The Plaza

[JRS1]

also, noticed a coming soon sign on build out for Bola italian restaurant, it now says, The Black Olive Coming Soon, I belieive.

Anyone know, did this thing change hands or just names?!?

name change only... and a much better name I must say from "bola". "Black Olive" is a great name; might even be able to brand it...

[spenser1058]

BayWalk, St. Pete's originally highly successful "entertainment center" downtown when it opened in 2000, is falling on hard times. They note in the article that the success of the rest of downtown has, ironically, affected them. Particularly of note, I thought, was that the Muvico theater is in talks to reduce the number of theaters in favor of a marine science exhibit. Perhaps some lessons for us:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/growth/article659290.ece

Edited July 7, 2008 by spenser1058

[OCF]

BayWalk, St. Pete's originally highly successful "entertainment center" downtown when it opened in 2000, is falling on hard times. They note in the article that the success of the rest of downtown has, ironically, affected them. Paricularly of note, I thought, was that the Muvico theater is in talks to reduce the number of theaters in favor of a marine science exhibit. Perhaps some lessons for us:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/growth/article659290.ece

I think the main problem with these types of developments are that they are just well placed over-glamorized strip malls. There is nothing wrong with that except that the only vendors who can afford to rent space there are usually big commercial retailers. In the end though, the consumers who prefer those types of goods eventually return to the suburban malls with better and free parking. I'm sure mom and pops stores could do well but the rents there are such that a mom and pops shop may not survive there. I think it's always a better idea to renovate the existing buildings and create a more diverse economic environment where many different types of business could afford to do business in the downtown core. The only downtown mall I've seen do well is Riverplace in Providence. Every other attempt has gone the way of Baywalk and the one in DT Fort Lauderdale.

[mrh3]

I think the main problem with these types of developments are that they are just well placed over-glamorized strip malls. There is nothing wrong with that except that the only vendors who can afford to rent space there are usually big commercial retailers. In the end though, the consumers who prefer those types of goods eventually return to the suburban malls with better and free parking. I'm sure mom and pops stores could do well but the rents there are such that a mom and pops shop may not survive there. I think it's always a better idea to renovate the existing buildings and create a more diverse economic environment where many different types of business could afford to do business in the downtown core. The only downtown mall I've seen do well is Riverplace in Providence. Every other attempt has gone the way of Baywalk and the one in DT Fort Lauderdale.

The center should be repositioned as a combination office/retail complex with community space thrown in at a discounted rate. Maybe a conversion adding some type of retail coud work as well. Those usually perform better in CBD's.

[OCF]

The center should be repositioned as a combination office/retail complex with community space thrown in at a discounted rate. Maybe a conversion adding some type of retail coud work as well. Those usually perform better in CBD's.

Agreed, why not offer some of the space to the community at a disounted rate. At least than we would be getting a social benefit out of it. Put say a an community art's studio or day program for kids.

[Boomer136]

I think the main problem with these types of developments are that they are just well placed over-glamorized strip malls. There is nothing wrong with that except that the only vendors who can afford to rent space there are usually big commercial retailers. In the end though, the consumers who prefer those types of goods eventually return to the suburban malls with better and free parking. I'm sure mom and pops stores could do well but the rents there are such that a mom and pops shop may not survive there. I think it's always a better idea to renovate the existing buildings and create a more diverse economic environment where many different types of business could afford to do business in the downtown core. The only downtown mall I've seen do well is Riverplace in Providence. Every other attempt has gone the way of Baywalk and the one in DT Fort Lauderdale.

And what's it's name in Seattle?

[FLheat]

WESH news had a teaser at the end of it's 6:00 newscast about "downtown no longer a ghost-town" as a new operator of the movie theatre will be revealed at 11 PM...anyone know anything about this?

[UPSDAN]

open by December if city ponies up 3.5 million up front and a 2.5 million loan....

[Hisma]

someone let us know the outcome of this story please!

