Vantage South End - 1100 S Tryon

[KJHburg]

17 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I do not own a car, I commute only by train, and let me tell you, during NYC summers, I sweat straight through my clothes, I can only imagine doing it in Charlotte. 

My vehicles dont have this but I would recommend air conditioned seats in your new NC vehicle. 

[CLT>]

On 5/9/2019 at 1:56 AM, KJHburg said:

here is a rendering and close up of the retail spaces at the new Spectrum LendingTree HQ from their website.

https://www.spectrumcos.com/portfolios/south-end-project/

 

Odd that they're not doing much on street parking with this project, especially with the fact their setbacks are so big on Winnifred . Still looks like a suburban design, was expecting a bit more street activation. Too bad it didn't happen under the new zoning or the parking deck could have been slightly smaller.

[JHart]

15 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Without that parking, they don't get financing to build this, so thus no buildings what so ever. 

Without parking, they don't attract Lending Tree, a place that formerly had offices at Ballantyne, South Park and Fort Mill, people are going to need to drive here, so thus, no buildings what so ever.

I am super pro urban, anti car, anti parking, but I'm also realistic. We do not have a nearly robust enough of a transit system, or temperate enough of a climate, to expect corporate people will chose mass transit over cars. I do not own a car, I commute only by train, and let me tell you, during NYC summers, I sweat straight through my clothes, I can only imagine doing it in Charlotte. 

 

I understand how car-centric Charlotte is and understand they need to have parking for their facilities, but it is disappointing when they are quite literally building a larger parking deck than office. Not to mention the gorgeous skyline view for their neighbor at the Railyard, 11 stories of grey concrete...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JHart said:

I understand how car-centric Charlotte is and understand they need to have parking for their facilities, but it is disappointing when they are quite literally building a larger parking deck than office. Not to mention the gorgeous skyline view for their neighbor at the Railyard, 11 stories of grey concrete...

Literally speaking the office towers are about 30-40% larger than the deck. Theres also 50,000 sq feet of retail, and a full service boutique hotel. Thats a lot of uses, so it needs a lot of parking. As far as the view goes, I've heard Cousins or someone else is working on an office building on the other side of the rental car building. Thus, one day Spectrum's view will be blocked. Thus is the nature of a city.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

3 hours ago, CLT> said:

Odd that they're not doing much on street parking with this project, especially with the fact their setbacks are so big on Winnifred . Still looks like a suburban design, was expecting a bit more street activation. Too bad it didn't happen under the new zoning or the parking deck could have been slightly smaller.

The hardscaping/landscaping plan that I posted above isn't as suburban as these renderings, which I found really odd looking, the landscaping in the rendering looks way too suburban, I agree. Theres also a bit more on street parking.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Guest

[orulz]

What exactly is behind these monstrous huge parking decks? Does zoning mandate them, and the top 4 floors will never see a single car? Are commercial construction lenders demanding ridiculous parking ratios as a part of their financing package? Are developers trying to build excess parking now while it's still allowed, before the city (eventually, inevitably) moves toward parking maximums, and predicting that thos will cause parking spaces to appreciate? Is the developer just doing it because it's not that expensive and will make their building more attractive to tenants? Is this a play related to eventual conversion of some levels into finished space? Are there multiple planned future phases that the developer is planning?

I haven't really seen evidence of any of the above. This is one block from the light rail. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, orulz said:

What exactly is behind these monstrous huge parking decks? Does zoning mandate them, and the top 4 floors will never see a single car? Are commercial construction lenders demanding ridiculous parking ratios as a part of their financing package? Are developers trying to build excess parking now while it's still allowed, before the city (eventually, inevitably) moves toward parking maximums, and predicting that thos will cause parking spaces to appreciate? Is the developer just doing it because it's not that expensive and will make their building more attractive to tenants? Is this a play related to eventual conversion of some levels into finished space? Are there multiple planned future phases that the developer is planning?

