CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[carolinagarnet]

I got excited when I saw the title of the article, but when I was through the roof when I read that it was about Charlotte. I think the Charlotte is still viewed as a mid-sized Southern city, so stories about its urban transformation are great for its image.

[RugbyPike#11]

A couple weeks ago, I bought a house in Sedgefield that is about a quarter mile to the New Bern Station.  I'm not quite ready to go completely carless, but I haven't driven to work since I moved.  I'm really excited for all the development that should happen around the station, but also think it's great that can access South End, Uptown, and NoDa restaurants and bars without needing to get into my car.  The properties closer to South Blvd and the light rail seem to be relatively cheap, but I wonder how long they'll stay like that as the millenials start making more money.

[rugger62]

A couple weeks ago, I bought a house in Sedgefield that is about a quarter mile to the New Bern Station.  I'm not quite ready to go completely carless, but I haven't driven to work since I moved.  I'm really excited for all the development that should happen around the station, but also think it's great that can access South End, Uptown, and NoDa restaurants and bars without needing to get into my car.  The properties closer to South Blvd and the light rail seem to be relatively cheap, but I wonder how long they'll stay like that as the millenials start making more money.

 

You're also very close to the new rugby facility near Clanton & Tryon.

[tozmervo]

Yup. BRT would never work in an American city.

 

http://zev.lacounty.gov/news/orange-crush

[Norm2]

Yup. BRT would never work in an American city.

 

http://zev.lacounty.gov/news/orange-crush

But that is in one of the most congested cities in the country. I am not sure if the same would work here, since our congestion and gas prices are no where near as bad.

[15895]

Yup. BRT would never work in an American city.

http://zev.lacounty.gov/news/orange-crush

Not really sure that has any relevance with Charlotte.

[tozmervo]

What about Eugene's BRT, then? At 5% the per-mile cost of the BLE, they more than double ridership of one of their corridors to near 6k passengers a day. And Eugene's population? Just 160,000. Most cities that size would do well to have 6000 riders a month on their entire networks.

[cltbwimob]

What about Eugene's BRT, then? At 5% the per-mile cost of the BLE, they more than double ridership of one of their corridors to near 6k passengers a day. And Eugene's population? Just 160,000. Most cities that size would do well to have 6000 riders a month on their entire networks.

I am not so sure how Eugene or LA BRT systems are relevant to Charlotte's Transit plan. Neither is a peer city to Charlotte with LA being much larger and Eugene being much smaller. Both are west coast cities which have different cultural norms, attitudes, growth patterns, zoning laws etc. as compared to Charlotte. I do not think either one is a fair comparison to Charlotte especially if you are referring to the old (and hopefully defunct) Independence Blvd BRT plan.

Edited May 21, 2013 by cltbwimob

[Norm2]

I am not so sure how Eugene or LA BRT systems are in relevant to Charlotte's Transit plan. Neither is a peer city to Charlotte with LA being much larger and Eugene being much smaller. Both are west coast cities which have different cultural norms, attitudes, growth patterns, zoning laws etc. as compared to Charlotte. I do not think either one is a fair comparison to Charlotte especially if you are referring to the old (and hopefully defunct) Independence Blvd BRT plan.

The fact that a BRT system can be successful in America is great. I agree though, there are huge cultural differences between east coast and west coast, as well as population differences between Charlotte and the cities in the article. I am glad that BRT works, I just do not think it would work here, unless gas prices were to spike.

[15895]

And our transportation plan also is heavily planned on spurring growth and controlling sprawl and influencing growth patterns. Correct?

Where as LA's might be more focused on simply getting people from point A to Point B. Maybe (not familiar with LA at all)

[DEnd]

And our transportation plan also is heavily planned on spurring growth and controlling sprawl and influencing growth patterns. Correct?

Where as LA's might be more focused on simply getting people from point A to Point B. Maybe (not familiar with LA at all)

 

Point A to B is a lot of it, but they are also trying to influence growth patterns as well.

[southslider]

Sprinter seems to be working well as BRT-lite for Charlotte.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Cleveland installed a similar BRT system down one of it's main corridors in downtown to the University Circle.  It operates in it's own lanes and has a median in the middle of the street that mimics a street car stop.  There is also a special signal at intersections that the bus uses.  I think at one point they said the timing of lights can be influenced by buses approaching but I'm not sure of the specifics.

 

Either way many were skeptical of the line as well (Ohio has a great urban development site as well and many wanted rail down this corridor).  Here's a recent article about the success of the line.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/04/rtas_healthline_gets_internati.html

 

While I would like rail as well, as long as BRT is done correctly I wouldn't be opposed.  I think it needs to be marketed properly as not just another bus route.  By naming it originally the silver line and now the "Health line" it has done a good job as standing out against a typical RTA bus route in the city.

[SouthEndCLT811]

After my post on BRT how would you all feel about it with a Van Hool trambus?  We still have well kept stations in the median like the street car and use this style of bus.  Honestly hard to tell a difference in the look of these buses versus a streetcar. 

 

Sorry the pictures were big so I didn't want to post them on the page.

 

http://www.vanhool.be/eng/highlights/vanhooltobuild15.html

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Mettis_BRT_Metz.jpg/800px-Mettis_BRT_Metz.jpg

Edited May 21, 2013 by SouthEndCLT811

[MilZ]

I know BRT can be almost as efficient and considerably cheaper than rail, but are there any cases where mass developement has taken place over time along BRT routes.  I can't imagine businesses and apartments being as enthusiastic about setting up shop alongside a bus system the same way they would with LR or trolly.  I could be wrong...

