Foundry Park - CoStar HQ

[eandslee]

13 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

There's always a chance it could come it at 500 or 505 feet - still not the tallest in the state - but 51 to 56 feet taller than the Monroe Tower. Much as we'd prefer something much larger, that would still work, wouldn't it? 

No.  I won't settle. 

[I miss RVA]

4 minutes ago, eandslee said:

No.  I won't settle. 

Wow, @eandslee-- you're starting to sound like ME now! 

[KJHburg]

51 minutes ago, eandslee said:

No.  I won't settle. 

dream big my friend.  I mean 510 feet tall and we have the new tallest in the Commonwealth which is very  unlikely to happen anytime soon in Tidewater metros and even Northern VA.   And signature tower is not a 20 story building.  Plus Richmond has plenty of large law firms that might be interested in some newest and best space. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by KJHburg

[Icetera]

24 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

dream big my friend.  I mean 510 feet tall and we have the new tallest in the Commonwealth which is very  unlikely to happen anytime soon in Tidewater metros and even Northern VA.   And signature tower is not a 20 story building.  Plus Richmond has plenty of large law firms that might be interested in some newest and best space. 

You say that but I believe Dominion Energy referred to theirs as a "signature tower" that would change the skyline.  It does have great impact, reaching taller than its floor count, but it is right at 20 floors.  The law firms are a great point.

[eandslee]

11 minutes ago, Icetera said:

You say that but I believe Dominion Energy referred to theirs as a "signature tower" that would change the skyline.  It does have great impact, reaching taller than its floor count, but it is right at 20 floors.  The law firms are a great point.

Yeah, Richmond has a different idea of what a "signature tower" is.  I guess it may be relative to the overall skyline height, but if "signature" doesn't mean that it is taller than all the rest of the towers in a skyline, then, I guess its design could be signature-ish.  Dominion's tower is kind of cool looking.  Love all the glass and the cool LED lights at night.  It's just not the typical crown on top that one might expect from a signature tower.  Plus, every time someone takes a photo of the skyline from the south side of the river where Dominion's tower aligns with the Federal Reserve tower...you just don't see the Dominion tower at all.  A signature tower to me would mean that you can see it from all angles.  That's just me though.

[I miss RVA]

52 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

dream big my friend.  I mean 510 feet tall and we have the new tallest in the Commonwealth which is very  unlikely to happen anytime soon in Tidewater metros and even Northern VA.   And signature tower is not a 20 story building.  Plus Richmond has plenty of large law firms that might be interested in some newest and best space. 

Agreed on all points, my friend.  From your keyboard to God's eyes! 

Just some interesting history regarding RVA height: 

It's funny how for whatever reason we seem to have gotten "stuck" at 20 floors as some kind of artificial ceiling. The Dominion "signature" tower has 20 occupied floors but supposedly with the point is equivalent to about 29 stories in height (and at something like 413 feet). But back in the mid-to-late 70s and into the 80s, we were building taller and taller. The BoA building at 12th and Main is 25 stories. The Fed is 26. Truist (is that the name now? This building has had to change signs atop the building more than we all change underwear, so it seems!) - is 26 stories. The Monroe Tower 29 (or 30 - depending on who was doing the counting) ... Even the 600 Center was 23... a big, bulky building (I worked in the 700 building for a decade in the 80s and watched the 600 Center being built - I believe it was called "Main Street Plaza" back then - and was originally planned to be two towers)

Even the James Center had a building planned (and never built) that was to be the signature building of the complex and would check in at 40 stories tall. And Three James Center was built to be expanded from its current height to 26 stories.

In a nutshell, height in RVA was moving upwards in the late 70s and into the 80s...

And then it stopped.

Even the Locks at 321 (which was a GORGEOUS tower - and that's a loss I lament as it would have been amazing right on the riverfront) - was capped at 21 floors.

Everything else new seems to have come in at less than 20 stories. 

I don't understand how the dynamics in downtown RVA could have changed THAT much over the past 35-40 years.

Even Dominion's signature tower - wasn't the original design. Here's a picture I snagged from somewhere on one of the archived threads on this site (RVA UP) that had been posted several years ago. THIS (below) was what the original Dominion Tower plans called for. Check out how tall the center building (which is on the site of the old OJRP building) would have been roughly 33-35 occupied stories tall - and with the crown, an equivalent height of about 40 stories tall. Even not fancy - just a rather banal, flat-topped, glass-and-steel box... something right out of 1960s midtown Manhattan... but it would have been easily the tallest building in RVA  - and - I'd be curious to know if this would have topped 508 feet to snag the crown of tallest in the Commonwealth.