I haven't really seen evidence of any of the above. This is one block from the light rail. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I can tell you for a fact, speaking that I know the people that build towers like these. Nobody wants to build this much parking, its pricy as hell, but this is what tenants, and lenders are demanding. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

Parking Maximums is 3 spaces per 1000 sq feet. 

Building 1: 340k sq feet. so 1020 Spaces

Building 2: 300k sq feet. so 900 spaces

200 hotel rooms at .5 spaces per room = 100 spaces

50,000 sq feet of retail  at 3 space per 1000 sq feet = 150 parking spaces

So the maximum is 2,170 parking spaces. 

They are providing 1,713 parking spaces. So its well below the maximum.

 

I do agree its too much. But again, need a massive paradigm shift in commuting patterns, and a WAY more robust transit system will need to be established before these numbers go down. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Guest

[queensguy06]

33 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I do agree its too much. But again, need a massive paradigm shift in commuting patterns, and a WAY more robust transit system will need to be established before these numbers go down. 

This - I've seen a few posts mention light rail being a block away.  That's great and all, but Charlotte only has one line currently with any additional lines at least a decade out.  The only way riding light rail to this office makes sense is if you live south of the blue line and park at the South Blvd station (alternately on  the north end of the line as well), or live somewhere within the TOD zone of the blue line.  There just isn't enough rail service to accommodate the vast majority of commuters at this point.  Even if I live immediately outside of downtown, say in Dilworth, I'm going to drive to that office - otherwise I'd have to drive to the Scaleybark park and ride and wait for a train all to ride for two or three stops.  It's easily adding an hour of unnecessary commuting time each day.  And that only grows exponentially the further away from the blue line you live.   While I'm all for riding mass transit when possible, there is an opportunity cost involved in going out of my way to do so.

And this says nothing of the mixed use aspects of this project.  For the hotel, if I'm flying into the airport for business, more than likely I'm renting a car.  If there was a rail line to Uptown, that might be different.  If I'm staying at the hotel and not flying, then obviously I need to park my car somewhere.  Additionally, if I'm a small business renting one of the retail spots, ideally I'd want to serve more customers than just those that can access my business via the light rail line.  If I'm looking at two prime locations in this area of Charlotte at the same price point, you better believe that I'm going to go with the space that offers more parking for customers.

Just like @ricky_davis_fan_21, I'm all for less parking garage monstrosities across the board.  However, one rail line doesn't automatically create the demand for that.  You can't build one train line and then expect the entire auto-centric landscape to change, especially if it inconveniences more people than it benefits.  If Charlotte keeps pushing for more transit and builds a system on par with something comparable to say Denver (see below), then we will start to see that shift in time.  But now is not that time.

 

[orulz]

Tenants and lenders may be demanding insane parking ratios but nobody in their right mind will want to drive up a damn 11 story parking deck. Ugh. Mark my words... anything past level 7 will be occupied less than 1% of the time.

Tenants and lenders may be demanding insane parking ratios but nobody in their right mind will want to drive up a damn 11 story parking deck. Ugh. Mark my words... anything past level 7 will be occupied less than 1% of the time.

...driving to the top level of a parking deck like that, and riding the elevator down every morning, and doing the reverse in the evening, is easily 20 minutes a day. With soul crushing time wasting crap like that tacked onto your commute, transit starts to make a lot more sense.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, orulz said:

Tenants and lenders may be demanding insane parking ratios but nobody in their right mind will want to drive up a damn 11 story parking deck. Ugh. Mark my words... anything past level 7 will be occupied less than 1% of the time.

...driving to the top level of a parking deck like that, and riding the elevator down every morning, and doing the reverse in the evening, is easily 20 minutes a day. With soul crushing time wasting crap like that tacked onto your commute, transit starts to make a lot more sense.

lucky for you I have parking usage numbers for all the decks uptown. 

So with below considered, I give a counter point. The current largest deck, from a vertically integrated perspective is Duke Energy Center. Which is buried, devoid of natural light 9 floors into the earth. Its occupied % is still 93%. 

