Growth: Southwood

[stjoe]

toolman,

Good info.

I don't accept some of the points.

"Of course, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they did not try to hide it because they thought we might revolt."

I have NO DOUBT St Joe kept this quite. Short of having it as documented fact, I know they hide this from the community. On that alone, I take major issue with this.

The other is that this was not the original plan. It was sold, as was everyone else I know that Merchants Blvd would extend commercial all the way down to the lake. This plan does not do that.

The third issue is, the construction of the apartments supposedly don't meet code to be sold as condos, so I am not sure this hope will bear out.

I hope it all works out well, but I think there are some major points you make that I don't see as accurate.

[TD]

toolman,

Good info.

I don't accept some of the points.

"Of course, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they did not try to hide it because they thought we might revolt."

I have NO DOUBT St Joe kept this quite. Short of having it as documented fact, I know they hide this from the community. On that alone, I take major issue with this.

The other is that this was not the original plan. It was sold, as was everyone else I know that Merchants Blvd would extend commercial all the way down to the lake. This plan does not do that.

The third issue is, the construction of the apartments supposedly don't meet code to be sold as condos, so I am not sure this hope will bear out.

I hope it all works out well, but I think there are some major points you make that I don't see as accurate.

[Florida]

stjoe makes some good points.

Thanks for that information toolman, as always you're a wealth of knowledge.

Where is Glenn!?

[stjoe]

"im pretty sure everyone knows how you feel about this issue st joe. "

Great.

[Rachiroo]

The third issue is, the construction of the apartments supposedly don't meet code to be sold as condos, so I am not sure this hope will bear out.

[Go Gators]

"im pretty sure everyone knows how you feel about this issue st joe. "

Great.

[poonther]

I agree with everything St. Joe has said here. If I had $300-400,000 invested in a home, I would be livid if an apartment community were being built in my backyard. Property values will decrease, and thats not just because of the current housing market.

I also see where St Joe is coming from regarding people taking part in Southwood's amenities without paying for them. This should not continue to happen. If Im not mistaken, the two current complexes arent officially a part of Southwood, thus not entitled (nor do they pay) to Southwood's amenities, yet I know for sure of some people who use them anyway.

Fight away, St. Joe. If I lived there I'd be right with you!

[Florida]

GG, that's sort of an elitist attitude. Property owners should be concerned about land use and zoning changes no matter how much they pay for their property. Don't tell the folks in my neighborhood that rental properties will decrease their property values. A family of five just bought a house on the next block for $400k, the house at the bottom of my block sold less than a year ago for $300k to a family w/kids and one house on my block just listed at at $550K and we are surrounded by rental complexes. I believe the difference isn't in the cost of housing but in the suburban vs. urban mind-set. Nothing is wrong w/either mind-set, but don't blame it on income/cost levels.

Apparently St. Joe did get a revision to their PUD for this change. I'm curious how that formal change slipped past so many people. In that revision they would have been required to go before the P&Z Board and state their intentions and at least some property owners should have notified via mail.

FYI: Code requirements look at condos and apts. as the same use: Multi-family. There may be a way to fight this revision, but since the PUD revision is a done deal, it will be difficult. Also if you can't change their minds, at least you guys need to be there to make sure they do this revision the best and most restrictive way possible. As folks have suggested here, rentals can be constructed and maintained in top-notch condition. It is sad though they won't be doing as much commercial as promised.

Good luck. I've been involved in things like this for years, so if you need any specific suggestions, just let me know.

[Florida]

Florida - do you (or anyone else) have a copy of the original Southwood artist's rendering? The one I vaguely remember is an aerial rendering looking NW from above the area where JPII High School is now. It was very early (probably 2000) when it was done, but that rendering shows something in on this property next to the lake. I was wondering what was shown on there if anyone remembers or has a copy.

[stjoe]

That pic shows commercial all the way down to the lake which is no longer happening.

It also shows row houses/town homes around the lake where the apartments are now going.

This was sold one way and then change.