[spenser1058]

From OBJ:

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/sto...tml?jst=b_ln_hl

Ihave to say I'm a little skeptical about offering the $3.5 million up front if they're sticking with the idea of atypical movieplex. As we've seen with BayWalk, CocoWalk, the Las Olas project, etc., that concept seems to have come and gone, especially given the demographic mix we're looking for.

If we're to subsidize this, and as others have suggested, let's get Enzian and United Arts on behalf of some of the small theater groups involved to see what we might be able to provide as part of this.

[Camillo Sitte]

I think the main problem with these types of developments are that they are just well placed over-glamorized strip malls. There is nothing wrong with that except that the only vendors who can afford to rent space there are usually big commercial retailers. In the end though, the consumers who prefer those types of goods eventually return to the suburban malls with better and free parking. I'm sure mom and pops stores could do well but the rents there are such that a mom and pops shop may not survive there. I think it's always a better idea to renovate the existing buildings and create a more diverse economic environment where many different types of business could afford to do business in the downtown core. The only downtown mall I've seen do well is Riverplace in Providence. Every other attempt has gone the way of Baywalk and the one in DT Fort Lauderdale.

There are actually quite a few successful purpose-built prototypical "urban/downtown" malls; Santa Monica Place - Santa Monica, CA, Water Tower Place - Chicago, IL, the Houston and Dallas Gallerias, Pacific Place - Seattle, WA, Copley Place - Boston, Farmers Market and Century Center - Los Angeles, etc.

And then there are plenty of historic buildings renovated into traditional national retailer malls that are successful, Union Station - St. Louis, MO. - Union Station - Washington D.C.,

And then there are any number of successful themed hybrids; Faneuil Hall - Boston, 3rd Street Promenade - Santa Monica, Fisherman's Warf - San Francisco, Pioneer Square - Seattle, Inner Harbor, Baltimore, etc.

[spenser1058]

There are actually quite a few successful purpose-built prototypical "urban/downtown" malls; Santa Monica Place - Santa Monica, CA, Water Tower Place - Chicago, IL, the Houston and Dallas Gallerias, Pacific Place - Seattle, WA, Copley Place - Boston, Farmers Market and Century Center - Los Angeles, etc.

And then there are plenty of historic buildings renovated into traditional national retailer malls that are successful, Union Station - St. Louis, MO. - Union Station - Washington D.C.,

And then there are any number of successful themed hybrids; Faneuil Hall - Boston, 3rd Street Promenade - Santa Monica, Fisherman's Warf - San Francisco, Pioneer Square - Seattle, Inner Harbor, Baltimore, etc.

The places you mention all seem to be in some of the largest cities and/or metro areas. Is there perhaps some sort of density threshold or income level that needs to be reached before it works? We have seen failures and/or serious struggles in St. Pete, Jacksonville, Ft. Lauderdale, WPB, and even downtown Atlanta (midtown seems to be having a better run with some of its new projects). I bring those up not as an opponent but as someone who wants to make sure what we do is successful. One more Lou Pearlman version of Church St. Station could put the boobirds in charge again, something we don't want to happen. Also remember that retail follows, it never leads. Orlando was tardy hitting the radar of upscale retailers - I'm not yet convinced we're anywhere close to tapping into that critical mass for downtown.

On the other hand (can you tell I was an econ major?), FL Trend recently noted that Orlando is expected to be one of the fastest-growing metro areas for millionaires in the next few years. Are those folks going to the 'burbs or will they be interested in downtown. We're looking at some uncharted territory for a region whose major activity centers are so diverse.

Edited July 8, 2008 by spenser1058

[downtowninvestor]

This is not a mall. This is just afew restaurants with a movie theatre. And I dont see the city giving that much money.

This company also owns baldwin park, and baldwin park retailers are suffering as well.

[scottb411]

There is a lot of pent-up demand for this. The only theater anywhere close to downtown is Fashion Square and that reaches a different demographic than the downtown crowd. I think the city should pony up and make it happen. This has the potential to make this part of Orlando a true theatre district with the PAC on the way. If we could just get the Improv to come back to town and get SAK back closer to Orange Ave.

