Norfolk Stores and Retail and Resturants

[BFG]

1 hour ago, 23320 said:

If I had to guess - these stores have probably been suffering for awhile and are leaving as leases expire and with the expectation that Nordstrom will be exiting. There’s not much management can do about Nordstrom’s exit since the space is owned by the city. 

The mall itself doesn’t mesh with the demographic that is moving into Downtown. They are going to have to change their store mix to appeal to millennials. Everyone here seems to like the idea of Target coming in & I could see one of their new, smaller formats but not a Super Target - no where near enough population & traffic Downtown. 

It’s going to suck for the mall for awhile but this is an opportunity to get the mall to better align with what’s going on Downtown. Hopefully there’s a mix of offices, apartments, retail, and experiences in its future. 

This makes perfect sense. The crowd that Norfolk wooed 20 years ago has changed; it's now a younger demographic, and hopefully the city recognizes that without alienating the older generation. I've been advocating for a smaller Target for years. Other cities (mostly college towns but also cities roughly the size of Norfolk) seem to do pretty well with them. However, I'd rather see it at the old Farm Fresh site on Boush and Tazwell. That's the perfect size, and would give Norfolk both a grocery and retail option.  If MacArthur goes with an open concept, they definitely need a permanent farmer's and seafood market like you'd see in Seattle.

See below...that's Hollywood and Highland Mall in L.A. It opened a couple years after MacArthur, and now I wonder what if they had built it like that all along. I think you could keep a lot of the "shell" of MacArthur, but open it up similar to H&H. This is what I envision for MacArthur in the future. As busy as downtown has become, I think this would truly create a busy city.

[HRVA]

Nordstrom to leave MacArthur Center mall - Virginian Pilot

The moment we have all been dreading…

[BFG]

So........anyone think that 10-year plan just got accelerated by quite a few years? Norfolk can't afford to have two dead malls, even with the outlets, so they'd better act fast.

[zeppelin14]

A 3 story Target with a large grocery section would be ideal for downtown. It's the grocery component that downtown has needed for the past 8 years. MacArthur needs to loose the "premium" mall label and just put in a Target.

[Cjnfkvb]

17 hours ago, jeffconn said:

There was supposed to be a shopping center in Lambert's Point, next to the railroad tracks, but that seems to have just stopped cold.

I have some friends that live in that aria. They have plenty of restraunts nearby(ODU,NOCO), however, thay can definantly use more stores.

[Cjnfkvb]

17 hours ago, BFG said:

This makes perfect sense. The crowd that Norfolk wooed 20 years ago has changed; it's now a younger demographic, and hopefully the city recognizes that without alienating the older generation. I've been advocating for a smaller Target for years. Other cities (mostly college towns but also cities roughly the size of Norfolk) seem to do pretty well with them. However, I'd rather see it at the old Farm Fresh site on Boush and Tazwell. That's the perfect size, and would give Norfolk both a grocery and retail option.  If MacArthur goes with an open concept, they definitely need a permanent farmer's and seafood market like you'd see in Seattle.

See below...that's Hollywood and Highland Mall in L.A. It opened a couple years after MacArthur, and now I wonder what if they had built it like that all along. I think you could keep a lot of the "shell" of MacArthur, but open it up similar to H&H. This is what I envision for MacArthur in the future. As busy as downtown has become, I think this would truly create a busy city.

I like it, but I think we shouldent stop there. This can be a good chance to boost the city's skyline. I hate to mention any drawbacks to MacArthur center, as I think it is a well thought out mall, and I am surprised that its loosing so much stores, but it does take up about a third of downtowns space, or more. A few apartment buildings, an office building, and maby a high rise hotel on top, can spruce up things even more.(not talking about the dinky stuff they are planning for the third anchor lot). It would also be nice if they can add some sort of major entertainment venue (The origional plans for the mall called for an indoor amusement park,  but that was scrapped.)

Edited January 23, 2019 by Cjnfkvb

[urbanvb]

5 hours ago, BFG said:

So........anyone think that 10-year plan just got accelerated by quite a few years? Norfolk can't afford to have two dead malls, even with the outlets, so they'd better act fast.

I was thinking the same thing. Since the city owns the land hopefully they’ll  work together. I’d hate to see an empty Nordstrom store set empty for years i.e. Lord and Taylor store at Lynnhaven. They could reuse the space much like Military Circle did for the mortgage company though really a much more cohesive overhaul for the center would be better than piece meal. I’d agree a Target store would seem to be ideal. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by urbanvb

[Richmonopoly]

You guys are trending on my Twitter.  

