Westin at Towncenter Progress

[rusthebuss]

It's economics.  The rents weren't there to make such tall structures viable.  It was cheaper to build low-rise offices in Lynnhaven, Greenbrier, Hampton Roads Center, and Lake Wright than build towers.  If VB hadn't stepped in with TC, there would probably be another shopping center or Wal-Mart on that site.  So what would Norfolk have gained, another mid-rise building?  Maybe Trader would have stayed in VB (since no traffic from TC) adding a third building to the Convergence Center. 

These cities aren't competing because they want the bragging rights, it's about taxes.  VB has the lowest business property tax to residential property tax ratio of all 7 cities.  It needs more businesses to remain fiscally sound.  This entire situation is like Orange County and that place survives just fine without a skyscraper downtown.

What kind of skyline is needed to not be pathetic?  Several 500 or 600 foot buildings?  who is going to fill those structures?  Who will afford the rent for those structures?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to inform you but Trader Publishing hq has always been in Norfolk. They are only taking some jobs from the beach thats it, that worked on the autotrader.com site.

[rusthebuss]

That looks to be about right.

[rusthebuss]

I do like the architecture of the building though. It will be cool to see that building from dt Norfolk.

[vdogg]

Okay, now that I know the height of the Westin project I made a crude measurement on the top floor height dependent on this picture.  Unfortunetly the results were disapointing. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The tower will be 112ft taller than AH not 100 taller. The roofline should be at least at 408' not 396'.

[rusthebuss]

urbanfan corrected him in a earlier post.

[urbanvb]

Wow, that was quick.  I just recieved a reply from Jon Glass from Pilot online.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I emailed him also last night to see his stance on the Westin being the tallest but.. alas, I have not heard back from him.

[urbanvb]

Wow this is a lively debate today. lol. My question may be answered somewhere out in the posts but anyway how tall is the spire on the AH tower and how tall will the spire be on the Westin?

[vdogg]

Wow this is a lively debate today. lol. My question may be answered somewhere out in the posts but anyway how tall is the spire on the AH tower and how tall will the spire be on the Westin?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AH is 100 and the Westin is anywhere from 50 to 100. I feel pretty safe in saying the spire height will remain about that number and i feel safe saying that the actual buildings height is at least 400.

[vdogg]

Wow this is a lively debate today. lol. My question may be answered somewhere out in the posts but anyway how tall is the spire on the AH tower and how tall will the spire be on the Westin?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was confirmed by the pilot that the spire was included in the 508 so if the spires 100ft then the actual building is 408 ft tall. I already said this but it's a few opages back .

[johnhowell]

The roofline should be at least at 408' not 396'.

I know, I've already been told that. I didn't just make up the 396' mark you know. From the top of the spire to the bottom of the building is roughly 557 pixels. The top of the last floor sat on pixel number 436. This is where basic math comes in hand. I divided 557 into 508 to reach .912. I multiplied that number with 436 (the top of the last floor) to reach 396 feet. That rendering may be inaccurate, I don't know. But I at least deserve some respect for coming up with a scientific method of figuring out the floor height.

[hoobo]

Sorry to inform you but Trader Publishing hq has always been in Norfolk. They are only taking some jobs from the beach thats it, that worked on the autotrader.com site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My bad. But my point still stands that it's land values, low vacancy, and sufficient rent to cover costs that drive buildings up. There was the 80's boom. The mid-late 90's boom and now this boom. VB is sharing in the boom, not stealing from Norfolk.

[vdogg]

  VB is sharing in the boom, not stealing from Norfolk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for stating that. A lot of people still want to frame things in terms of old rivalries. It should be stated that this is a completely different environment than has existed in the past. Both cities seem much less antagonistic towards eachother and both have done very well in this boom. Relatively few toes have been stepped on as of late and i think both city governments are genuinely happy that the other is doing well. DT Norfolk and TC are catering to two completely different sets of clientele. Those that are inclined towards suburban office parks will probably choose TC for their HQ's. Those more inclined towards a downtown/CBD feel will choose Norfolk. There will be very little cross migration between these segments of the corporate population. In short, TC compliments Norfolk and vice versa. Having this type of variety helps keep businesses in HR period instead of them searching for other metro areas.

[rusthebuss]

If thats the case why where they fighting to get Trader to move there HQs into TC, that sounds like competition to me!!!!

[vdogg]

If thats the case why where they fighting to get Trader to move there HQs into TC, that sounds like competition to me!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Understandably they were trying to keep jobs in Va. Beach (which is what a city government is supposed to do). When it became obvious that Trader would not stay in Va. Beach (they did have a sizeable presence there even if it wasn't the HQ), then the focus became keeping them in Hampton Roads. Norfolk stepped up to the plate and kept

the headquarters here, which made everyone happy. There was an article posted about this on this site and when i find it i'll have to link to it. About the only thing that raised tension was traders reasoning for choosing DT Norfolk over TC (traffic). Even that was minor compared to Norfolk and Va. Beach's past collisions. The environment is getting better, and it is all boiling down to what is best for each particular cities residents.

[urbanvb]

Well it seems to be that most of us think the garage could be smaller and could well, look less like a garage. Does anyone have any pics of well designed parking garages? Maybe someone could redesign the garage and show us how good it could look. And who knows, we are small in number but we are a pretty vocal bunch and maybe we could voice our displeasure but yet offer a better looking rendering.

[vdogg]

Maybe if they painted the garage columns the same color blue as the rest of the building (instead of that orange/baige or whatever the heck it is. It would still be one big freaking garage but perhaps it won't stand out as much?

[rusthebuss]

The major problem is not the look of the garage but how wide it is and it makes the building look so skinny and its a waste of land. They could wrap it with Town Houses or some kind of retail and make it a little taller and not as wide.

