CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tarhoosier]

Thinking more broadly here, what other use could the MTC ( or whoever) make of the rail line if it were not feasible to create a commuter rail service? Even something not directly rail associated?  What have other cities world wide done with their track and rights that were not used immediately (or at all) for regular transportation services? This corridor is too valuable to be unused.

[davidclt]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

It’s much too early in the morning for this level of grump but, it appears the MTC has agreed to a new transit plan that should a) pass muster with the anti-urban nutjobs in Raleigh: and b) effectively kill rail transit expansion (other than perhaps some rudimentary Red Line service).

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2024-05-29/new-transit-plan-puts-silver-line-at-risk-by-capping-rail-at-40-of-sales-tax-revenues

The plan caps rail projects at 40% of sales tax revenue. 20%is allocated for bus and micro-mobility and 40% for roads (including the Orphan roads which are just a straightup sprawl subsidy).

This allocation ratio basically kills the Silver Line in any phased form, and (probably) limits the Red Line to crapty, low frequency commuter service. I would also bet that the 20% allocation for bus is insufficient for most BRT projects and we will end up with more fancy looking buses and zero dedicated lanes and label it BRT.

This effectively ends any chance for Charlotte to change its land use into something more sustainable. This is really a shame since the Blue Line showed that this sort of change is actually possible here.

I sent mail to the usual suspects (District 1, et al.), plus Driggs, Bokhari and Matthews Mayor Higdon expressing my concern about this plan. I expect one or two anodyne and noncommittal responses.

[Norm2]

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

I sent mail to the usual suspects (District 1, et al.), plus Driggs, Bokhari and Matthews Mayor Higdon expressing my concern about this plan. I expect one or two anodyne and noncommittal responses.

Should probably email the state reps too,

[BarrenLucidity]

One in the hand, I suppose. If it comes up it's worth a yes just to move the fencepost. 

[Nathan2]

The city has shown they are incapable of following through on past promises and effectively running transit that they already have. This decision further harms residents' trust and risks a no vote for anything this November. I don't believe anything gets done effectively if a sales tax is passed based on shortsighted expansion plans and low frequencies. Charlotte needs a leadership overhaul. 

[49er]

It's also Charlotte throwing it's weight around and making unilateral decisions. Matthews was cut from the light rail conversation and instead gets the consolation prize - BRT. 

[CTiger]

Can someone explain why the red line would be prioritized over the silver line in this plan?  I think there would be way more value in a fully fleshed out silver line that can connect E Charlotte to the airport than the red line which just connects N Meck to  Uptown. 
 

To me the red line has lost a lot of its value proposition since Covid and the ability to work from home.  I have also never bought into the idea that the demographic who live in N Meck are going to opt for sitting on a train to work everyday.   Also my worst fear is that the red line just incentivizes people to move to a region that has NO urban infrastructure for getting around outside of the red line to get to and from work. 

[kermit]

5 hours ago, CTiger said:

Can someone explain why the red line would be prioritized over the silver line in this plan?  I think there would be way more value in a fully fleshed out silver line that can connect E Charlotte to the airport than the red line which just connects N Meck to  Uptown.  

• 99% local politics. The Red Line was promised. It got taken away and 3 voting members of the MTC got very upset about it. The Silver Line east cancellation only generates heat from one voting member of the MTC
• 98% state politics. The Red Line is seen as a valued transit improvement in Raleigh since it appeals to N Meck voters. Silver is much more maligned since it is seen as largely serving deep blue Charlotte. A sales tax vote was never going to get permission from Raleigh without the Red Line.
• 1% The Red Line will be significantly cheaper than the Silver to Matthews since the ROW already exists

I agree that the Red Line is stupid from a mobility perspective. It will always be slower and less convenient (in uptown) than the Metro-Rapid toll lane BRT that is on the way. Unless it is run every 30 minutes or better it is unlikely to have much impact on land use either,

Edited May 31 by kermit

[carolinaboy]

Dumb question from the ill-informed me, is a commuter rail line limited to only those who utilize it for transportation to a work place? In other words, is there a police force on each train ensuring only riders are going to or coming home from work? If not, why can't it just be viewed as an additional transportation option for people who live in one area to get to another area without driving an automobile? I don't get the animosity towards another potential mobility option as part of a wide-ranging regional transit system. It is one component to add to light rail, street car, BRT, Bus, automobile, ride-share, scooter, motorcycle, ox-cart, foot, transporter......