I would have GLADLY traded in what Dominion built now for the stumpy 16-story collection of hat boxes on the current site at 600 Canal in order to get THIS beauty standing up over the skyline. PLUS - the build out of the smaller building all the way to the Cary Street side - plus the large tower and nice build out of the deck below - would have formed a really nice urban wall along the south side of Cary Street connecting through the Gateway Plaza building to the James Center - so that the stretch from 6th and Cary all the way to about 10th and Cary would have had a fantastic, unified, urban look and feel to it - with ample opportunity for street-level activity.

Yet ... it didn't happen.

Imagine what downtown would look like if THIS got built...

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by I miss RVA

[Jordon]

A signature spiral would be nice

[KJHburg]

Construction costs for high rises goes up a lot after passing 25-30 floors as you have to add more elevator banks.   and yes signature tower means different things in different markets for sure.  Maybe they could be a topper on it as we recently had a building completed that has a 100 foot tall pyramid on top that is lit up and so forth hiding the mechanicals and such on the roof.  Bank of America Plaza Tower in Atlanta is taller than the one in Charlotte but only because they put a spire pyramid structure  on top that pushed it much higher but not occupable space.  That proposal for Dominion Energy is/was really nice.  Regulated utilities don't want to look like they are building a huge monument to their company as the rateholders and state regulators might get upset.

When our new Duke Energy Plaza was announced it was done on a Friday afternoon 2 years in Dec. and calld a cost savings as they were consolidated their space holdings.  All of that is true but the felt the need to explain it.  It is almost topped out now. 

I sure hope it is the tallest but if not something so striking it will get all the attention on the skyline and that happens many times all over the city.    

[Brent114]

Tallest  is relative.  The Capital One building in Tysons Corner isn’t all that impressive.   It looks small due to the interstate beside it being so gargantuan and sprawling in every direction.  You can’t see it from 495 until right upon it either (maybe you can see it from the Dulles toll road?) 

[Icetera]

21 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

Tallest  is relative.  The Capital One building in Tysons Corner isn’t all that impressive.   It looks small due to the interstate beside it being so gargantuan and sprawling in every direction.  You can’t see it from 495 until right upon it either (maybe you can see it from the Dulles toll road?) 

I was just noting that the other week.  It really does not give the impression of being as tall as it is.

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Jordon said:

A signature spiral would be nice

You want a signature spiral for downtown RVA?

Okay... here ya go...

Signature spiral -- that was proposed in 1985 for downtown RVA.

It was designed by famed Richmond architect Haigh Jamgochian (of Markel Building fame), who specialized in architecture right out of The Jetsons.  It would have been a mixed-use tower - roughly 50 occupied floors, sitting atop a nine-level parking podium. If I recall, it was proposed for where Gateway Plaza now sits. With its gorgeous, ornamental spire, It would have dwarfed every tall building downtown and IMMEDIATELY made RVA's skyline iconic and very much nationally recognizable. Though I don't recall actual height in footage ever quoted, I recall seeing pictures of it superimposed on the downtown skyline - and using heights of buildings extant downtown then, my guess is that this beauty including the spire and parking podium would have easily been in the 850 to 900 foot tall range.

Jamgochian designed a number of futuristic buildings that he proposed be built downtown. Unfortunately, the architecture Nazis run amok in RVA wanted nothing to do with any of Jamgochian's futuristic designs - and pilloried and pooh-poohed him to the point of dog-dragging him publicly in the media back in the 60s through the mid-late 80s.

Fortunately, Style Weekly in 2006 had the good sense to honor the man who could'a/would'a/should'a been RVA's answer to Frank Lloyd Wright in an outstanding feature story.

https://m.styleweekly.com/richmond/the-visionary/Content?oid=1378451

A sad but unsurprising quote from the Style weekly story:

Jamgochian earned a reputation as a rebel. But his designs, or else the motivations behind them, often left him out of touch with conventional mores of the time and relegated to the margins of a Richmond community that didn't quite share his vision for a city of the future.

