Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CltFlyer]

I came in on a flight from sea today and saw an old color Usairways a333 sitting at D11. I thought all the A333's were painted..........anyone have any info.

[Miesian Corners]

I came in on a flight from sea today and saw an old color Usairways a333 sitting at D11. I thought all the A333's were painted..........anyone have any info.

The only fleet type to have been completely changed to the new (hideous) livery is the B767. There are two A330s still in their midnight blue colors.

[Temeteron]

So have they changed the tv screens to flats yet??

[Miesian Corners]

So have they changed the tv screens to flats yet??

Nope, still tubes. PHL replaced its FIDS screens last month with really cool flat panel displays. Actually hired an architect to design their placement.

Other recent terminal improvements around the nation:

• Harrrisburg/York (MDT) replaced concourse carpeting with terrazzo. Main terminal now has a mosaic of the PA State Seal embedded into the terrazzo
  
• San Juan (SJU) is about to open a new terminal that is LEED certified
  
• Boston (BOS) has just completed the installation of wind turbines on the roof of the airport administration building. It is expected that the 8-foot-tall towers will generate about 100,000 kilowatt-hours a year.
  

Meanwhile here in the Queen City, the elevator at C security checkpoint has been out of service since Memorial Day. The moving sidewalks in the C connector have been out of service for a week. The escalator at International Arrivals has been inop intermittently for two weeks. Three stalls in the recently renovated C Concourse men's rooms have broken stall doors and the terrazzo was installed incorrectly (wasn't sealed) and is already stained below every urinal (its been open less than two months). The FIDS monitors adjacent to the US Airways Special Service counter on B Concourse are on the blink (literally). Backlit signs in Immigration have been covered with black electrical tape to cover up the word "Immigration".

Yep, Jerry is doing a bang up job. How's this for a new ad campain: "US Airways and Charlotte/Douglas: Perfect Together"? Or maybe, "Charlotte/Douglas and US Airways: A mediocre airport for a mediocre airline".

[monsoon]

Sounds as if Charlotte will be losing all of its direct flights to LGA that are flown by American and Delta.

[monsoon]

As oil inches closer to $150/barrel, American Airlines announced today that it is laying off 900 flight attendants. It's a sign IMO, that the current airline industry is getting ready to have to make some fundamental changes to the system it has been using since the early 1980s, and which will no doubt have implications for Charlotte's airport.

[Andyc545]

It's a sign IMO, that the current airline industry is getting ready to have to make some fundamental changes to the system it has been using since the early 1980s, and which will no doubt have implications for Charlotte's airport.

What fundamental changes do you speak of?

[Windsurfer]

As oil inches closer to $150/barrel, American Airlines announced today that it is laying off 900 flight attendants. It's a sign IMO, that the current airline industry is getting ready to have to make some fundamental changes to the system it has been using since the early 1980s, and which will no doubt have implications for Charlotte's airport.

Some of the money going to the new runways should be re-directed to train stations. The trains are moving and a groovin' these days. Probably better for the environment anyway.

[monsoon]

What fundamental changes do you speak of?

I see a dismantling of the hub and spoke system, which is required to provide universal service by all carriers, and a return to something closer to the point to point system that existed prior to de-regulation.

[JayGee]

Nope, still tubes. PHL replaced its FIDS screens last month with really cool flat panel displays. Actually hired an architect to design their placement.

Other recent terminal improvements around the nation:

• Harrrisburg/York (MDT) replaced concourse carpeting with terrazzo. Main terminal now has a mosaic of the PA State Seal embedded into the terrazzo
  
• San Juan (SJU) is about to open a new terminal that is LEED certified
  
• Boston (BOS) has just completed the installation of wind turbines on the roof of the airport administration building. It is expected that the 8-foot-tall towers will generate about 100,000 kilowatt-hours a year.
  

Meanwhile here in the Queen City, the elevator at C security checkpoint has been out of service since Memorial Day. The moving sidewalks in the C connector have been out of service for a week. The escalator at International Arrivals has been inop intermittently for two weeks. Three stalls in the recently renovated C Concourse men's rooms have broken stall doors and the terrazzo was installed incorrectly (wasn't sealed) and is already stained below every urinal (its been open less than two months). The FIDS monitors adjacent to the US Airways Special Service counter on B Concourse are on the blink (literally). Backlit signs in Immigration have been covered with black electrical tape to cover up the word "Immigration".

Yep, Jerry is doing a bang up job. How's this for a new ad campain: "US Airways and Charlotte/Douglas: Perfect Together"? Or maybe, "Charlotte/Douglas and US Airways: A mediocre airport for a mediocre airline".