[Camillo Sitte]

Is there perhaps some sort of density threshold...

It is pretty much 100% about human critical mass - that and hoping no one ever opens a newer mall/center within 10-miles of you.

[OCF]

I think that not only is critical mass an important consideration but also proper scale. As mentioned the developments that have succeeded have been in very large urban areas whereas the ones of who have struggled have done so in smaller markets. I think the mistake some of the planners made is that they just assumed there were enough people in the metro area to support it because everyone in the metro WILL support it. The problem is in the beginning that may be true while the place is still a novelty, but once that wears off a much smaller percentage of people will visit it. In a place like St. Pete or Fort Laudy this is bound to happen because of all the other options people have. It's really hard to sell going downtown all the time when you have the beach and seashore beckoning you. Than on top of that you have other entertainment complexes to compete with.

This may be the one area where Orlando has an advantage. Yes there are other entertainment complex options, Citywalk and Pleasure Island (although I don't know how much longer this will remain an option) but in general the residential population doesn't frequent those spots. Much of the consumer market the Plaza would be targeting really does consider Downtown one of their only options for certain types of entertainment. Look at the one place similar in size that is doing well, the mall in DT Providence. Unless you want to head to Boston there really are no other options for the Providence residents except the suburban malls and megaplexes. Granted there are always the suburban megaplexes here but again it all comes down to scale. If you build a facility where you a expect a percentage of the market to show up on a regular basis as opposed to everyone frequenting your place constantly you'll be ok. I think in it's current configuration the Plaza Theaters could do well with certain numbers catering to Big Box Blockbusters movies and others reserved for independent films or groups like the Enzian, like someone else mentioned. This way you would almost be ensuring that you will have interest from the consumers by diversifying your consumers. Ok sorry for my poor attempt at basic economics but I think you get the idea.

[JRS1]

no news on the cinema, but Black Olive and NYPD Pizza plan to both open around the week of July 15-22. I spoke to the owners of both establishments last week and I for one am very excited about their addition to the building. Black Olive will cater a mediterranean Italian menu and NYPD Pizza will build out it's unit similar to some places in Manhattan, with a giant plasma screen facing outside showcasing the chef, with a flatscreen pedistal in the center with a dozen flatscreens lighting up the place. two fantastic additions.

Black Olive will compliment Pine St. corridor perfectly. NYPD will compliment Bento and the central portion of the complex perfectly.

[Boomer136]

I think that not only is critical mass an important consideration but also proper scale. As mentioned the developments that have succeeded have been in very large urban areas whereas the ones of who have struggled have done so in smaller markets. I think the mistake some of the planners made is that they just assumed there were enough people in the metro area to support it because everyone in the metro WILL support it. The problem is in the beginning that may be true while the place is still a novelty, but once that wears off a much smaller percentage of people will visit it. In a place like St. Pete or Fort Laudy this is bound to happen because of all the other options people have. It's really hard to sell going downtown all the time when you have the beach and seashore beckoning you. Than on top of that you have other entertainment complexes to compete with.

This may be the one area where Orlando has an advantage. Yes there are other entertainment complex options, Citywalk and Pleasure Island (although I don't know how much longer this will remain an option) but in general the residential population doesn't frequent those spots. Much of the consumer market the Plaza would be targeting really does consider Downtown one of their only options for certain types of entertainment. Look at the one place similar in size that is doing well, the mall in DT Providence. Unless you want to head to Boston there really are no other options for the Providence residents except the suburban malls and megaplexes. Granted there are always the suburban megaplexes here but again it all comes down to scale. If you build a facility where you a expect a percentage of the market to show up on a regular basis as opposed to everyone frequenting your place constantly you'll be ok. I think in it's current configuration the Plaza Theaters could do well with certain numbers catering to Big Box Blockbusters movies and others reserved for independent films or groups like the Enzian, like someone else mentioned. This way you would almost be ensuring that you will have interest from the consumers by diversifying your consumers. Ok sorry for my poor attempt at basic economics but I think you get the idea.

