North Carolina Biotech Research Campus

[soccer1guy_99]

It is interesting to me that the proximity of this Park to Charlotte has become an issue in this board. When RTP was built in the 50's and 60's I believe I-40 was not even proposed to stretch beyond I-85 in Greensboro. It was not until much more recently that I-40 was finished. The commute from RTP to Raleigh is not quick and easy. I can tell from being caught in this traffic, and from my roommate working in RTP that the drive takes at least 30 minutes in the evening. RTP has succeeded despite these factors. Obviously, people working in these facilities need space, which is only available in less developed areas. An interesting note I learned in a geology class, is that RTP was put where it is partly because the land had such little value. It sits over a rock formation that makes it hard to get ground water. Anyways, I think in perspective the two facilities are similar in their relation to an urban environment. In fact, the NCRC may have an edge in that it is close to a well-developed town, which RTP is not.

[BobbyRobert]

I will repost the above. There was a commissioned study on the potential of this place in part to justify the investment that Cabarrus and Kannapolis is making in the area. It estimates that 37,450 jobs. I don't think anyone here, unless they want to give us something other than opinion has much to counter this study.

From the NCRC Economic Impact Report (page 3)

Based on interviews with key individuals associated with the NCRC, the buildout schedule and construction data, other biotechnology centers, and secondary data on square-feet-per-job from a national survey of buildings, the project team was able to construct a table of direct impacts for the NCRC.

Sounds like "if you build it they will come" to me. I truely admire what Murdock is doing but accepting his projections (of total square footage) and translating that to a total number of workers in 2032 is a mighty big leap of faith.

[uptownliving]

From the NCRC Economic Impact Report (page 3)

Sounds like "if you build it they will come" to me. I truely admire what Murdock is doing but accepting his projections (of total square footage) and translating that to a total number of workers in 2032 is a mighty big leap of faith.

Murdoch didn't write this report, nor did he pay for it. It was done by Market St out of Atlanta which is an independent firm and paid for by NorthEast Medical Center and the NC Biotechnology Center (based in RTP)

The report stated a high uncertainty with the 30,000 job number in 2032, however they felt fairly confident of the 4,692 jobs number by 2013.

It is not just Murdoch who is doing this...Duke University has signed on to run the entire campus. Do you think Duke would have signed on if they felt this thing was going to be a failure? Duke is not a name I associate with failure (unless you are talking about football)

Failure is certainly a possibility, but at this point I would say success is more likely. When institutions such as Duke, UNC, NC State, UNC-Charlotte, etc. all stamp their name on this project, there must be something good going on, or else they would not be here.

[monsoon]

hmmm. We all agree that the transportation forecasting models that CATS uses are likely underestimating ridership when the line opens next year but suddenly we are taking reports (pitched to the policy audience) which forecast job growth out to 2032 at face value without any sort of critical analysis? Its tough to forecast the future, particularly when you are pitching your study to a group of politicians who you are going to ask for money.

This study came from North Carolina Biotechnology Center which is based in RTP, not Cabarrus county, and this group was not asking for any money. CATS is irrelevant to this conversation as they don't even do growth forecasting.

[BobbyRobert]

This study came from North Carolina Biotechnology Center which is based in RTP, not Cabarrus county, and this group was not asking for any money. CATS is irrelevant to this conversation as they don't even do growth forecasting.

I apologize for the confusing mention of the CATS model. I was attempting to use it as an analogy to illustrate that all of us here tend to be skeptical of future looking models.

I also did not intend to imply that the report was written by Murdock or anyone in Cabarrus county. The report was however partially funded by Northeast Medical Center (who will certainly (and rightfully) benefit from the development of the campus)

The NC Biotechnology Center has a mission to:

"to provide long-term economic and societal benefits to North Carolina through support of biotechnology research, business and education statewide." http://www.ncbiotech.org/about_us/mission_...oals/index.html

I am not questioning the motivations of the organization, I just want to point out that their goal is to promote biotech as an economic development strategy.

It is not just Murdoch who is doing this...Duke University has signed on to run the entire campus. Do you think Duke would have signed on if they felt this thing was going to be a failure? Duke is not a name I associate with failure (unless you are talking about football)

Failure is certainly a possibility, but at this point I would say success is more likely. When institutions such as Duke, UNC, NC State, UNC-Charlotte, etc. all stamp their name on this project, there must be something good going on, or else they would not be here.

I agree that there are lots of smart folks who are enthusiastic about this project and that is a positive sign. However, we would all be naive to think that strong institutions were immune to political pressures. Don't forget, some very well respected institutions (UNC CH) were producing very similar economic impact reports for the Global Transpark back in the early 1990s. I am NOT comparing the research campus to the transpark, just suggesting that we should not always accept the opinions of academic experts at face value.