[CTiger]

12 minutes ago, kermit said:

• 99% local politics. The Red Line was promised. It got taken away and 3 voting members of the MTC got very upset about it. The Silver Line east cancellation only generates heat from one voting member of the MTC
• 98% state politics. The Red Line is seen as a valued transit improvement in Raleigh since it appeals to N Meck voters. Silver is much more maligned since it is seen as largely serving deep blue Charlotte. A sales tax vote was never going to get permission from Raleigh without the Red Line.
• 1% The Red Line will be significantly cheaper than the Silver to Matthews since the ROW already exists

I agree that the Red Line is stupid from a mobility perspective. It will always be slower and less convenient (in uptown) than the Metro-Rapid toll lane buses that are on the way. Unless it is run every 30 minutes or better it won’t have much impact on land use either,

Thank you, this is an insightful albeit frustrating response. 

[lit]

So I’m never gonna get to ride the choo choo train to a Checkers Game?

[ajfunder]

While not ideal, if the commuter service runs bidirectional all day at decent headways, it is still a vast improvement to nothing. That being said, inbound and outbound peak only, which I don’t believe was being considered in the most recent iterations would be a disaster.

Wasn’t the most recent iteration bidirectional,  half hours at peak and hourly off peak late into the evening? That’s better than a lot of commuter rail services. Not perfect, but a lot better than nothing and peak only.

[kermit]

 

6 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Dumb question from the ill-informed me, is a commuter rail line limited to only those who utilize it for transportation to a work place? In other words, is there a police force on each train ensuring only riders are going to or coming home from work? If not, why can't it just be viewed as an additional transportation option for people who live in one area to get to another area without driving an automobile?

Nah. It just another form of transit like any other. Anyone can ride. The term commuter came from the nature of the service (from the distant suburbs into the urban core, wide stop spacing). It is another mobility option (which is good), but if CATS designs it to primarily serve traditional commuters  (I doubt they will), it will provide nearly zero mobility benefits outside of 9-5 uptown workers since trains would travel in one direction only in the morning and back again in the evening (basically). The wide stop spacing (due to the length of trip and type of trains being used), and relatively low frequencies mean that the Red Line will not be able to provide much circulation service (which really requires sub 10 minute frequencies)

4 hours ago, ajfunder said:

While not ideal, if the commuter service runs bidirectional all day at decent headways, it is still a vast improvement to nothing. That being said, inbound and outbound peak only, which I don’t believe was being considered in the most recent iterations would be a disaster.

Wasn’t the most recent iteration bidirectional,  half hours at peak and hourly off peak late into the evening? That’s better than a lot of commuter rail services. Not perfect, but a lot better than nothing and peak only.

I don’t think we can meaningfully speculate on potential service frequencies until a) we hear more about the deal w NS; b) make a deal w CSX for use of the grade crossing to bring trains into Gateway; and c) news about Gateway station completion including the still non-existant commuter platform.

I am worried about how trains will get turned at Gateway. I am sure they will be push pull units, but they will require a break test at each turn and will need to not foul NS and CSX and Amtrak too badly. I doubt they can pull off anything more frequent than 30 minute service given how complicated the turn will be. It would be much easier if the could run through to Rock Hill or Gastonia.

Edited May 31 by kermit

[Nathan2]

2 hours ago, ajfunder said:

While not ideal, if the commuter service runs bidirectional all day at decent headways, it is still a vast improvement to nothing. That being said, inbound and outbound peak only, which I don’t believe was being considered in the most recent iterations would be a disaster.

Wasn’t the most recent iteration bidirectional,  half hours at peak and hourly off peak late into the evening? That’s better than a lot of commuter rail services. Not perfect, but a lot better than nothing and peak only.