But my biggest issue was how they tried to keep this quiet and not work WITH the community when they decided to change directions. Lying or withholding the truth shouldn't be the way to go.

The good news....this won't be started without heavy community involvement now.

[Glenn]

stjoe makes some good points.

Thanks for that information toolman, as always you're a wealth of knowledge.

Where is Glenn!?

[Florida]

Celebrated, you're a Southwood resident also, how do you feel about this?

[poonther]

Poonther, you mentioned that anyone living close should have been notified....well I know several people that fall into that category and none of them, or their neighbors, were aware of or notified about any of this.

[Glenn]

Thanks for the info Poonther! We will jump on this info you've provided and I'll let you know what response we get. I assume the 500' notification boundry is from the edge of the property in question in all directions, right? It's not from the center is is? This whole thing gets more convoluted by the minute!

[thetoolman]

Thanks for the info Poonther! We will jump on this info you've provided and I'll let you know what response we get. I assume the 500' notification boundry is from the edge of the property in question in all directions, right? It's not from the center is is? This whole thing gets more convoluted by the minute!

[poonther]

Typically in most cities it is 500 ft from the property boundaries. Maybe for some reason St. Joe didn't have to go through the revision process? If so, whatever loophole they used NOT to go through the process needs to be closed. But I find that hard to believe since I was notified about a small change to an apartment complex close to my home. That change was not nearly as major as what you guys are dealing with.

[SouthwoodResident]

I was at the meeting last night. There were about 250 people, in varying stages of anger, but mostly unhappy with the fact that the Town Center area, which was always represented as retail/restaurant/office development, is being built as a rental apartment community. (All of St. Joe's sales materials depicted the area as townhouses or condominiums.) About 1,000 parking spaces for the 400+ apartments. No green space or recreational amenities within the apartment complex. St. Joe sold the property in mid 2006 to Broad Street Partners, who are the apartment developers. The audience included a significant number of lawyers residing in Southwood, so it's likely this won't happen easily.

The St. Joe project manager said that the sales contract allows BSP to build either condos or rental, and that the original intention was to build condos, but the condo market is slow, so BSP will build apartments that can eventually be sold as condos. A resident pointed out to the St.Joe rep that the BSP site plan specifically says that the apartment firewalls do not comply with code requirements for condos and that the unit can not be sold as condos. The St. Joe rep said he saw that on the site plan and had no response.

Some people seem unhappy with the density, but the density has always been part of the original plan, although the actual density of the project exceeds the maximum density in the DRI. (The DRI says max is 20 units per acre and the apartments are about 27 units per acre.) The City of Tallahassee representatives say that the city granted a variance on the density, but the agenda item says the variance is related to another issue and does not say anything about the residential density variances. No notice was provided directly to Southwood residents.

Although St. Joe has been asked a number of time to explain the reason for the plan to divide to Community Development District (CDD), the response is always to explain the technicalities of how to create a CDD and what a CDD is responsible for, but no one will explain why St. Joe is doing it.

Basically, all of the remaining St. Joe-owned Southwood property is being removed from the Capital Region CDD and being placed into a new CDD, called the Southeastern CDD. None of the notices that were ever published regarding this issue contained the name of "Southwood." The new "Southeastern" CDD actually lies to the north of Southwood. No notice was provided directly to Southwood residents.

The Southwood development has reached a point where residents are beginning to be elected to the Capital Region CDD. Votes are cast by property owners within the CDD. As the developer, St. Joe has owned most of the property and could control the CDD board. By dividing the CDD into two seperate districts, St. Joe will be in total control of the remaining developable part of Southwood in the "Southeastern" CDD, and will be able to abandon the remaining Capital Region CDD, which would become the sole responsibility of the residents.

