The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Nathan_in_DC]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:17 AM, markhollin said:

Big changes are coming to a 2.5-mile section of Nolensville Pike between Heywood Lane and McCall St.

The US Department of Transportation allocated $13 million for the “We Are Nolensville Pike” project. Let’s explore how Nashville plans to utilize the federal grant funding for safety improvements along the corridor.

The funds, supplemented by an additional $3.2 million from Metro, will support safety enhancements along the span that will includeThe upgrades include:

- New sidewalk connections

- Adding street lighting

- Crossing improvements like pedestrian hybrid beacons and high-visibility crosswalks

- Bike lane enhancements

- Intersection changes

- Signal timing adjustments

- Stay tuned for future updates — NDOT plans to work with TDOT, WeGo Public Transit, and other groups to implement the upgrades.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2023/12/13/nolensville-pike-13m-grand-money-nashville-improve-pedestrian-safety/71907781007/

This is great. That's a stretch of road that needs improvement badly from a safety standpoint. Having a massive stroad through a growing area with lots of pedestrians and transit commuters is just a recipe for disaster. Much as I love better bike infrastructure, I understand the focus on pedestrian and transit infrastructure here...A road died with traffic calming in the form of bus lanes, wider sidewalks, better crosswalks, etc., will also help make this more bike friendly.

[Bos2Nash]

23 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Alternatives?

The one thing Nashville does have going for it is the park and greenway system that is being created. If there is a viable way to further extend the greenway along the many creeks going south or even parallel to the Interstates that may be a win. I do not know how much room there is or could be to do that. If you look along I 24 there is a lot of dead space along the interstate. Could they do something along the train tracks that run down I 65?  How much could CSX give up for a bike lane? We are talking a bike lane only and pedestrian free. Also, what about liability?

I think Mill Creek is the main creek on the map below that runs through the Antioch area and this would be the perfect line for a bike trial.

This is apparently missing a very key point to why bikeways on streets are important, so I will quote this section from my previous post

On 12/16/2023 at 6:56 PM, Bos2Nash said:

The other thing we have to keep in mind about bikes is putting them on greenways - away from building (specifically commercial) frontage - doesn't really provide a solution. It provides a recreational area to ride one's bike, but that's it. It doesn't provide a person the opportunity to go to the grocery store/bank/coffee shop/etc via their bike. To get to those places you still need to utilize the roads or the sidewalks. Yes, some folks would commute to those locations, but what about all those customers to would visit those locations? The mindset (something Luvemtall referenced) is a big aspect to this. Many folks will say, "well you cant go to the grocery store on your bike!" and I would say, will maybe if the mindset was to go to the grocery store more frequently and bought less in bulk (and wasted less, because there can be significant waste in bulk buying) then grocery shopping could be more feasible on a bike or even a cargo bike. Again, having the equality with the ROW is a very big part of that answer. And having a bike on the ROW should be safe and protected. A bike is much closer in speed/weight/danger to a pedestrian, so the idea of putting a pedestrian in the middle of a 35 mph (even though the road is designed for 55+) traffic lane won't fly, so neither should a bike.

I think greenways are a great recreational use for runners/cyclists/walkers/etc, but they are NOT a replacement for ROW equality. As mentioned above, those paths can get very crowded and makes them quite dangerous. While bikes are closer to pedestrians than they are cars, that does not mean we want them mixed together everywhere. This was the main reason I was very critical of the  mixed-use path along Woodland for the EN Spokes project. 