In every redline meeting, they have stated they are looking to operate with hourly frequency outside of a two-hour period that is slightly more frequent ( though this frequency will not operate in both directions)

[southslider]

30-minute service only in peak direction during peak commute periods. Otherwise 60-minute service in both directions.   While the railroad has little freight traffic, it is overwhelmingly a single track.   New track sidings will enable bidirectional, though infrequent, service.

[Desert Power]

6 hours ago, southslider said:

30-minute service only in peak direction during peak commute periods. Otherwise 60-minute service in both directions

Oof

[southslider]

3 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Oof

Yep, buses on 77 already run more often and provide a faster trip, but it ain't a  choo-choo.  Alas, the lure of the train may entice voters, but any project still needs a strong cost-benefit rating to be awarded a federal grant. Frankly, Silver Line has too large of a cost, and Red Line too low of a benefit, for either project to easily secure a grant, even if the local match has finally been figured out.

[Urbanography]

Cutting the Silver Line makes me sick to my stomach. A few words from the state and suddenly years worth of progress is thrown down the drain by the MTC. Charlotte's sustainability was banking off of the TOD that the Silver Line promised. We have so little time to do anything about the climate crisis. We needed this train. 

[Bull City Rising]

So as a Cornelius resident who's participated in a couple of the spring info sessions, I'd like to provide a different perspective.

First, I hate that our state's political situation is leading our elected officials to feel like they have to make choices like this that divide the region rather than uniting us around a transit-oriented future. Sadly, as long as Republicans in places like Kings Mountain and Rockingham and Spruce Pine are in power, our cities get little to nothing.  (As I recall, even when the Dems were in power in the 2000s, getting rural legislators on board with any urban funding for transportation was also difficult.)

First, there is no BRT service to Lake Norman today. Frequent all day schedules were proposed in 2020, but canceled during COVID. What exists is weekday only commuter hour service, basically, with one or two reverse-commute frequencies at each rush hour. No weekend service. The buses are commuter/coach quality and CATS has invested in non-BRT park and rides, but it's not a BRT service.

Indeed, a proposal does exist to make BRT-esque stations or improvements for a 77 BRT service. At exit 23, this would include an in-median boarding with dedicated bus left lane exit to an elevated platform. It's not as easy a story at other exits, though. At exit 28, northbound buses would exit, take the DDI to the southbound entrance, re-enter southbound, then take a reserved (gated?) exit to the roadways to reach the Jetton Rd. park and ride. And Davidson would be unchanged from its current exit. Fully implementing these plans at the various exits would itself be a significant capital expense.

Now, I am in support of a regional rail proposal for the Red Line -- emphatically not a commuter rail service, since I agree that if all we're talking about is commuter pattern focused service to Uptown, the buses can meet that. The characteristics that were shared during the open houses include hourly service all day weekdays up to 9pm southbound and 11pm or midnight northbound, with 30 minute headways in peak directions at rush hours, and would also include weekend service.

Hourly regional rail service isn't SEPTA regional rail quality, but it's better than almost any recent non-LRT, non-Metro system in the US.  When I think about the key purposes -- transporting folks to jobs, but also serving residents, college students, Lowe's campus workers, families and others who want to go into Charlotte for jobs, appointments, cultural activities, sports, etc. -- hourly service seems fine to me.

Especially if this is designed using modern rolling stock like a Stadler FLIRT, the service quality shouldn't feel all that different from LRT save for the frequencies.

I am bracing for the costs but also hopeful that CATS will use their heads and look at the original early 2000s Ottawa regional rail train as inspiration. (Not the troubled version of it from the 2010s, but the affordable initial service proposal.). Let's keep as much of the line single-tracked as possible and use precision scheduling for minimal double tracking. We don't need LRT quality stations with all the features and architecture, just give a simple station design - I'd rather the platforms be built to accommodate four car future demand than initial two-car sets. Partner with local developers to build parking decks with wrapper multifamily and retail, which should be possible at several of the stations. Other than the NC 73 flyover planned and the replacement of the NC 115 bridge at the Cornelius/Davidson, let's avoid building major elevated segments. And I hope they look closely at current or future hydrogen or battery options from Stadler in lieu of trying to electrify the line, even if that means DMU to begin with.  (Electrification, while ideal, would likely cause more challenges with freight operations.)