I agree with you on the diversity potential. 12 theatres means there is the opportunity to have more indie films. Let the patrons vote with the tickets. Most plex's I see have the same movie on multiple screens. Have to see if the market is there downtown. If not there, where would it be?

[OCF]

Just read that the Forty-VII clothing store is co-owned/founded by Tampa Bucs and former Seminole High star center Jeff Faine. Reportedly will open later this summer and will stay open late to accommodate late night crowd with music spinning also. And yes he confirmed Forty-VII is a homage to our 407 area code. I'm really happy to hear this is a home grown enterprise and founded by one of our own who made it and bringing it back to his hometown. I will defenitly have to pick up a few items there just to show support and pride for the 407. I don't know how to post the article but it's actually a piece in the sports section about Jeff Faine joining the Bucs and coming home.

[slapdash09]

Just read that the Forty-VII clothing store is co-owned/founded by Tampa Bucs and former Seminole High star center Jeff Faine. Reportedly will open later this summer and will stay open late to accommodate late night crowd with music spinning also. And yes he confirmed Forty-VII is a homage to our 407 area code. I'm really happy to hear this is a home grown enterprise and founded by one of our own who made it and bringing it back to his hometown. I will defenitly have to pick up a few items there just to show support and pride for the 407. I don't know how to post the article but it's actually a piece in the sports section about Jeff Faine joining the Bucs and coming home.

here's the article about one of the nicest guys in the world. he and my brother we good friends in high school, and although faine was a big star, he still sent flowers to my brother's funeral a few years ago. i was delighted to hear it's his store, too!

Tampa Bay Bucs C Jeff Faine settles into new contract, new life close to home

[surina777]

here's the article about one of the nicest guys in the world. he and my brother we good friends in high school, and although faine was a big star, he still sent flowers to my brother's funeral a few years ago. i was delighted to hear it's his store, too!

Tampa Bay Bucs C Jeff Faine settles into new contract, new life close to home

awesome! im excited to hear about that as well..i am a big supporter of local biz...so def will pick up items when i can!

[JRS1]

NYPD Pizza is ever so close to opening. THey've installed 9 flatscreen TV's with a 10th on the way which will be the largest of the bunch and face outside.

Black Olive is also finishing out buildout.

[fenderbender]

I'm curious, for those of you who purchased or rent in Solaire: Are you pleased with the decision? Are you happy with the building, the management and most of all, the unit you chose? I'd really love to hear some opinions of the residents there.

I walk by the property often, and this project seems to have really taken off. Even without the movie theater. The level of activity seems to be nearing that of TPC.

Thanks It's always interesting to hear the insider perspective.

[bulldogger]

In the current issue of Sports Illustrated with Maurice Jones-Drew of the Jaguars, there is an advertising feature for John Hancock. They feature the Tampa Bay Bucs center Jeff Faine who is the partner with Pete Downing (manager of Antigua) and their story on FortyVII Clothing opening up in the 67-floor building. Explains one of the reasons for opening late is that they wanted to drop the floor 18 inches and had to cut some of the support for the whole building to do so. Says they are opening in October.

[JRS1]

In the current issue of Sports Illustrated with Maurice Jones-Drew of the Jaguars, there is an advertising feature for John Hancock. They feature the Tampa Bay Bucs center Jeff Faine who is the partner with Pete Downing (manager of Antigua) and their story on FortyVII Clothing opening up in the 67-floor building. Explains one of the reasons for opening late is that they wanted to drop the floor 18 inches and had to cut some of the support for the whole building to do so. Says they are opening in October.

JHC in Chicago or Boston? b/c the JHC in Chitown is 96 stories/100 stories.

BTW, there were some "people" at the Forty VII location looking and evaluating at the Magnolia side entrance (or maybe it was a bunch of drunk white homeless guys looking for a place to sleep).