[Luvemtall]

First and foremost, I have nothing against bikes or those that enjoy using them. But they will never in America, be an alternative form of transportation. And I mean  as a general form for the masses, it will not be the choice for most people that decide to not drive cars. I’m not saying that proper infrastructure should not be incorporated, especially within the core of major cities. But we aren’t going to be seeing bike lanes running parallel to every single street throughout this city or any other. Just as we’re not going to see daily commuters hopping on bikes and riding 15-20 or more miles into downtown to go to work. The fact of adverse weather alone, will make that a non existent element along with the time to do such things. So while I agree that yes , there’s a need and a justification to have bike lanes available in the city and the safety of bikers is just as vital as any other , the municipalities have to weigh their budgets to fund what infrastructure needs will benefit the larger majority of its population 

[PruneTracy]

TDOT's ten-year plan is out: Build With Us (tn.gov)

Edited December 18, 2023 by PruneTracy

[PaulChinetti]

As someone said above, if we stop thinking about them for commutes then it makes WAY more sense. Both my wife and I work at home so we have zero commute. I'd love to throw the kids in a cargo bike and take them to school but the only protected bike lane on the route is 12 South. I'm not going to put them in harms way with all the terrible drivers on the road. We walk around the neighborhood all the time and we could go farther if it wasn't the worst to do. 

2nd, 4th (Nolensville) Ave S are kinda ok. 8th Ave S and Craighead are terrible. I'm not about to ride a bike with my 4 and 2 year old on the road with people doing 50mph with no or barely connected sidewalks, let along no protected bike lanes. 

[Bos2Nash]

There are a few folks who are saying bike lanes need to be on every road, but not everyone. If folks look at my post from the Gallatin Pike meeting, bike lanes only present on the Main Street portion of the redo, the more northern portions puts bikes into a shared transit lane with the dedicated bus lane (bus headways of 10 minutes creates a safe environment for cyclists to be in a dedicated lane). That is a product of prioritizing ROW width and logically thinking through needs. The Main Street section provides bike lanes due to the abundance of commercial activation we should strive for in the next generation or two. Yes, there will be bike lanes/cycle track on Woodland, but both Woodland and Gallatin are major connectors for EN to downtown so it would make sense to have the choice to ride along both of those lanes. When we also consider that JRP will be grounded eventually and everything that will happen on the EB, it makes even more sense to put them on the street. 

This cross section takes ZERO space away from cars, while also providing ample space for cyclists and pedestrians. I am trying to get you folks think sensibly, that is all.

[PaulChinetti]

What is this, I don't see what just the red lines are on the key?

[donNdonelson2]

5 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

What is this, I don't see what just the red lines are on the key?

I think those red lines mark the separation of the four regions of the project map.

[PaulChinetti]

Oh duh that makes sense, didn't cross my mind ha. 

[markhollin]

Drivers using Interstate 24 between downtown Nashville and Murfreesboro will be the first in Tennessee to have paid express lanes available, under a plan the state released on Monday.

The state Department of Transportation has deemed that stretch of highway as the strongest, "most obvious and best investment" for adding fast-track toll lanes. The state is calling them "choice lanes" because they'll give drivers an option to speed up their trip while keeping the number of existing lanes the same.

TDOT also aims to add a toll lane along Interstate 65 South between downtown Nashville and Spring Hill, though it's pursuing the I-24 corridor first. Both potential projects stood out as Greater Nashville highlights within a 10-year construction plan TDOT published on Dec. 18, showing how it would spend $3.3 billion of new aid approved by the General Assembly earlier this year.

Some other notable Greater Nashville projects include:

- widening I-24 in Montgomery County, northwest of Nashville

- building a bypass on State Route 109 around Portland, "to complete … the corridor improvements"

- replacing eight bridges

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2023/12/18/tdot-choice-lanes-toll-highway-investment-tma.html


And at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2023/12/18/tennessee-eyes-toll-choice-lanes-in-nashville-knoxville-chattanooga-tdot-gov-bill-lee/71958290007/


And also behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/state/state-targets-nashville-interstates-for-toll-lane-project/article_589e7c90-9de6-11ee-a186-175cb5493c3e.html


Here are the plans for Region 3 (in/around Nashville):

[smeagolsfree]

Here is the 10 year growth plan.