"I started talking about futuristic architecture and what could make Richmond a futuristic city, but in the '60s it was just like today," he says. "I couldn't get anyone to listen and the city was going nowhere."

Seems like a lament we've heard here on RVA UP numerous times when reflecting about the city's abject failures to get out of its own way and to extricate its collective head from its backside.

Okay - check out THIS beauty - and just imagine it on the downtown RVA skyline. 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by I miss RVA

[Icetera]

23 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

You want a signature spiral for downtown RVA?

Okay... here ya go...

Signature spiral -- that was proposed in 1985 for downtown RVA.

It was designed by famed Richmond architect Haigh Jamgochian (of Markel Building fame), who specialized in architecture right out of The Jetsons.  It would have been a mixed-use tower - roughly 50 occupied floors, sitting atop a nine-level parking podium. If I recall, it was proposed for where Gateway Plaza now sits. With its gorgeous, ornamental spire, It would have dwarfed every tall building downtown and IMMEDIATELY made RVA's skyline iconic and very much nationally recognizable. Though I don't recall actual height in footage ever quoted, I recall seeing pictures of it superimposed on the downtown skyline - and using heights of buildings extant downtown then, my guess is that this beauty including the spire and parking podium would have easily been in the 850 to 900 foot tall range.

Jamgochian designed a number of futuristic buildings that he proposed be built downtown. Unfortunately, the architecture Nazis run amok in RVA wanted nothing to do with any of Jamgochian's futuristic designs - and pilloried and pooh-poohed him to the point of dog-dragging him publicly in the media back in the 60s through the mid-late 80s.

Fortunately, Style Weekly in 2006 had the good sense to honor the man who could'a/would'a/should'a been RVA's answer to Frank Lloyd Wright in an outstanding feature story.

https://m.styleweekly.com/richmond/the-visionary/Content?oid=1378451

A sad but unsurprising quote from the Style weekly story:

Jamgochian earned a reputation as a rebel. But his designs, or else the motivations behind them, often left him out of touch with conventional mores of the time and relegated to the margins of a Richmond community that didn't quite share his vision for a city of the future.

"I started talking about futuristic architecture and what could make Richmond a futuristic city, but in the '60s it was just like today," he says. "I couldn't get anyone to listen and the city was going nowhere."

Seems like a lament we've heard here on RVA UP numerous times when reflecting about the city's abject failures to get out of its own way and to extricate its collective head from its backside.

Okay - check out THIS beauty - and just imagine it on the downtown RVA skyline. 

 

That actually was not going to be in downtown, but right across Chippenham from Cloverleaf Mall, if I recall correctly.  Such an odd choice of location for a tower of that significance.

https://www.emporis.com/buildings/308638/jamgochian-tower-richmond-va-usa
 

Listed as only 600' to the tip and 38 floors, which seems way off from that model.
 

I had never seen this drawing before:

https://twitter.com/LibraryofVA/status/1246051444815540224/photo/3

Edited December 2, 2021 by Icetera
Update from Emporis

[I miss RVA]

32 minutes ago, Icetera said:

That actually was not going to be in downtown, but right across Chippenham from Cloverleaf Mall, if I recall correctly.  Such an odd choice of location for a tower of that significance.

https://www.emporis.com/buildings/308638/jamgochian-tower-richmond-va-usa
 

Listed as only 600' to the tip and 38 floors, which seems way off from that model.
 

I had never seen this drawing before:

https://twitter.com/LibraryofVA/status/1246051444815540224/photo/3

I'm not sure about Emporis' numbers. I agree with you, Ice - those numbers seem WAY off from the model. Based on pictures I recall from back then (someone had done a few renderings superimposing it on the downtown skyline) - it dwarfed everything that was on the skyline then - and stood about double the height of the Federal Reserve building.

The pencil sketch was Jamgochian's original design that got reworked and updated when it was fleshed out into more of a solid model.

Location: The tower was originally proposed to be built downtown. 

The Chippenham location was a secondary proposal - The the pushback to developing this along the downtown riverfront was so severe that the second proposal to build it at Chippenham and Midlo was put on the table. Obviously, it went nowhere, simply because that location made absolutely no sense whatsoever. If it got rejected for downtown (which it did) - then there was no way it was going to be approved for the Chippenham location.