I'm sure Jerry will just stick a bunch of flat panel LCD monitors in the holes the old crt's came out of. And I don't think I have ever been through our airport when there was not at least one moving sidewalk or escalator out of commission.

Edited July 2, 2008 by JayGee

[JunktionFET]

The moving sidewalks in the C connector have been out of service for a week.

I had to connect in CLT last Monday and last Friday and both times the moving sidewalks for Concourse C were working... I had to go between C and B actually and all the sidewalks along the way seemed to be working. Have they broken down more recently?

[elvigy]

I had to connect in CLT last Monday and last Friday and both times the moving sidewalks for Concourse C were working... I had to go between C and B actually and all the sidewalks along the way seemed to be working. Have they broken down more recently?

I flew to NYC last Tuesday and flew back in on Monday of this week. All the moving sidewalks were working both times I went through as well. Perhaps they were only temporarily out of service for maintenance or something.

[Miesian Corners]

I see a dismantling of the hub and spoke system, which is required to provide universal service by all carriers, and a return to something closer to the point to point system that existed prior to de-regulation.

I don't expect the hub and spoke system will go away anytime soon. Every major airline in the world currently uses the model (including freight companies like FedEx and UPS). And before deregulation, Delta had embraced the hub concept at Atlanta (giving rise to the old joke that said "when you die, you'll have to connect in ATL to get to heaven or hell"). Even the "low cost carriers" have hubs of sorts. Southwest might say it doesn't do connections (it doesn't connect bags for customers), but many people buy a ticket from point A to Las Vegas, Dallas Love, or Phoenix, then buy a second ticket from either of those two and on to their selected destination. AirTran operates hubs at Atlanta, Milwaukee, and Orlando. jetBlue has "key cities" where it offers connections (Ft Lauderdale, New York JFK, and Long Beach). The point is that all airlines still cluster activity in selected cities to offest costs. While Southwest might call it "point to point" flying, rest assured those airplanes will go through DAL or PHX at somepoint during their week, as heavy maintenance (at least some of their heavy maintenance--they sub contract over 60% of it to outside sources) is one of those reasons.

[uptownliving]

I agree with your analysis Miesien Corners and would add that a good bit of the flights being cut by the airlines now are the Point to Point flights. Instead they are redirecting those people back through their hubs.

[Raintree21]

I would think if anything, cut backs in other areas would bring more business to Charlotte than take away.

[monsoon]

..... While Southwest might call it "point to point" flying, rest assured those airplanes will go through DAL or PHX at somepoint during their week, as heavy maintenance (at least some of their heavy maintenance--they sub contract over 60% of it to outside sources) is one of those reasons.

I don't deny that. That type of thing will always be required. However when air travel becomes, basically unafordable to most people because of the huge energy costs, then you will see the need for the huge hubs like Charlotte disappear. The airlines will have to do more point to point traveling because the alternative, diverting the passengers hundreds of miles to a regional hub, will just become too expensive to maintain. This will also mean some places won't have air travel anymore. We are already starting to see the beginnings of that.

[uptownliving]

If the energy costs continue to go up then the airlines won't be able to afford more point to point flying than already exists today. Thats the whole "point". The airlines are already cutting point to point flights that don't work anymore with the current cost of oil. So I don't see how a point to point flight that is unaffordable today at $140 oil is somehow going to become affordable at $160 oil.

[monsoon]

All of the places that just lost service were connected to hubs. I don't understand your last sentence.

[uptownliving]

Yes there is some hub flying being cut mainly to very small city's and towns and the long houl routes that don't have enough people flying them. But right now most of the cuts are coming on Point to Point flights.

I'll give you 2 recent cuts out of Charlotte that are Point to Point both on AirTran:

Charlotte-Chicago

Charlotte-Orlando

There are many more point to point flights getting cut all across the country and all the airlines are focusing back to their respective hubs. Some examples would be the entire Skybus operation which affected Greensboro....and our friends in Raleigh are losing a number of destinations on American, Delta, and Southwest....all to non-hub locations.

I don't know how to make myself any clearer. If an airline can't afford...or to put it another way, can't make a profit on a particular point to point flight today at $140 oil what makes you think they will be able to make a profit on that same point to point flight at $160 oil? Or do you think there are a bunch of point to point routes out there that the airlines arn't currently flying that is just a gold mine waiting to be discovered?

Edited July 4, 2008 by uptownliving

[monsoon]

My comments about the hubs are limited to the legacy carriers, not the small fry like Air Tran. A more telling tale are the canceling of a significant # of flights between CLT and LGA by American and Delta.