10-Year Project Plan_20.pdf (tn.gov)

[Jarno6006]

4 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

First and foremost, I have nothing against bikes or those that enjoy using them. But they will never in America, be an alternative form of transportation. And I mean  as a general form for the masses, it will not be the choice for most people that decide to not drive cars. I’m not saying that proper infrastructure should not be incorporated, especially within the core of major cities. But we aren’t going to be seeing bike lanes running parallel to every single street throughout this city or any other. Just as we’re not going to see daily commuters hopping on bikes and riding 15-20 or more miles into downtown to go to work. The fact of adverse weather alone, will make that a non existent element along with the time to do such things. So while I agree that yes , there’s a need and a justification to have bike lanes available in the city and the safety of bikers is just as vital as any other , the municipalities have to weigh their budgets to fund what infrastructure needs will benefit the larger majority of its population 

I think we agree on bikes.  I worked downtown for years and have driven Uber part-time for years.  During that time I don't recall every seeing a bike  on one of the core business district  bike lanes and maybe 5 or 6 on any bike lane.     Take 12th Ave for example.  I have yet to see a bike in that new bike lane with the huge concrete curb that seperate bike lane and road, but I have seen a pedestrian fall trying to cross them.  Also if you see the tires marks that have hit those curbs and the huge chunks of the contrete that have been knocked out already,  its a blessing no bikes were on them, not to mention the damages to cars that has been caused.  I hate to imagine the nightmares coming for the poor folks on Nolensville road.  I wouldn't get in a bike lane on Nolensville road if I had 9 lives, but that's just me. 

[PaulChinetti]

59 minutes ago, Jarno6006 said:

Take 12th Ave for example.  I have yet to see a bike in that new bike lane with the huge concrete curb that seperate bike lane and road, but I have seen a pedestrian fall trying to cross them.  Also if you see the tires marks that have hit those curbs and the huge chunks of the contrete that have been knocked out already,  its a blessing no bikes were on them, not to mention the damages to cars that has been caused. 

Exactly why nobody wants to ride on a road WITHOUT protected bike lanes, you see what happens to the protected ones. Every little bit of protection makes people feel safer and more confident to be able to ride. 

And the 12 South bike lines on both ends dump you out into roads without bike lanes at all. It's almost like it's a holistic system that can't be patchworked. 

The sidewalks being protected even more is nice as well.

[MontanaGuy]

58 minutes ago, Jarno6006 said:

I think we agree on bikes.  I worked downtown for years and have driven Uber part-time for years.  During that time I don't recall every seeing a bike  on one of the core business district  bike lanes and maybe 5 or 6 on any bike lane.     Take 12th Ave for example.  I have yet to see a bike in that new bike lane with the huge concrete curb that seperate bike lane and road, but I have seen a pedestrian fall trying to cross them. 

That seems to reflect badly on the "If you build it they will come!" philosophy behind many of these projects.  It seems like we should get some valid data on how much the existing projects are actually being used before we build a lot more of them. 

[nashvillain_too]

1 hour ago, Jarno6006 said:

I think we agree on bikes.  I worked downtown for years and have driven Uber part-time for years.  During that time I don't recall every seeing a bike  on one of the core business district  bike lanes and maybe 5 or 6 on any bike lane.     Take 12th Ave for example.  I have yet to see a bike in that new bike lane with the huge concrete curb that seperate bike lane and road, but I have seen a pedestrian fall trying to cross them.  Also if you see the tires marks that have hit those curbs and the huge chunks of the contrete that have been knocked out already,  its a blessing no bikes were on them, not to mention the damages to cars that has been caused.  I hate to imagine the nightmares coming for the poor folks on Nolensville road.  I wouldn't get in a bike lane on Nolensville road if I had 9 lives, but that's just me. 

So, again with the bike lanes thing. 12th ave. South is the only concrete protected bike lane in the city. It currently connects to ZERO other protected bike lanes. If 12th South were the only paved road, how many cars do you think you'd see driving on it? Transportation infrastructure only works if it's part of a NETWORK. Are cyclists supposed to teleport around to the various patches of cycling infrastructure? 

Also, have you heard of confirmation bias? Maybe look it up. 