I seem to recall that the current Gateway Plaza site was the original location proposed for the tower - and that a lot of discussion centered on the relatively small footprint this tower would have, given the street configuration of the diagonal cut through from 8th street southbound to link up with 9th Street at Canal for the entrance to the Manchester Bridge. That lot (prior to the city reconfiguring it to handle the larger footprint for Gateway Plaza) was relatively small - and Jamgochian's updated design with the parking podium starting at street level) fit that small lot well enough to make the footprint work for putting the tower there.

According to the 2006 Style Weekly feature on Jamgochian, the tower was part of a his portfolio of high rises he had designed and pitched - all of which were rejected. Even as late as 2006, apparently he even approached L. Douglas Wilder trying to push to get these buildings (including the spiral tower) built downtown.

There is the "tree house," an ultra-narrow, 15-story apartment building with 50-foot, cantilevered floors extending as branches from a trunklike shaft. Next is the "futuristic tree house," a kind of double-helix, wavy version but with two 25-story apartment towers parallel to one another. There is a twin hotel complex that would rotate 360 degrees on its axis daily, which would include a marina. Next is a mushroom, podlike office and entertainment complex. Last is his spiral skyscraper.

In recent months Jamgochian has pressed historic preservationist and millionaire Ivor Massey Jr. and Richmond Mayor L. Douglas Wilder to support his five-building design for downtown. So far, no takers.
 

The twin rotating hotel structure was also pitched to Virginia Beach. Obviously that was a ground ball back to the mound for the easy 1-3 putout.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by I miss RVA

[I miss RVA]

Here are three of Jamgochian's other designs - all of which were initially proposed for downtown. (The twin rotating hotel complex was also pitched for Virginia Beach). Note - the 15-story "treehouse" apartment building (far right hand picture) was pitched to be built at Franklin and Foushee.

 

[Brent114]

I loved the tree house design.  That would have been glorious on Franklin.  
 

[I miss RVA]

18 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I loved the tree house design.  That would have been glorious on Franklin.  
 

I agree 100%, Brent. No doubt it would have aligned the length of the building north-south, along Foushee, with the wide sides facing east-west, presenting an incredibly narrow profile on the skyline when viewed from, say, the Lee Bridge. It would have been a "skinny" some 40 or 50 years before "skinnies" began popping up all over Manhattan.

Can you imagine the "double-helix" style dual 25-story apartment buildings downtown?  I'm not sure where those might have been built.

What I always appreciated about Jamgochian was that not only was he thinking futuristic -- (and these architectural styles ultimately popped up in cities all around the world) - but he was thinking TALL. He was not about to let his hometown get relegated into a morass of homogeneous development downtown - with some sort of self-imposed restriction on height and design. He saw RVA as a future BIG city. And he thought BIG. My kind of architect!

I only wish i could have had the good fortune to meet him back in the day. He passed away only two years ago -- in 2019 at the age of 95. He was two years younger than my father (were he alive, he'd turn 100 next July) - and like my dad, was one of many Richmonders who served in WWII. It would have been a great honor to meet such a visionary man.

He understood RVA's potential FAR better than most did in his day, which is why "mainstream" old-guard Richmond wanted little to nothing to do with him. He wasn't willing to settle for "historic" architecture carrying the day here. He wanted progress and change - and I can't help but believe that if his designs had come to live in downtown RVA, this city might be a very different place today.

[CH_BP93]

First time posting on this forum, but I've been a reader for some time. Over the weekend, I was hanging out with an old colleague who works at CoStar and I asked him about the status of this project. He shared that it's still in the works. In late August, they had a model of the proposed new buildings on display up on the 9th floor. If this is indeed what they end up building then it will be a great addition to the skyline.

[I miss RVA]

OH...  MY...  GOD...

This is GORGEOUS! I hope and PRAY this is still what's being planned. That's EPIC. A real signature building on the skyline!

Edited December 13, 2021 by I miss RVA

[eandslee]

Whoa!  What a way to start posting here on the site - dropping a hugely awesome bomb like that!  Welcome CH_BP93!  This looks pretty amazing...except...put a darn spire on that thing!  Don't like flat roof lines, but I do like the overall look of it.  Not the State's tallest, but definitely a marked addition to the skyline!  Hopefully, they make some changes to the design a bit to put a pointy end on the top.  Appears to be about 23-25 stories (by my very quick and rough count).