I'd actually prefer CATS to look at a western, more frequent Red Line extension to the airport, running 30 minutes all day, to provide neighborhood and airport connections. Not LRT quality, but the savings could potentially be used to improve headways and scheduling with the Gold Line and allow for Blue-Gold-Red connections. However, the CATS planners sense no NS interest in that, despite that being NCRR corridor and the state already looking at a station there.  Of course, the former now fired airport director helped F that up when he gave in on the multimodal link instead of holding it as a negotiation tool, but that's been well reported elsewhere.

If all that's proposed is replacing commuter only hours with rail -- let's make 77 BRT work instead. But I am hopeful that we will be looking at a far better option to emerge from the current service re-imagining.

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Bull City Rising said:

I'd actually prefer CATS to look at a western, more frequent Red Line extension to the airport, running 30 minutes all day, to provide neighborhood and airport connections. Not LRT quality, but the savings could potentially be used to improve headways and scheduling with the Gold Line and allow for Blue-Gold-Red connections. However, the CATS planners sense no NS interest in that, despite that being NCRR corridor and the state already looking at a station there. …

Thanks for the thoughtful post!

One small nitpick, I agree that the Red Line would be MUCH more useful if it ran through Uptown. Unfortunately the NCRR corridor ends before the tracks from Kannapolis reach N Tryon. In addition to the Red Line, NS owns everything from ADM (where the Red Line joins the NS main) South. Since the NS main is quite congested, and they want to keep the entry to the shiny new intermodal yard clear, running any Red Line Service across Uptown will require an additional track or two at the least. I suspect that NS will feel like they have done plenty for Charlotte after the Red Line gets settled so any negotiation here will be a bear.

Edited June 2 by kermit

[Bull City Rising]

17 minutes ago, kermit said:

Thanks for the thoughtful post!

One small nitpick, I agree that the Red Line would be MUCH more useful if it ran through Uptown. Unfortunately the NCRR corridor ends before the tracks reach N Tryon. NS owns everything from ADM (where the Red Line joins the NS main) South. Since the NS main is quite congested, and they want to keep the entry to the shiny new intermodal yard clear, running any Red Line Service across Uptown will require an additional track or two at the least. I suspect that NS will feel like they have done plenty for Charlotte after the Red Line gets settled.

A-ha. I guess when they said the NCRR ran from Morehead City to Charlotte back in the 19th century, the airport wasn't *quite* what the legislature had in mind for Charlotte!

Given that, I can understand better the value of the first phase of the SIlver Line to connect the airport and western Charlotte with uptown including the linkage it'll provide to the Blue Line (Gold Line notwithstanding).  

[southslider]

If there isn't a Silver Line to Matthews, how will Silver Line from the Airport even connect with Blue Line?

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, Bull City Rising said:

A-ha. I guess when they said the NCRR ran from Morehead City to Charlotte back in the 19th century, the airport wasn't *quite* what the legislature had in mind for Charlotte!

Given that, I can understand better the value of the first phase of the SIlver Line to connect the airport and western Charlotte with uptown including the linkage it'll provide to the Blue Line (Gold Line notwithstanding).  

I believe the original end of the NCRR was right around CTC. It was built to connect to the Charlotte and South Carolina rr (which became the original Blue Line)

[kermit]

7 minutes ago, southslider said:

If there isn't a Silver Line to Matthews, how will Silver Line from the Airport even connect with Blue Line?

Interline with Gold? 

New connection using Carson? 

P&N underpass at the stadium?

Street running on 6th or 10th?

Taking lanes from the Belk? (there are plenty!)

 

[jjwilli]

Doubt this is feasible at all. Yet it would be nice to route the NS trains away from Uptown completely. Find an alternate route from the airport to the NCRR trains on the north east side of town. Follow 485 around?