20 minutes ago, MontanaGuy said:

That seems to reflect badly on the "If you build it they will come!" philosophy behind many of these projects.  It seems like we should get some valid data on how much the existing projects are actually being used before we build a lot more of them. 

Traffic engineers and politicians overbuild roads based on completely fabricated data all the time. 

https://www.cnu.org/publicsquare/2021/09/09/every-traffic-projection-wrong

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/12/17/study-transpo-agencies-are-terrible-at-predicting-traffic-levels

Edited December 18, 2023 by nashvillain_too

[Nash_12South]

I've lived in 12South/Belmont for nearly 12 years and walk it every nice afternoon, usually at rush hour. I see maybe 1-2 commuters on bikes a day. Recreational biker riders, yes, but not even a lot of those.  Many of the side streets are too narrow and our sidewalks to crappy in many areas for safe bike riding.  I see lots of walkers, even a few with groceries. I don't see many riders on my drives into (or back from) downtown along 12th and never have. No bias involved, just I don't see them and I'm certainly looking for them. Belmont and 10th have somewhat protected designated bike lanes, rarely used beyond recreational users. No bias, just stating what I see. 

[MontanaGuy]

6 minutes ago, nashvillain_too said:

Traffic engineers and politicians overbuild roads based on completely fabricated data all the time. 

I'm sure you're right about that but the point I'm trying to make is that before we commit to a widescale project we should really feel certain that what we finally build is going to be used and appreciated by the community.  Is there any small scale project that's already in place that you could point to as a success which demonstrates that we should be building more?  

[nashvillain_too]

17 minutes ago, Nash_12South said:

I've lived in 12South/Belmont for nearly 12 years and walk it every nice afternoon, usually at rush hour. I see maybe 1-2 commuters on bikes a day. Recreational biker riders, yes, but not even a lot of those.  Many of the side streets are too narrow and our sidewalks to crappy in many areas for safe bike riding.  I see lots of walkers, even a few with groceries. I don't see many riders on my drives into (or back from) downtown along 12th and never have. No bias involved, just I don't see them and I'm certainly looking for them. Belmont and 10th have somewhat protected designated bike lanes, rarely used beyond recreational users. No bias, just stating what I see. 

Again, you all are completely missing the point of there needing to be a network of connected bikeways. 

You even state that the surrounding areas are not safe to ride bikes... 

Edited December 18, 2023 by nashvillain_too

[PaulChinetti]

To take a bike trip to Fenwick's which we go to for breakfast on the weekend a fair amount. 

Home > 1st Ave S > Hart Street > (Cross 2nd Ave S where the only legal place to cross is at the intersection of 2nd Ave/Chestnut or the crosswalk on Nolensville in front of the Fairgrounds entrance.)   > 4th Ave S (Nolensville) > Craighead St > 8th Ave S > Fenwick's

That entire trip, there are marked bike lanes on maybe 100 feet of that trip, on Nolensville. Other than that zero bike lanes, ZERO. Not to mention numerous places where you have to jay walk or go 100s of feet out of your way to cross legally sometimes WAY more. 

Look at a trip you make around your neighborhood in like a 2-3 miles radius. Our sidewalk/crosswalk network is a joke, let alone our bike "network". Network is the key here folks. 

[BNAfan]

1 hour ago, Nash_12South said:

I've lived in 12South/Belmont for nearly 12 years and walk it every nice afternoon, usually at rush hour. I see maybe 1-2 commuters on bikes a day. Recreational biker riders, yes, but not even a lot of those.  Many of the side streets are too narrow and our sidewalks to crappy in many areas for safe bike riding.  I see lots of walkers, even a few with groceries. I don't see many riders on my drives into (or back from) downtown along 12th and never have. No bias involved, just I don't see them and I'm certainly looking for them. Belmont and 10th have somewhat protected designated bike lanes, rarely used beyond recreational users. No bias, just stating what I see. 

I can provided my own anecdotal evidence to the contrary.  I drive through there every weekday 7:30-8:00.  I see several commuters on bikes, including 4 this morning when it was 30 degrees.  There are also daily commuters on bikes on Belmont and on the Music Row corridors. E-bikes have really made a difference, as well, in the number of  commuters.