Edited December 13, 2021 by eandslee

[I miss RVA]

4 hours ago, eandslee said:

Whoa!  What a way to start posting here on the site - dropping a hugely awesome bomb like that!  Welcome CH_BP93!  This looks pretty amazing...except...put a darn spire on that thing!  Don't like flat roof lines, but I do like the overall look of it.  Not the State's tallest, but definitely a marked addition to the skyline!  Hopefully, they make some changes to the design a bit to put a pointy end on the top.  Appears to be about 23-25 stories (by my very quick and rough count).

I might be off by one or so, but I count 25 occupyable floors, not including the crown. With the crown 28-ish equivalent. Definitely looks like it could be a bit taller than Dominion. I wonder where it shakes out vs Monroe?

Oh - and I agree 100% with putting a spire or a wedding-cake-like top on the building. The flat rooftop... ugh... we have enough of those already. Let's spice things up a bit!

Edited December 13, 2021 by I miss RVA

[eandslee]

1 hour ago, CH_BP93 said:

Just noticed that the second Dominion tower that no longer will be built is in the model above.  Just interesting that it’s there.  Guess that’s what it would have looked like if built.  Hopefully, it will be the home of a new, spectacular signature tower for some other company in the near future!

[wrldcoupe4]

For context, the Fed is 393'.

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

For context, the Fed is 393'.

Some further context:

Fed 393'

Truist (Sun Trust) 400'

Dominion 417'

James Monroe 449'

So where do we think -- if this model is in fact correct and accurate to scale -- that a new CoStar tower may come in?

I'm thinking it squeezes past Dominion by a modest amount. Does it make up/exceed the 32-foot gap between Dominion and Monroe? If it's close to breaking 449' - do the powers that be at CoStar have the architect either add a floor or add to the crown? Yes - it's all speculation - but with three weeks left in the year, it's something fun to do as we head into what hopefully will be an EPIC 2022 from an RVA growth and project development standpoint.

Let's apply some speculative math to the problem:

According to data recorded on our UP highrise building spreadsheet, the Fed, Sun Trust, Monroe, Gateway Plaza all show floor heights of 15'. Dominion is shown at 21' - but I think that number needs to be recalculated in that it's accounting for the height of the building, including the crown, without accounting for the number of floors equivalent of the crown. Given the increased height of the ground-level to 2nd floor (looks to be about 2 : 1 - and the crown extending roughtly 5.5 to 6 equivalent floors above what appears to be the 20th level, we could assume the Dominion Building has a floor-equivalent of 26.5 or 27 floors - putting the average floor height at around 15 feet (anywhere from 14.8 to 15.4).

So if CoStar builds 25 occupyable floors at 15' - and adds a crown equivalent to about four more floors (based on how the model looks) -- at 29 equivalent floors (including crown) - using 15' per floor, the building would top out at 435 feet. Taller than Dominion -- but missing the mark set by the Monroe tower by all of 14 feet -- basically one floor.

Now our spreadhsheet indicates that both towers of Riverfront Plaza is built with a floor height of 16'.  Using the same specs as above, with a 16-foot floor height, CoStar would top out at 464 feet tall - besting the Monroe building by 15 feet.

What do you guys think happens? If CoStar is within 15 feet of TOPPING Monroe (trailing by 14 feet - and they just need to add one more floor at 15' to get to 450 - beating out Monroe (449') by a single foot) -- do they do it? Or do they add to the crown to get there?

 

COROLLARY: Keep in mind that a spire of any kind -- so long as it is built into the actual architecture of the building, and isn't an "add-on" like a communications mast (a la City Hall) - counts toward the actual height of the building. They could easily do a mini-wedding cake at one end of the top of the crown narrowing down to a spire - and that spire could be 100 feet or more even. So imagine the current design with one end of the building including a nice spire that sticks up an additional 100-120 feet -- giving the building a total physical height of, say, 535-550 feet!  All for 25 occupyable floors.

Thoughts, gentlemen?

Edited December 13, 2021 by I miss RVA

[wrldcoupe4]

I’m going to say 425’-450’. Not sure if it can squeeze past the Monroe. 

[I miss RVA]

9 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

I’m going to say 425’-450’. Not sure if it can squeeze past the Monroe. 

Coupe -- we're on the same page. I made an edit to the post, adding some math. Have a look.

Using a floor height of 15', I'm estimating 435' stem to stern.

Edited December 13, 2021 by I miss RVA