I'd be way more pissed about Legacy Union's parking numbers than this project. The latest addition of 800 spaces, brings its new parking total up to 4,600. Another tower announcement that is imminent will bring it up to 5400-5600.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

Got good news though, they are burying the power lines. 

[JHart]

2 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Parking Maximums is 3 spaces per 1000 sq feet. 

Building 1: 340k sq feet. so 1020 Spaces

Building 2: 300k sq feet. so 900 spaces

200 hotel rooms at .5 spaces per room = 100 spaces

50,000 sq feet of retail  at 3 space per 1000 sq feet = 150 parking spaces

So the maximum is 2,170 parking spaces. 

They are providing 1,713 parking spaces. So its well below the maximum.

 

I do agree its too much. But again, need a massive paradigm shift in commuting patterns, and a WAY more robust transit system will need to be established before these numbers go down. 

If you apply these numbers at 80% the maximum number of parking spaces like this project, Uptown would need another 15,000 parking spaces over what they currently offer... I'm certainly not saying that we now have an extensive public transit system, nobody needs to build parking decks, just that this is a horrible use of land and excessive. They are literally using more land to build the deck than both towers combined 

[orulz]

DEC has about 25% more spaces but roughly twice the office square footage as this one. It seems that this excessive parking is actually a relatively *new* thing. Between this and LU, what I am wondering is, why are parking ratios going *up*?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, orulz said:

DEC has about 25% more spaces but roughly twice the office square footage as this one. It seems that this excessive parking is actually a relatively *new* thing. Between this and LU, what I am wondering is, why are parking ratios going *up*?

DEC also utilizes "Mint Street Garage." which is 2179 spaces.  You do have an excellent point though. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Wow, never realized DEC has 9 floors of parking below ground. That's fantastic.

[Guest]

DEC2 will be 1.1M of office and 30,000 of retail and only have 1,000 spaces. 

[queensguy06]

46 minutes ago, orulz said:

Tenants and lenders may be demanding insane parking ratios but nobody in their right mind will want to drive up a damn 11 story parking deck. Ugh. Mark my words... anything past level 7 will be occupied less than 1% of the time.

...driving to the top level of a parking deck like that, and riding the elevator down every morning, and doing the reverse in the evening, is easily 20 minutes a day. With soul crushing time wasting crap like that tacked onto your commute, transit starts to make a lot more sense.

 

20 minutes ago, orulz said:

DEC has about 25% more spaces but roughly twice the office square footage as this one. It seems that this excessive parking is actually a relatively *new* thing. Between this and LU, what I am wondering is, why are parking ratios going *up*?

I am by no means in the know on this, just speculation, but I have a few theories.  First, for 1100 S. Tryon, I think the upper levels will be used as they sit right below the hotel component.  If I'm staying in the hotel on top of the deck, I'm going to try and park within the first two levels of the garage below the hotel.  My guess is that the upper levels will be reserved for the hotel, lower levels for the office, and in the middle will be general parking for the public.  Really it is the mixed use of this project that I think warranted the size of the deck, for better or worse.

As far as Legacy Union, it certainly is the exception to the rule Uptown.  The original plan included a ton of mixed use, which has evolved into mainly office since construction began.  The deck was originally designed to accommodate the mixed aspects of the project.  As plans evolved, I don't know that you could go back and decide to cut the deck short after a large portion of the construction had been completed.  In addition, if there still are plans for an 800-1000 room hotel, this might also justify a portion of that space.  The Westin has 1,600 spaces in that deck that had 79% occupancy before the Regions building was completed.

Again, LU definitely seems like overkill, even with a large hotel in the mix.  But if you add it up - say 500 spaces for Deloitte, 1,000 for BOAT, 1,600 for a hotel, with possibly two more office towers to be built (not including Honeywell), then you get to 4500-5500 spaces pretty quickly.  Having said all of that, I can't imagine parking in this deck ever - the logistics of just getting in and out of it would be a nightmare.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, queensguy06 said:

Having said all of that, I can't imagine parking in this deck ever - the logistics of just getting in and out of it would be a nightmare.