[rusthebuss]

Thank you for stating that. A lot of people still want to frame things in terms of old rivalries. It should be stated that this is a completely different environment than has existed in the past. Both cities seem much less antagonistic towards eachother and both have done very well in this boom. Relatively few toes have been stepped on as of late and i think both city governments are genuinely happy that the other is doing well. DT Norfolk and TC are catering to two completely different sets of clientele. Those that are inclined towards suburban office parks will probably choose TC for their HQ's. Those more inclined towards a downtown/CBD feel will choose Norfolk. There will be very little cross migration between these segments of the corporate population. In short, TC compliments Norfolk and vice versa. Having this type of variety helps keep businesses in HR period instead of them searching for other metro areas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rivalries is still there. One example: We do not want to put the light rail in Vabeach and connect with Norfolk and bring the Norfolk element to VaBeach. Sounds like it to me. That sounds like they think they have a snobby attitude to me with that better than attitude. VaBeach doesn't want mass transit or the light rail because it would look like Norfolk came up with the idea and they followed. If Va Beach went with it we would have had light rail in progress as we type. They feel they helped shut down the project.

[vdogg]

.One example: We do not want to put the light rail in Vabeach and connect with Norfolk and bring the Norfolk element to VaBeach.

This was said a while ago wasn't it?

VaBeach doesn't want mass transit or the light rail because it would look like Norfolk came up with the idea and they followed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or couldn't a different explanation be that they wanted to go with BRT because it's cheaper and they're not sure if the ridership levels exist in Va. Beach to make LRT a viable option today? Also BRT can be done quicker. Keep in mind that LRT is still in the Beachs master plan and it was stated as recently as this year the desire to to buy right of ways to keep the LRT option for the future.

[ace707]

That was my point. The Westin will look way taller than AH. I'm hoping that the Granby total is just a general figure and that the actual building will be more than 10ft taller than Dominion. It's still a beautiful building if not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm witcha Vdogg, I would be genuinely pissed if the Granby building itself (not including a spire) only reaches 350 ft. If it turns out like that, it won't look any taller to people. Yeah, at least it's the most beautiful building this area has been blessed with so far

[ace707]

About the only thing that raised tension was traders reasoning for choosing DT Norfolk over TC (traffic).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't think I'm trying to add fuel to the fire here (if there is even one between Va. Beach and Norfolk but I'm not aware of one) but I think we should clarify that the traffic was more of a personal problem (in my view anyway) of the execs of Trader especially Mr. Conrad Hall who became vocal about TC traffic. THE REAL REASON according to Hall for choosing downtown Norfolk, was a survey done by the Trader employees that would fill the building and the majority voiced for a downtown location. But like I said before, Norfolk and VA Beach aren't directly attacking each other, its all about economics like another forumer said. Then, economics aside, it's Trader's decision about who will lose employees and unfortunately Norfolk and Va Beach would have been victims if that was the decision to move out of the area.

[okinawatyphoon]

Don't think I'm trying to add fuel to the fire here (if there is even one between Va. Beach and Norfolk but I'm not aware of one) but I think we should clarify that the traffic was more of a personal problem (in my view anyway) of the execs of Trader especially Mr. Conrad Hall who became vocal about TC traffic. THE REAL REASON according to Hall for choosing downtown Norfolk, was a survey done by the Trader employees that would fill the building and the majority voiced for a downtown location. But like I said before, Norfolk and VA Beach aren't directly attacking each other, its all about economics like another forumer said. Then, economics aside, it's Trader's decision about who will lose employees and unfortunately Norfolk and Va Beach would have been victims if that was the decision to move out of the area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said. We should at least be happy that the jobs are staying here, and we are actually gaining some jobs. And yes it should be noted that the young employees chose downtown as the place to be. Maybe in time Va. Beach will be a place to be too.

[hoobo]

The major problem is not the look of the garage but how wide it is and it makes the building look so skinny and its a waste of land. They could wrap it with Town Houses or some kind of retail and make it a little taller and not as wide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the townhouse idea. I think the current plans call for ground floor retail all around the parcel. How much more small retail can TC have? The Cosmo will have small retail. There are plans for another retail block. City View will have retail as will City Park. The Dick's block is having problems securing small retail. In the original renderings found on the TC site, the Westin block shows two buildings on top of a garage. One of the buildings is where the Westin will be. The other is on the SW corner.

I propose building a 10-story office building on that corner (from the ground floor, not on top of a garage). Townhouses can go on the SE corner and retail on the NW corner ground-floor. The garage would rise to 7 or 8 stories. It just seems like the SW corner needs something to balance the tower.

Another proposal would involve Barnes and Noble or Bed, Bath, & Beyond. With rumors of a theater expansion and garage, BB&B will need to move. Include a 2 story store on the SW corner of the parcel across from Dick's. Or for B&N (so they can have a music/DVD dept) or Ethan Allen (if they haven't began construction on their stand-alone store).

The point being, some kind of large retail, office or residential component to break up the monotony of garage and ground-floor small retail.

Finally, the garage should not look like a garage. It is ugly sitting underneath the Westin. The garage at UVa's Darden Business School doesn't even look like a garage. It has shutters and false windows that make it look like an apartment building. Such design features would go a long way to making the Westin garage blend in.

[urbanvb]

I received an email today from the sales group of the Westin. They are contacting everyone on the list - at present over 600. The folks that are on the priority list - those qualified for such a loan - have been invited to a cocktail to meet the team and have an opportunity to ask questions.

[vdogg]

I received an email today from the sales group of the Westin. They are contacting everyone on the list - at present over 600. The folks that are on the priority list - those qualified for such a loan - have been invited to a cocktail to meet the team and have an opportunity to ask questions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

over 600 . Yeah, i think it's a safe bet that the Westin will sell all its condos.