On your point about affordability, you are absolutely correct. They can't afford to fly planes at current ticket prices at $140/barrel and even less so at $160. When the the bleeding of money finally forces them to adjust ticket prices accordingly, the demand will drop off greatly and the resulting airline business will look quite different than it does today. The airlines at the moment are choosing to lose huge sums each quarter in hopes this problem will go away on its own, rather than face this demise. They have already used up the federal bankruptcy laws to dump their prior obligations onto the taxpayers so they don't have this avenue anymore.

[HopHead]

Jeez, to show my ignorance, I had no idea American even flew to LGA from CLT. To me the biggest disappointment is the Orlando cut by Airtran. Anytime you lose a LCC flying to a destination, it hurts. I recently flew to Baltimore on Airtran (it was $200 cheaper than USA) and it was probably 95% full both ways. I'd be surprised if Orlando's route was much different given that it's more of a tourist destination.... and oh, I got drinks and pretzels at no cost on Airtran

Edited July 4, 2008 by dbull75

[uptownliving]

My comments about the hubs are limited to the legacy carriers, not the small fry like Air Tran. A more telling tale are the canceling of a significant # of flights between CLT and LGA by American and Delta.

Telling indeed because the American and Delta CLT-LGA flights were all Point to Point supported almost entirely by O&D traffic. What is also telling is that Delta has not cut the CLT-JFK flights. Why? Because JFK is a hub for Delta.

Even Southwest Airlines is making changes to their systems to make connections easier on their flights. Why? Because on average their airplanes fly with 10% less people than the legacy carriers. So to improve their efficency and bring in more money they are going to fill up those extra seats on existing flights with connecting passengers.

In my opinion even with the rising costs of fuel the airlines will be cutting more and more point to point flights and more passengers on a percentage basis will be flying through the hubs.

You are right though that big changes are coming to airlines...and I think those changes are that as the cost goes up there will be less airlines flying....and of course Charlotte will be affected, possibly dramatically.

[Raintree21]

I did a quick google search but came up empty. Does anyone know of a website or have a graphic that shows historic airline ticket prices? How do prices today compare to prices in the past? Are they pretty similar (inflation adjusted or not) or are we entering new territory?

[MZT]

In the future (probably within 10 years, maybe even 5)

You're going to see more of the largest planes retired. It's inefficient to punch a large hole through the air at high speeds. But it was popular to move passengers fast, and the crew-to-passenger cost is less under that model.

As fuel becomes the major concern, you will see smaller and slower planes in the fleets. Passengers can just accept a slower flight, or drive. And airlines will need smaller planes anyway, since fewer people will be flying and paying the higher rates.

Trans-ocean flights will become much less common, and they will involve refueling (perhaps in Iceland or Ireland in the Atlantic, and Hawaii or Alaska in the Pacific). Part of what makes long distance travel expensive, is "the cost of fuel to carry fuel." It's cheaper to move the fuel by ship and have it wait at a storage facility. Weight taken up by the extra fuel for non-stop flights, instead is used for more fare-payers.

Edited July 5, 2008 by MZT

[Miesian Corners]

In the future (probably within 10 years, maybe even 5)

You're going to see more of the largest planes retired. It's inefficient to punch a large hole through the air at high speeds. But it was popular to move passengers fast, and the crew-to-passenger cost is less under that model.

As fuel becomes the major concern, you will see smaller and slower planes in the fleets. Passengers can just accept a slower flight, or drive. And airlines will need smaller planes anyway, since fewer people will be flying and paying the higher rates.

Trans-ocean flights will become much less common, and they will involve refueling (perhaps in Iceland or Ireland in the Atlantic, and Hawaii or Alaska in the Pacific). Part of what makes long distance travel expensive, is "the cost of fuel to carry fuel." It's cheaper to move the fuel by ship and have it wait at a storage facility. Weight taken up by the extra fuel for non-stop flights, instead is used for more fare-payers.

I can't agree with you on those points. It is cheaper for airlines to fly fewer flights on larger jets than on regional jets (RJs). RJs eat up a tremendous amount of fuel for the amount of people they carry. What I think you can expect to see is a return to some of the older ways. Take for example Charlotte to Roanoke (ROA). Instead of 12 round trips between the city pair on an RJ that seats 55 passengers (pax), expect it to go to what it was in the late 1980s with 6 round trips on a 737 or A319. Same number of seats, but less choice of travel times.

As for trans-oceanic travel, at this point, it's the only profitable flying done by legacy carriers (in the USA). US makes money on CLT to London-Gatwick (LGW) even if the flight goes out empty due to the huge demand for cargo between the two markets. Passengers are the gravy on those flights. Flights from CLT to LGW, Frankfurt (FRA) and Munich (MUC) are currently filled up with Europeans paying with a stronger currency and who don't balk at the cost of air travel in USD.