah don't worry about it Norfolk! This is normal. You're going through the normal phases of The Joys of Public Projects! Your in the "buyers remorse" stage. A couple of conservative anti-growth people will use this as a platform now. But you'll be okay!

[varider]

I don't see how we are approaching Charlotte's cost per mile, when they have 6 more LRVs, two car stations, and more elevated portions.

[vdogg]

Wow. This is really going to become an issue now in Va. Beach. This handed the VBTA exactly the cause they needed, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the light rail petition get enough signatures to become a referendum now. HRT's mishandling of this may have just killed light rail for Va. Beach.

[varider]

If VB doesnt get light rail, Hampton Roads will never be able to compete with the big dogs in terms of attracting employers, retaining "creative class", tourism, sports teams, etc. The city would forever be a grossly congested, populated, suburb.

Norfolk still built LRT cheaper/mile than any city this decade!

[Glassoul]

Norfolk still built LRT cheaper/mile than any city this decade!

You assume this is the last cost increase, a fairly large assumption at this point, no?

[Glassoul]

Wow. This is really going to become an issue now in Va. Beach. This handed the VBTA exactly the cause they needed, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the light rail petition get enough signatures to become a referendum now. HRT's mishandling of this may have just killed light rail for Va. Beach.

Isn't this exactly what I warned would happen years ago? That HRT had absolutely 0 experience running a capital construction program. That they low-balled the bid overall. That any controller with a single active brain cell would have told them that the downtown portion was wayyyyy under budgeted. That there is a complete lack of oversight due to the governance structure of HRT. And that, as a result of this, it would risk killing any long-term plan for expansion or LRT. And why shouldn't it? If this is level of execution you can expect, why should tax payers, you know the ones paying for this, just suck it up as a part of the 'wonderful world of government projects'?

And people want the local cities to merge/share more services? Look at the two trans-regional services, HRT & SPSA. Not exactly making a strong case for it, are they?

I feel like Telmnstr on the housing bubble...

Edited December 19, 2009 by Glassoul

[ronsmytheiii]

Isn't this exactly what I warned would happen years ago? That HRT had absolutely 0 experience running a capital construction program. That they low-balled the bid overall. That any controller with a single active brain cell would have told them that the downtown portion was wayyyyy under budgeted. That there is a complete lack of oversight due to the governance structure of HRT. And that, as a result of this, it would risk killing any long-term plan for expansion or LRT. And why shouldn't it? If this is level of execution you can expect, why should tax payers, you know the ones paying for this, just suck it up as a part of the 'wonderful world of government projects'?

And people want the local cities to merge/share more services? Look at the two trans-regional services, HRT & SPSA. Not exactly making a strong case for it, are they?

I feel like Telmnstr on the housing bubble...

In HRT's defense, they were later required to change the line to accommodate a possible extension to Virginia Beach, which added cost and time. Also don't forget about the changes to the Norfolk State Station due to "security issues" as well as the perimeter fense requested near Newtown. Also, the discovery of asbestos in Kirn as well as the nor'easter did not help things. To lay fault entirely at HRT's feet is simply finger pointing, and now with experience the VB line should be much more closer to fiscal reality and smarter in construction.

[ronsmytheiii]

[Glassoul]

In HRT's defense, they were later required to change the line to accommodate a possible extension to Virginia Beach, which added cost and time. Also don't forget about the changes to the Norfolk State Station due to "security issues" as well as the perimeter fense requested near Newtown. Also, the discovery of asbestos in Kirn as well as the nor'easter did not help things. To lay fault entirely at HRT's feet is simply finger pointing, and now with experience the VB line should be much more closer to fiscal reality and smarter in construction.

None of those changes would result in a $100,000,000 increase in construction costs. Every major construction project has weather issues. None of it was unforeseeable...

Buddy: A large institutional office building constructed in the 1960's. Hmm... maybe we should check first to see if it has asbestos before we complete the budget?

HRT Project Manager: You know, Buddy, I think based on that information alone we're going to just work on the assumption that it doesn't have asbestos...

Buddy: Why don't we check first, it would take what, 6 hours for two guys to check the building records and perform a quick physical inspection?

HRT Project Manager: No, no need to. I feel pretty confident...

I work for a company with average annual capital outlay of one billion USD, 75% of which is construction related. Do we suffer schedule setbacks due to weather? Yes. Do we suffer cost overruns? Yes. Most of what we do around our capital spending has never been done before anywhere in the world (or if it has, it is proprietary technology), and so is it therefore acceptable to make excuses? No.If this type of thing went on here, our owners would be irate, leadership/mgmt of the project would be shown the door, and the project would be under very tight scrutiny to prevent further cost/time slippage.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Glassoul

[varider]

I want to know what "enhancements" have beeen made.

How has the system chaged from "bare bones" to "enhanced"

[ronsmytheiii]

None of those changes would result in a $100,000,000 increase in construction costs. Every major construction project has weather issues. None of it was unforeseeable...

Buddy: A large institutional office building constructed in the 1960's. Hmm... maybe we should check first to see if it has asbestos before we complete the budget?

HRT Project Manager: You know, Buddy, I think based on that information alone we're going to just work on the assumption that it doesn't have asbestos...

Buddy: Why don't we check first, it would take what, 6 hours for two guys to check the building records and perform a quick physical inspection?

HRT Project Manager: No, no need to. I feel pretty confident...