Edited May 21, 2013 by MilZ

[SouthEndCLT811]

I know BRT can be almost as efficient and considerably cheaper than rail, but are there any cases where mass developement has taken place over time along BRT routes.  I can't imagine businesses and apartments being as enthusiastic about setting up shop alongside a bus system the same way they would with LR or trolly.  I could be wrong...

 

A lot of my examples will stem from the Cleveland BRT because I once lived there and used it; but the article above said there has been $4 billion worth of development along the BRT line.  Much has come from Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals.  However the "Midtown" (between Downtown and University Circle) was a dead zone and I know it's starting to see healthy development.  There are also old buildings being redeveloped along Euclid into apartments.  Is this because of BRT or just the trend of people returning to the core of a city?  I cannot answer that.

[tozmervo]

The ULI report on the Healthline, including redevelopment. As SouthEndCLT811 says, the correllation between the development and the line are not clear to me: http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/2012/July/HellendrungHealthLine

[carolinagarnet]

^ I agree completely. When I moved to Charlotte in 2010, I toured a few apartment complexes in South End before settling Uptown. Each leasing center made a point of emphasizing that light rail was literally at the back door (at least in the case of Camden South End and Circle). Given cultural attitudes toward buses in the South and the fact that the Independence line will probably not stop directly at individual complexes, it seems unlikely that a wider socioeconomic swath of the population would be willing to take a bus. A BRT would need to attract people who currently drive in order to increase ridership and I think an aversion to buses and a lack of convenience would probably override the economic appeal.

[Urbanity]

The BRT as a sort of commuter line to Matthews with very limited stops outside of Uptown makes sense to me.  As long as it has dedicated lanes the whole way and runs frequently at rush hours I think it would be a success.

 

That in tandem with a streetcar down Monroe always struck me as the best way to serve the East side.

[DEnd]

The ULI report on the Healthline, including redevelopment. As SouthEndCLT811 says, the correllation between the development and the line are not clear to me: http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/2012/July/HellendrungHealthLine

 

You mean causation, the correlation is clearly there. 

 

I think it's a bit of both the improved service and the trend of people returning to the core.  Basically the improved service has allowed that corridor to take advantage of the trend.

[carolinagarnet]

Based on non-scientific observation, transit seems to direct growth rather than create it from scratch. Would South End have developed organically without light rail? Maybe, but probably not in such a dense, linear pattern. The question when it comes to all of Charlotte's mass transit plans is whether the city will be able to generate enough momentum to develop multiple inner neighborhoods simultaneously (South End and North Charlotte via BLE, West Charlotte via streetcar, Independence via BRT or whatever) with the level of density expected of TOD construction. The areas may develop different personalities organically and therefore may not compete for new residents directly, but based on the homogeneity of the apartments being built right now in each neighborhood this seems unlikely.

 

I often wonder whether it would make sense to hold off a bit on the streetcar and the Independence line knowing that South End is not fully developed, the BLE extension will fuel a lot of new construction between Uptown and NoDa, and neither West Charlotte nor Independence have the density to justify mass transit at the moment without significant new construction. Given the huge cost overruns on the Blue Line, the public does not seem to have an appetite for mass transit (see: streetcar). I don't know if redevlopment in North Charlotte will help support the case for new transit, but timing is something to consider.

[DEnd]

I often wonder whether it would make sense to hold off a bit on the streetcar and the Independence line knowing that South End is not fully developed, the BLE extension will fuel a lot of new construction between Uptown and NoDa, and neither West Charlotte nor Independence have the density to justify mass transit at the moment without significant new construction.

 

I don't know if it makes sense or not but the Independence line ain't happening anytime soon.  Along with the streetcar extension the next focus I think is on the Red Line, as those two kind of go hand in hand.

[cltbwimob]

I often wonder whether it would make sense to hold off a bit on the streetcar and the Independence line knowing that South End is not fully developed, the BLE extension will fuel a lot of new construction between Uptown and NoDa, and neither West Charlotte nor Independence have the density to justify mass transit at the moment without significant new construction. Given the huge cost overruns on the Blue Line, the public does not seem to have an appetite for mass transit (see: streetcar). I don't know if redevlopment in North Charlotte will help support the case for new transit, but timing is something to consider.

The areas around Independence do have the density to justify mass transit.  Furthermore, there are more people that commute into Charlotte from Union County than any other county in the region, and by a margin of 25-30% as compared to York County which has the 2nd highest amount of in-commuters.  We can not ignore their importance to the success of a proposed mass transit system in the Southeast corridor.

 

Also I disagree that the public has no appetite for transit.  The cost overruns were pretty well known at the time of the referendum in the middle of last decade, and yet voters still defeated the proposed halt to the transit tax in a 70% to 30% vote.   And light rail has exceeded its ridership predictions by over 60%. Those numbers suggest there is not just an appetite for transit but a mandate for it.  I do agree however that there is virtually no appetite for streetcar in the city at large.  Polls suggest 2-3 people oppose the streetcar for every one proponent.

Edited May 21, 2013 by cltbwimob

[southslider]

The Plaza-Midwood business district has started to fill in nicely with more density, including along Commonwealth Avenue towards Independence.  Just imagine if there were a transit station along the side of Independence between Hawthorne and Pecan.

[Mobuchu]

I didn't catch much of the show and can't attend tonight, but a few members from the 30 member "transit funding working group" were on Charlotte talks, and will present to the MTC tonight on new ways to help fund the 2030 plan.  Everything from TIF, to advertising, to federal loans to upgrade fright lines for commuter rail are possabilities.  If anyone attends, please share!

 

"The Transit Working Group will present their recommendations to the Metropolitan Transit Commission (MTC) Wednesday (tonight) May 22 from 5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. in Room 267 of the Charlotte Mecklenburg Government Center (CMGC), 600 E. 4th Street. Open to the public."