About one-third of the Southwood development would be transferred into the new CDD. The CDD essentially taxes residents to repay debt incurred to construct the infrastructure, roads, stormwater systems, town center parking lots, etc. The impact of removing about a third of the development from the original CDD is to decrease the number of residential owners required to repay the CDD debt. St. Joe states that there will be no impact because there will be an agreement between the CDDs to require that the debt be shared, but there is no legal requirement that this occur, and St. Joe representations at this point are meaningless. Obviously, there will be increased costs to operate two separate CDDs for the same chunk of land, a cost that will be paid by the residents. There is also a suspicion that another reason to exit the existing CDD is to avoid having to comply with some requirements of the DRI related to town center retail space.

[josefk]

I was at the meeting last night. There were about 250 people, in varying stages of anger, but mostly unhappy with the fact that the Town Center area, which was always represented as retail/restaurant/office development, is being built as a rental apartment community. (All of St. Joe's sales materials depicted the area as townhouses or condominiums.) About 1,000 parking spaces for the 400+ apartments. No green space or recreational amenities within the apartment complex. St. Joe sold the property in mid 2006 to Broad Street Partners, who are the apartment developers. The audience included a significant number of lawyers residing in Southwood, so it's likely this won't happen easily.

The St. Joe project manager said that the sales contract allows BSP to build either condos or rental, and that the original intention was to build condos, but the condo market is slow, so BSP will build apartments that can eventually be sold as condos. A resident pointed out to the St.Joe rep that the BSP site plan specifically says that the apartment firewalls do not comply with code requirements for condos and that the unit can not be sold as condos. The St. Joe rep said he saw that on the site plan and had no response.

Some people seem unhappy with the density, but the density has always been part of the original plan, although the actual density of the project exceeds the maximum density in the DRI. (The DRI says max is 20 units per acre and the apartments are about 27 units per acre.) The City of Tallahassee representatives say that the city granted a variance on the density, but the agenda item says the variance is related to another issue and does not say anything about the residential density variances. No notice was provided directly to Southwood residents.

Although St. Joe has been asked a number of time to explain the reason for the plan to divide to Community Development District (CDD), the response is always to explain the technicalities of how to create a CDD and what a CDD is responsible for, but no one will explain why St. Joe is doing it.

Basically, all of the remaining St. Joe-owned Southwood property is being removed from the Capital Region CDD and being placed into a new CDD, called the Southeastern CDD. None of the notices that were ever published regarding this issue contained the name of "Southwood." The new "Southeastern" CDD actually lies to the north of Southwood. No notice was provided directly to Southwood residents.

The Southwood development has reached a point where residents are beginning to be elected to the Capital Region CDD. Votes are cast by property owners within the CDD. As the developer, St. Joe has owned most of the property and could control the CDD board. By dividing the CDD into two seperate districts, St. Joe will be in total control of the remaining developable part of Southwood in the "Southeastern" CDD, and will be able to abandon the remaining Capital Region CDD, which would become the sole responsibility of the residents.

About one-third of the Southwood development would be transferred into the new CDD. The CDD essentially taxes residents to repay debt incurred to construct the infrastructure, roads, stormwater systems, town center parking lots, etc. The impact of removing about a third of the development from the original CDD is to decrease the number of residential owners required to repay the CDD debt. St. Joe states that there will be no impact because there will be an agreement between the CDDs to require that the debt be shared, but there is no legal requirement that this occur, and St. Joe representations at this point are meaningless. Obviously, there will be increased costs to operate two separate CDDs for the same chunk of land, a cost that will be paid by the residents. There is also a suspicion that another reason to exit the existing CDD is to avoid having to comply with some requirements of the DRI related to town center retail space.

[celebrated]

Celebrated, you're a Southwood resident also, how do you feel about this?

[DaiDreamer5]

Wow...

That is a rather...underhanded thing to do.

I guess what they are trying to do is keep control of their undeveloped areas away from thier residents. That way the can develop it with regard to any market changes. I suppose that is the way business works but they should have least given thier current residents notice.

[Florida]

I am more upset about the loss of retail than I am about having apartments so I am leaving it to those who are more informed to fight St. Joe/BSP on this one.