[lukedog]

Yes, it is hype and they are comparing themselves to RTP, but they don't say they are better then RTP, nor do they say they are a "biotech hub" which is what I was talking about earlier. It is looked at as a node to the RTP biotech hub, and that is what NCRC has promoted themselves as. They are promoting themselves as part of the NC Biotech Corridor (they do this on the same webpage you quoted from) and they recognize RTP as the center of the NC Biotech Corridor.

So if you don't think that NCRC can bring the 5,000 technology jobs, how many jobs do you think they can realistically attract?

Interesting point...and I also think it is interesting that at least some of those in here (don't get offended if this isn't you) who are so sure this project will fail (read through all the posts) are in some way related to the Raleigh/Durham/NC State/Duke area. Pointing out the obvious, nobody knows if this will be successful or a failure- but to say it will be a failure with all of the time, money, effort, work, resources put into this is at the least premature...IMO.

[Miesian Corners]

^I don't think any of us that are not jumping up and down for the NCRP are saying it will be an outright failure; I think we're saying it's not going to be the boon to the local economy that so many in local government and Mr Murdoch say that it is.

I'm speaking for no one else but myself here, but I think that it will end up much like University Research Park in Charlotte--It will be an office park. It will have jobs that could be most anywhere. And although they will probably pay more than Pillowtex jobs, total build-out employment (reaching former Pillowtex numbers) is more than likely 15 to 20 years away.

[AuLukey]

It amazes me that a project purely designed to help Kannapolis (as well as Murdock's real estate) become the prospering town (not suburb) it once was in the glory days of the Mills, has actually turned into a Charlotte metro vs. Triangle debate. I don't think we're discussing the mere idea that NCRC will pull jobs from RTP, but that it will bring new growth inward towards North Carolina in general. As was said before, on a national scale, a two hour drive is nothing compared to the drive some encounter in New England trying to get to work. Thus, Kannapolis's distance from Charlotte or Raleigh is irrelevant to most. A lot of people don't always want to live in a metro. You can't judge a person's motives if they aren't even here yet.

I honestly think the areas that will benefit the most from this will be the Triad and Salisbury, rather than Charlotte or the Triangle, as they are nearly central to both biotech "hubs." Commerce involved with the biotech industry spans a two hour drive along 85. Seems something in between could catch on as well.

The mere fact that two "million dollar" neighborhoods have been announced shows some faith in the outcome of this project (I'm aware one is a Murdock project.) We should not be doubting its success and praising RTP as the almighty but rather looking at ways that each could work off of each other to help our state.

As to whether or not this project stimulates K-nap's economy is already evident, construction and demolition for this project alone has brought in jobs, UNCC, UNC, NSCU, Duke all have offices either in place or planned and thus, more jobs.

The work force in Knap is obviously not the biotech type, this is evident and does not need to be pointed out, but there have been a lot of companies all over the country in the past that have moved into areas with unskilled (in that field) workforces and still been successful. If you build it...

[DanRNC]

They generate that number by equating NCRC to the Scripps Research Institute in California.

Thats not even a fair analogy considering Scripps is one of the most formidable research instituttions in the country (if not world) flanked by UCSD, Salk Institute, the Ludwig Institute, etc. Plus its San Diego/LaJolla, enough said. A better comparison would be the Van Andel research institute in Grand Rapids, PTRP or Centennial Campus at NCSU.

[monsoon]

I'm speaking for no one else but myself here, but I think that it will end up much like University Research Park in Charlotte--It will be an office park. It will have jobs that could be most anywhere. And although they will probably pay more than Pillowtex jobs, total build-out employment (reaching former Pillowtex numbers) is more than likely 15 to 20 years away.

URP was never anything more than an office park. People often make the mistake of comparing it to a failed attempt to produce a RTP in Charlotte, but what is missed is URP never took the steps to get the same tax advantages that businesses in RTP get that were granted by the state. URP always has been and always will be just an office park.

URP never had a benefactor like Rupert Murdoch come in and offer a Billion dollars to start a new industry.

[BobbyRobert]

After rereading my original post on this topic it is clear that my clumsy writing was not able to get its point across effectively (mea culpa). I never intended to suggest that the success of the Kannapolis project would be at the expense of the Triangle, I merely wanted to illustrate that this campus faces a great deal of competition from biotech clusters elsewhere. Many of these facilities have similar amounts of VC available, most are closer to airports and large concentrations of urban amenities, and some are much closer to established research universities. I used RTP as a comparison simply because it is the cluster that I am most familiar with (not because I was trying to create any sort of Charlotte-Raleigh competition).

I hope to see the NCBRC succeed, but I think we should at least acknowledge the fact that competition for this type of economic development is fierce and this site faces some (not insurmountable) challenges.

If portions of my original post were incorrect I would honestly like to discuss those problems, there is a great deal of expertise on this site and I am here to learn from that.