 

I hope RVA’s Nordstrom will remains in good standing, though, I am aware that many box retailers are struggling.  

 

I also hope that Norfolk (and Richmond for that matter) can lure a big-Box Target.  I am one of those millennials who would much rather shop at a reasonably priced home-goods store than a luxury retailer.  

[Norfolk757Kid]

Crazy idea, knock it down and build Norfolk's version of Central Park where it stood. Then see what that does for the real estate surrounding it. 

[Si7i]

Macarther Center still has failed to innovate or move with the times. I believe the mall has very bad management thinking that that location alone would carry the mall. I knew the mall had bad management when they started to lose food court options and in response rushed to fill spaces with subpar offerings (like that chicken place that used to be in the corner by the movie theater) either it's being ran into the ground dilibretly or someone doesn't know how to do their job. Not to mention the malls awful design and waste of space when it comes to street presence and being  inviting.  Declining retail sales is a cop out & everyone knows it.

Lynnhaven got rid of its second story for a reason focusing on quality over quantity and added stores that draw people with entertainment such as Dave and busters etc. Pembroke even redesigned itself somewhat. Mac mall management has just been milking it, what kind of upgrades have been put into the mall since it's been opened? MAC mall used to have jeepers, animal jungle stuff that drew people. Their management will not change just being realistic Mac mall is gonna slide into a dangerous downward pattern then the city will get involved making things worse. I really want star wood to prove me wrong. I've been all over the country and the best managed malls that I've seen were all run by Simon (the people that built the outlet mall). 

Here I am ranting again 

 

[BFG]

5 hours ago, Cjnfkvb said:

I like it, but I think we shouldent stop there. This can be a good chance to boost the city's skyline. I hate to mention any drawbacks to MacArthur center, as I think it is a well thought out mall, and I am surprised that its loosing so much stores, but it does take up about a third of downtowns space, or more. A few apartment buildings, an office building, and maby a high rise hotel on top, can spruce up things even more.(not talking about the dinky stuff they are planning for the third anchor lot). It would also be nice if they can add some sort of major entertainment venue (The origional plans for the mall called for an indoor amusement park,  but that was scrapped.)

39 minutes ago, Si7i said:

Macarther Center still has failed to innovate or move with the times. I believe the mall has very bad management thinking that that location alone would carry the mall. I knew the mall had bad management when they started to lose food court options and in response rushed to fill spaces with subpar offerings (like that chicken place that used to be in the corner by the movie theater) either it's being ran into the ground dilibretly or someone doesn't know how to do their job. Not to mention the malls awful design and waste of space when it comes to street presence and being  inviting.  Declining retail sales is a cop out & everyone knows it.

I agree with both of these comments. Every time I see an aerial shot of downtown, I'm amazed by just how many potential city blocks MacArthur takes up. I know the exposed garages take away the shot at a fuller skyline, but MacArthur's footprint doesn't help. I think a more versatile design would've worked, considering online shopping was a thing in the mid-to-late-90s. Virginia Beach was planning Town Center at the same time, so Norfolk could've done something similar, with smaller anchor stores on the ground floor of whatever tower.

Back to present day, if you're mixing retail and residential, there's no reason a potential tower shouldn't be at least 20 stories, given that prime location. I'd say 30, but this is Norfolk. :p

[Urbanlooker]

10 hours ago, Si7i said:

Macarther Center still has failed to innovate or move with the times. I believe the mall has very bad management thinking that that location alone would carry the mall. I knew the mall had bad management when they started to lose food court options and in response rushed to fill spaces with subpar offerings (like that chicken place that used to be in the corner by the movie theater) either it's being ran into the ground dilibretly or someone doesn't know how to do their job. Not to mention the malls awful design and waste of space when it comes to street presence and being  inviting.  Declining retail sales is a cop out & everyone knows it.

Lynnhaven got rid of its second story for a reason focusing on quality over quantity and added stores that draw people with entertainment such as Dave and busters etc. Pembroke even redesigned itself somewhat. Mac mall management has just been milking it, what kind of upgrades have been put into the mall since it's been opened? MAC mall used to have jeepers, animal jungle stuff that drew people. Their management will not change just being realistic Mac mall is gonna slide into a dangerous downward pattern then the city will get involved making things worse. I really want star wood to prove me wrong. I've been all over the country and the best managed malls that I've seen were all run by Simon (the people that built the outlet mall). 