The changes

Do some frickin research before you type, they knew there was asbestos, just not how much! I am so sick of people charging corruption when they dont have a clue about engineering or organizational procedure!

The cost of razing Kirn rose from $926,000 to $1.5 million over the past several months because the building contained far more asbestos than originally thought.

http://www.gohrt.com/pressroom/?p=532

[Henry_Ryto]

I agree on the VBTA just having been handed The Mother Of All Christmas Presents. (Then, those idiots will probably fumble it....) The real problem here is the political impact on the Virginia Beach extension. Note that Wally Erb hasn't even posted on his blog since December 4; the opposition had been kicked to the wall.

In order to save the Virginia Beach extension, the TDCHR Executive Committee now has to act decisively and forcefully at their emergency meeting on Wednesday.

[varider]

I pray that VB Council doesn't go into a meeting on Tuesday and say,"YOU know what.. We don't want to have anything to do with this light rail. DIscontinue the study."

I pray that VB Council doesn't go into a meeting on Tuesday and say,"YOU know what.. We don't want to have anything to do with this light rail. DIscontinue the study."

[Henry_Ryto]

I pray that VB Council doesn't go into a meeting on Tuesday and say,"YOU know what.. We don't want to have anything to do with this light rail. DIscontinue the study."

I pray that VB Council doesn't go into a meeting on Tuesday and say,"YOU know what.. We don't want to have anything to do with this light rail. DIscontinue the study."

Uh...Council is in holiday recess until January 5.

[varider]

You know,

the more I think about it.. the less the cost overruns + delay seem to be a huge deal.

It happens in every city and is just the way government + transit systems like to operate.

I can't see a $40M hike in costs of Norfolk LR crushing our hopes for LR in VB.

I think HRT, Councilmen Wood [VB] + Wright [N], James Tascano [hrT] + Sessoms, etc. need to press the fact that although it's unfortunate, the whole region can learn from the "mistakes and mishaps," and now future expansions should run smoother, since HRT has had practice in building and eventually operating light rail transit. I just can't see them not getting it. Without LR.. New town, Pembroke, Resort Area, Comp. Plan,etc. will not be possible. The city is so crowded and traffic is horrible. You feel like your in a big city when driving around Pembroke during rush hour. VB NEEDS LRT!

[Glassoul]

Do some frickin research before you type, they knew there was asbestos, just not how much! I am so sick of people charging corruption when they dont have a clue about engineering or organizational procedure!

http://www.gohrt.com/pressroom/?p=532

Did you even read my post? Did I say anything about corruption? I said incompetence, and yes that would still include the Kirn Library asbestos removal. Asbestos removal wasn't developed yesterday. No clue about engineering or organizational procedure? Lol, watch where you make personal accusations. Suffice to say I am probably as qualified as anyone on this forum to talk about project mgmt.

Anyway, for argument's sake, we'll imagine that Kirn had walls of made of lead and there was just no way to properly determine the amount of asbestos in the building. You've accounted for $600,000 of $100,000,000. You're 0.6% of the way there. Next item...

[Glassoul]

You know,

the more I think about it.. the less the cost overruns + delay seem to be a huge deal.

It happens in every city and is just the way government + transit systems like to operate.

I can't see a $40M hike in costs of Norfolk LR crushing our hopes for LR in VB.

Except that it's much closer to $100M, not $40M. There was always going to be an extremely highly skeptical public about the project, and as you've indicated, those skeptics now have plenty of fuel. They will push for a delay to any action and adopt a 'wait and see' approach. They'll be able to argue their case based on the Norfolk ridership #s & the operational cost side.

From an LRT proponent standpoint, I would advocate dismissing most of those involved in the project mgmt and implement a new capital project mgmt structure (emphasis on controls), to help restore public confidence. I would emphasize the cost/mile as still being among the lowest in country, and talk up expansion to not VB, but also Portsmouth and Chesapeake, and eventually the Pennisula.

[varider]

A promise from Norfolk and HRT of a quick extension to the Naval Station after the TC-Oceanfront line, and I don't see anything stopping this project.

Just my opinion.

[ronsmytheiii]

Did you even read my post? Did I say anything about corruption? I said incompetence, and yes that would still include the Kirn Library asbestos removal. Asbestos removal wasn't developed yesterday. No clue about engineering or organizational procedure? Lol, watch where you make personal accusations. Suffice to say I am probably as qualified as anyone on this forum to talk about project mgmt.

Anyway, for argument's sake, we'll imagine that Kirn had walls of made of lead and there was just no way to properly determine the amount of asbestos in the building. You've accounted for $600,000 of $100,000,000. You're 0.6% of the way there. Next item...

Sir, I have been in engineering school for four years. I hang out with professional engineers all the time, and have been gifted with the insight into their profession. They do the best with parameters and information given. The information about asbestos from city records was bad, the city streets and utilities go back centuries and were not documented. The piling numbers were bad. All this information added money and time. Not to mention the changes to station location, additions to allow extension, and proffers to the local area added afterwords. Most of the cost is associated with bad information input, which happens with all projects (see Saturn V, Boeing 747, ect) The truth of the matter is that the engineers did their best to overcome these issues, which added cost. They were working in the unknown, breaking ground. Building infrastructure is not like buying a TV, when you make something from nothing. You base what it will cost off of the information given, nothing is incompetant with that.