[Glenn]

^ If the St Joe Co. had communicated with all the residents about everything going on there wouldn't be as much anger and feelings of deceit. It appears as if St Joe went out of their way to keep this quiet from the residents until everything was finalized. I know 5 people that live well within the 500' boundry and none of them were ever notified about any of this happening. As I've stated before, I knew I was buying into a mixed use development...I just was never told or expected 458 rental apartments with 1,157 parking spaces right smack dab in the heart of the community and along the lakefront!

Celebrated, I'm really surprised you're not more upset about the placement of these apartments.

SouthWoodResident, You really should post your explanation of the whole CDD thing on TownTalk because there is much confusion and mistrust over that as well. If you don't want to do that may I have your permission to copy and paste your comments there myself leaving any connection to you out of it?

There is an electronic petition signing effort underway also. The goal is 1,000 signatures to present to St. Joe & Broad Street Partners in opposition to where this project is being placed.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-sout...39s-town-center

[SouthwoodResident]

Florida, thanks for the welcome back. I read this site occasionally but don't post much.

Glenn, you're welcome to repost the information I wrote about the meeting last night. I think someone may have already done so. You're welcome to repost this also. People who couldn't attend the meeting are interested in knowing what happened, but I hope that large numbers of people continue to attend the meetings. It's not convenient, but it's important.

While I appreciate the attorney/residents volunteering to handle the legal end, we need to continue letting St. Joe reps and state/local elected officials know of our concern by showing up and being physically present at the public meetings where matters related to Southwood are being discussed. We've let St. Joe run the show for too long and now we can see where it's gotten us. The homeowner's association is operated under a private contact between a community management company and St. Joe. The actual Southwood residents, until now completely unorganized, are the only people who are truly interested in making Southwood happen the way it was sold to us.

St. Joe will soon be gone, as will the Beazer and David Weekly homebuilders. It's in their interests to continue to pretend that Southwood is developing according to a master plan, when in reality, the master plan is changed everytime St. Joe sees an opportunity to escape responsibility and cash out. We're the ones who will have to deal with whatever they've left. This information will not be lost on people considering the purchase of residences in other St. Joe developments. It's normal to expect a new community to have some growing pains. St. Joe's disregard for the residents of its communities is not merely a growing pain. It permanently impacts the quality of life we will have within our neighborhood.

As time has passed, amenities that were promised have disappeared or been delayed (and will eventually disappear). The neighborhood was sold on the basis of schools, but Florida High is filled and the elementary school is not open. City parks and recreational facilties originally identified on the site plan remain unconstructed. The promised beachclub has no real beach and is no more than a pool and a restaurant within another St. Joe development. The historic Southwood House, the original sales center, sits vacant, paint peeling, relatively unused (and likely to be the responsibility of the CDD to maintain when St. Joe is gone.) The town center area, which was to have been filled with ground-floor retail and restaurants along Merchant's Row with residential uses above, is a primarily a sales center for homebuilders. There are a few food operations, struggling for a number of reasons, not the least of which there is nothing to attract people to them. That's the area that's now planned for nothing more than a mass of apartment buildings.

There's a City Planning Commission meeting on November 6.

A hearing (possibly the last one) will be held on the plan to split the CDD on November 7 at the state Capitol, room 2103.

The meeting with St. Joe reps and the apartment developers is on November 14 at the golf club. [

Hope to see many residents at all of these meetings.

[poonther]

Excellent factual info SWR. I forgot Southwood was a DRI, those require even more approvals for revisions from agencies such as DCA and the Apalachee Regional Planning Council IF the revisions are deemed substantial from the original DRI. This one may or not be deemed substantial. Like I've been saying, hang them on the technical aspects of this thing if you can.

What St. Joe is doing I've seen done many times in South FL by developers. When the residents take over the community in the form of boards, they want nothing to do w/it b/c the residents just get in the way of their plans. It's definitely not an honorable thing to do and I would have expected more of the St. Joe Corp.

[Glenn]

Glenn, you're welcome to repost the information I wrote about the meeting last night. I think someone may have already done so. You're welcome to repost this also.