Totally agree, I'd probably end up staying late at work everyday to avoid the hassle.

[KJHburg]

46 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Wow, never realized DEC has 9 floors of parking below ground. That's fantastic.

One of my associates "lost" her car in that parking garage and I told her to go the center of the ramps and start unlocking her car and I helped her find it.  It is massive.   My least favorite garage is the Hearst it is hidden so kudos there but the spaces all seem to be very small and tight.  Favorite garage currently:  Whole Foods for size of parking spaces.  

On another note about buildings blocking buildings views in south end.  Simple solution so one build a 20 plus story tower and your problem is solved for a while. 

 

[kermit]

2 hours ago, queensguy06 said:

  Having said all of that, I can't imagine parking in this deck ever - the logistics of just getting in and out of it would be a nightmare.

This. Imagine the deck on game day, someone could honestly spend an hour or more waiting to exit the deck.

While I am more on the side of ‘property owners get to do what they like with their land’ than I would like to be the massive LU deck will become a big problem for all of us when they successfully lobby the city to  increase the size of curb cuts and make Hill, Church and Mint more speedway-like to accommodate all these exiting cars. This is already the least pedestrian friendly portion of uptown — it’s gonna get worse.

Edited May 21, 2019 by kermit

[tozmervo]

3 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

lucky for you I have parking usage numbers for all the decks uptown. 

So with below considered, I give a counter point. The current largest deck, from a vertically integrated perspective is Duke Energy Center. Which is buried, devoid of natural light 9 floors into the earth. Its occupied % is still 93%. 

I'd be way more pissed about Legacy Union's parking numbers than this project. The latest addition of 800 spaces, brings its new parking total up to 4,600. Another tower announcement that is imminent will bring it up to 5400-5600.

That is wildly inaccurate. I park in this deck often, and I'd say it barely hits 70% occupancy on the busiest days. Maybe it's like Knights ticket sales, and they aren't counting the actual cars in the deck, just the number of paid spots. 

[lancer22]

6 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

That is wildly inaccurate. I park in this deck often, and I'd say it barely hits 70% occupancy on the busiest days. Maybe it's like Knights ticket sales, and they aren't counting the actual cars in the deck, just the number of paid spots. 

And that my friends is called the overbooking fudge factor in running parking decks. You can actually overbook parking decks by up 20% and still get away with it working (120 passes / 100 spaces).

 

[J-Rob]

3 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I'd be way more pissed about Legacy Union's parking numbers than this project. The latest addition of 800 spaces, brings its new parking total up to 4,600. Another tower announcement that is imminent will bring it up to 5400-5600.

Are the additional 2,000 spaces expected to be podium parking under proposed towers, or will it be additional standalone decks?   If it is podium parking, at least it makes the towers taller, lol.   Is this imminent tower the same size as Honeywell if not larger (based on parking needs)?  Are you going to drop some hints about the anchor?  While a little annoying there aren't more mixed uses, it is incredible there is so much office demand in Charlotte we will end up with at least LU1-LU3, Ally, DEC2, and presumably LU4.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, J-Rob said:

Are the additional 2,000 spaces expected to be podium parking under proposed towers, or will it be additional standalone decks?   If it is podium parking, at least it makes the towers taller, lol.   Is this imminent tower the same size as Honeywell if not larger (based on parking needs)?  Are you going to drop some hints about the anchor?  While a little annoying there aren't more mixed uses, it is incredible there is so much office demand in Charlotte we will end up with at least LU1-LU3, Ally, DEC2, and presumably LU4.

Honeywell's is a added 800 spaces to the massive deck, and the office built above it. LU4 was a hint from two reliable sources. It'd get its own podium deck, maybe 500 feet tall.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Guest