Bike lanes are also a better solution for scooter riding. I have never understood why the revenue from scooter permits/fines/etc are not tied to bike lane construction.  

[MontanaGuy]

25 minutes ago, BNAfan said:

Bike lanes are also a better solution for scooter riding. I have never understood why the revenue from scooter permits/fines/etc are not tied to bike lane construction.  

That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of.  Scooters are all over the place downtown but it doesn't seem like many of the people who ride them know what they're doing and I've had to dodge them many times on the sidewalks where they're not even supposed to be.  This is a phenomenon that's happening all over the world and it looks like it's here to stay so it would make sense to try to take some steps to increase safety and somehow integrate them into the rest of the traffic.  You also see them parked everywhere where tourists have apparently left them so you've rentals as well as locals who own them to get around and then bring them home.  I know my realtor has one and uses it quite a bit.  I never see bicycles downtown except for a few along the river but that's about it.  I'm glad you brought that up because it changes the whole conversation!

[Luvemtall]

First of all, bikes/scooters DO NOT belong on sidewalks , those are for walking. Secondly, as evidenced by the above post. Yes , I agree that some sort of networked bike lanes need to be designed. But again it’s never going to be on every road, so that every dwelling can have access to a safe dedicated path to wherever they choose to go. There’s going to be areas where there’s no bike lane, if you’re looking to go door to door. And also even if 100 people use a bike lane on any particular road, there’s still probably going to be 1000 cars using the road in the same period of time. So how does a municipality respond to that fact of a 10 to 1  ratio? What do you think they are going to fund ? I think it’s going to be the most used form, again I don’t have anything against bikes/ scooters, and you all have valid points. But if you’re looking for a network of bike lanes, connecting every corner of the city that’s a tall order to fill, and somehow I’m sure it’s not going to happen.

[smeagolsfree]

To add protected bike lanes in this city is simply impossible because many of the roads are simply too narrow to do it on both sides and also to have bus service, sidewalks, & car traffic. Even if there were connected protected bike lanes would there be enough riders, the answer is no.  I know DJ disagrees with me along with others on this board, but the stats do not back you up. 1% is the best you will ever do. This is not Davis CA. where there are thousands of college students that ride their bikes and if they did, they would not ride them downtown. Nashville is not Portland or NYC. The terrain nor the layout is the same. The road layout here is not conducive to this no matter how much they try. Also, when I was in Boston, I did not see bike commuters Craig, so get that out of your head. That city is for sure not a bike commuting city. The cars will run over bikers the same as they will pedestrians there. If there were a lot of commuters, I did not see them.

Again, you will never get past the 1% mark and in the south, it will be a lot lower.

[nashvillain_too]

You know, there are lots of resources out there with real-world examples of what multi-modal infrastructure looks like. It doesn't, in fact, mean separated bike lanes everywhere. If streets are appropriately calm, there's no need for separate lanes or even sidewalks.  

Bike lanes are kind of a means to an end, which is a safe city that is pleasant and easy to navigate for everyone--children, seniors, and disabled included--and where a 2-ton wheeled appendage isn't a requirement for participation in life. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by nashvillain_too

[Jarno6006]

14 hours ago, BNAfan said:

I can provided my own anecdotal evidence to the contrary.  I drive through there every weekday 7:30-8:00.  I see several commuters on bikes, including 4 this morning when it was 30 degrees.  There are also daily commuters on bikes on Belmont and on the Music Row corridors. E-bikes have really made a difference, as well, in the number of  commuters.

Bike lanes are also a better solution for scooter riding. I have never understood why the revenue from scooter permits/fines/etc are not tied to bike lane construction.  

So if my math is right, 4 bikers equals roughly 2 cars.  Would anybody have voted to build that elaborate bike lane system to eliminate two cars during probably the busiest half hour of the day?  I just wonder if the people in some neighborhoods who have paid city taxes for decades and still don't have sidewalks would have favored it.