Here I am ranting again 

 

I agree with most of what you're saying if the mall and more entertainment options it would be better off and that the better management as far as malls go tend to be Simon ran malls. That being big box malls are becoming a thing of the past if it's not mixed use with entertainment options it will probably fail eventually. With the location though I DO NOT want to see the samething that is happening with Military happen with MacArthur if it's really going down then redo the whole thing open it up to the streets or tear it down and bring back the street grid and make the land ready for mixed use towers. The whole area could still be a shopping destination but with towers above and destination retailers on the bottom floors.

[vaceltic]

It’s the 20 year mark. That’s the typical life span of retail developments before some significant investment is needed to refresh the look, offerings, or start all over.  Think waterside, pembroke, lynnhaven, etc.

The problem with MacArthur is the design is too insular to the rest of downtown, a huge mistake when they originally designed it. It was also built when malls were already starting to lose appeal as places to shop. I think they modeled it after a downtown mall in Columbus, OH that was built a few years earlier. It opened in 1989 and closed exactly 20 years later.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_City_Center

I believe the intent for MacArthur was to get more people downtown, not really in consideration of whether it would be financially successful. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by vaceltic

[BFG]

As successful as Mayor Fraim was in revitalizing downtown, he and council shot themselves in the foot by not designing this for the future. 

Again, if you look at Google Maps, you see just how many city blocks could go on that land. I know not many people lived down there in 1999, but if they had built a few towers, with retail on the first floor, and apartments around it, people would’ve moved downtown. It worked for the Town Centers in VB, NN, and Hampton. 

[zeppelin14]

What if Norfolk tore down the MacArthur Mall and built a new arena with the main entrances facing the light rail stop on Monticello and/or the light rail at MacArthur Square? They could keep the parking garages this way too.

Edited January 24, 2019 by zeppelin14

[zeppelin14]

Just using my imagination of how an arena could fit into the MacArthur Mall space. I took the Capital One Arena in Washington D.C. and dropped it into Norfolk. Shrunk it down to a realistic 85% and this is what I got.

[BFG]

I looked over a Google Maps shot of downtown, right before you posted your map. I used the entire Scope/Chrysler Hall block as my basis, and had plenty of room left over. Either way, you could fit an 17,000-seat arena with nearby retail and residential development (think Patriot Place in Foxboro), along with the garage and light rail.

[Willy18]

What do you think about something like this? City Creek Center in Salt Lake City has all the components that we have all been talking about. It was built to look like this meaning this isn't a renovated 90's mall but could be used as a model for what could be in DT Norfolk. 

 

[Cjnfkvb]

55 minutes ago, Willy18 said:

What do you think about something like this? City Creek Center in Salt Lake City has all the components that we have all been talking about. It was built to look like this meaning this isn't a renovated 90's mall but could be used as a model for what could be in DT Norfolk. 

 

Thats kind of looks like what I think they should do. Maby they can even somhow run light rail through it, but I know thats a bit of a stretch. 

[BFG]

1 hour ago, Willy18 said:

What do you think about something like this? City Creek Center in Salt Lake City has all the components that we have all been talking about. It was built to look like this meaning this isn't a renovated 90's mall but could be used as a model for what could be in DT Norfolk. 

 

I think that would be awesome, esp. looking at that last picture. I could see Monticello looking very similar to that, although the left side with TCC, the Norva, and the federal building don't really have much else to develop. However, creating a few city blocks with shops would look great. I think you could even keep the Dillard's, but give the exterior a makeover, then design a complex around that.

[Norfolk757Kid]

What about using some of the space for a downtown campus for ODU or Norfolk State? or an expanded Governor's School?

[carolinaboy]

2 hours ago, Norfolk757Kid said:

What about using some of the space for a downtown campus for ODU or Norfolk State? or an expanded Governor's School?

This is a great idea. Turn some of the existing mall into office, teaching space. I dig it. I hate the idea of tearing down the mall because it's underperforming, takes up too much space, etc. I love the idea of reuse and repurposing it.

[zeppelin14]

Good news out of Norfolk. In addition to two Dirty Buffalo locations in Norfolk, the owner got the green light to franchise across the entire state of Virginia.

ODU Alumnus Russell Gilbert Credits the University’s Marketing Program for Business Success

[BFG]

That's great news for Dirty Buffalo. They have some pretty good wings.

[HRVA]

Saw this on Reddit:

“Upscale market with community feel”: Norfolk to now have downtown grocery option - WTKR

Chesapeake Bay Market will open May 1 at 300 E Main (directly across from the Icon). It is described as an “upscale market with a community feel.” It will be 5,000 SF.