[DanRNC]

URP never had a benefactor like Rupert Murdoch come in and offer a Billion dollars to start a new industry.

Its David Murdock, not Rupert Murdoch (Australian media mogel).

[monsoon]

Ahh thanks for the correction.

[Neo]

The local NPR station (WFAE) had a discussion about this new biotech campus yesterday on the show "Charlotte Talks."

If you are interested in listening you can download the podcast of the show here:

http://66.225.205.104/CT20061121.mp3

[voyager12]

I caught the original broadcast and learned a lot. The fact that UNC Chapel Hill, Duke, and NC State are all establishing satellite labs gives this venture credibility and educational gravitas ( I love that word)

[ChiefJoJo]

Ral N&O article about taxpayer expenses for the campus.

[DanRNC]

Mark my words-this will become the taxpayers burden with Murdock unloading the real estate. The state ends up paying $600 million for 3 buildings. What a deal they got roped into.

[lukedog]

Mark my words-this will become the taxpayers burden with Murdock unloading the real estate. The state ends up paying $600 million for 3 buildings. What a deal they got roped into.

Wow...are you seeing something I'm not? Where did you hear/read that the state would pay $600 million for 3 buildings. I guess that is your opinion (Murdock will unload real estate) which you are entitled to...but it doesn't make since to me...I don't understand why you would think that. Yes, Murdock is asking for $29 million a year for the campus (for equipment and salaries) but that money won't be given every year unless Murdock is pitching in his 1 billion dollars throughout those same years...a fair match I think. Look out Duke fans- this campus might become world renown and get even more credit and attention than current North Carolina leaders in research and technology.

This is not a project that will be completed in the next few years....rather, this is going to be completed over the next 20 years. Within that time frame Murdock will have spent hundreds of millions and up to a billion if he lives that long. Why in the world would he want to abandon this project anytime soon when it has so much promise? It seems like the people from UNC and NC State (see article from Chief JOJO above) are excited about this project...they like the idea of unmatched equipment and resources that will be available here. I do agree with one thing...this is a great deal North Carolina got roped into..

[monsoon]

Ahh, I think this lays to rest one of the reasons given why this venture will fail.... the lack of participation of "name brand" schools. It would seem they can't wait to get involved as fast as possible. Good news for this project.

I guess it does help that Erskine Bowles is basically a Charlotte native.

[DanRNC]

When I heard about this deal and knowing Murdock's past history in this area, I thought a surprise might be coming and it has. Apparently he will not invest the money in the campus unless the county goes into tens of millions of debt, (maybe $100M or more) to pay for infrastructure improvements in the area that he says are needed to make the project viable. Of course these improvements also make his property more valuable regardless if he decideds to complete the project or not. What better way to get an investment in property to pay off. Buy it after it has gone bankrupt and then make promises about it so millions of dollars of public money is spent in improvements on it.

I guess more is to come but I hope the Cabarrus commisioners, the Kannapolis city council, and the state of NC do their homework on this deal or the public could be left holding the bag while Murdoch walks away with millions. Sounds like a re-run to me.

Murdock is at it again. Sources tell me no tenants have been found except for Biomarker Group and Pelican (both companies that have ties to LabCorp and Murdock). LabCorp's CEO is on the Castle and Cooke board btw.

Murdock now wants $160 million

[DanRNC]

Murdock has also lowered the amount of guaranteed investment on his end from over $1 billion to $350 million.

[voyager12]

I hope something can be worked out. There has been so much hype about this campus. I really hope the end product is successful. Kannapolis needs a second chance. Unfortunately all of this back and forth between Murdock and Cabarrus and KP officials reminds me of the never ending barely inching along saga called "Noisette" in North Charleston. The former Naval Base is supposed to become a thriving "mixed use" city. All that has been produced in almost a decade is about one block of restored buildings. Everything else has involved screaming matches between Noisette and North Charleston City Council about trying to decide who is to blame for the delay and the failures. I hope the Biotech campus can avoid a similar fate.

[AuLukey]

Well, as far as related development, the Kellswater Bridge development which was originally a $200 million residential and commercial project being build by the future Kannapolis parkway has now become a $400 million project. The company building the complex has also committed to help pay for the construction of Kannapolis Pkwy. This is pretty much a 180 from Murdock's scheme as they are willing to help the city, rather than making them pay large amounts of money to land the investment. This is another good sign for Kannapolis that good things are still to come.

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[unc02grad]

The $350 million is the total infrastructure cost, of which $160 million could potentially be bonds. The total Campus cost is $1.5 billion.

[dubone]

Okay, this is truly starting to get scary.

I admit that I thought the early critics of this were Chicken Littles, but the costs of this to the public are skyrocketing, while the risk of failure seems to be growing.

I don't know what to think of this, but I guess if it fails, it will have more usable buildings than the mill.