Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Crucial_Infra]

3 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

A little birdie told me that if you use Chrome, go into advanced settings and disable javascript for bizjournals.com.  Paywall is javascript so it won't load.  

 

 

But that means I have to use an actual computer instead of my phone. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Crucial_Infra

[deleted]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Inside looks swish, but the new control tower looks a-w-f-u-l.

I saw it yesterday...thought it looked sweet.  Go figure.

[Nick2]

6 hours ago, Crucial_Infra said:

There's got to be a way for KJ or someone on UP to negotiate a group rate subscription to the Business Journal so we can see these links.  

Go to the drop down for chrome or whatever browser you use. Reload the page then click it again quickly and hit 'X' before it fully loads. The paywall is often the last thing to load on the page. If you've ever noticed, you can see the article until the page finishes coming up.

This works for business journal for sure. I do it all the time.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Nick2

[11 HouseBZ]

4 hours ago, Crucial_Infra said:

But that means I have to use an actual computer instead of my phone. 

It works on phone (at least a Samsung s7). 3 dots >settings >site settings>JavaScript>disable

[Dale]

4 hours ago, JBS said:

I saw it yesterday...thought it looked sweet.  Go figure.

Well, maybe it's like Alaskan glaciers wherein pictures don't do it justice.

[NCMike1990]

A new ClearSky gallery has been posted showing off airport and new control tower. http://photos.clearskyimages.com/p743490854

[LKN704]

Seeing something posted on a popular aviation website, I thought it would be interesting to compile a list of flights (and equipment) operated by all other non-AA carriers CLT, as of today's schedule.

 

Delta: 35 daily flights

ATL: 8x MD-88, 2x 717 (10)

CVG: 3X CRJ (3)

DTW: 4X 717, 1X CR7 (5)

MSP: 3X 717, 1X CR9 (4)

SLC: 1X 738 (1)

JFK: 2X CR9, 2X E75 (4)

LGA: 3X CR9, 1X CR7, 3X E75, 1X E70 (8)

 

United: 22 daily flights

EWR: 1x 739, 1x A320, 3X E75, 1x E70 (6)

ORD: 1x A320, 2X E75, 2X CR7 (5)

IAD: 2X E75, 2X CR7 (4)

DEN: 2X A319 (2)

IAH: 1x 73G, 2x E70, 2x E75 (5)

 

Air Canada: 2 daily flights

YYZ: 2x CRJ (2)

 

JetBlue: 4 daily flights

JFK: 2x E90 (2)

BOS: 2x E90 (2)k

 

Southwest: 8 daily flights

DAL: 1X 73G (1)

HOU: 2X 73G (2)

BNA: 1X 73G (1)

BWI: 2X 73G (2)

MDW: 2X 73G (2)

 

Lufthansa: 1 daily flight

MUC: 1x A333 (1)

 

Frontier (Not all fights operate daily): 2-5 flights daily

MCO: 1x A321

DEN: 1x A320

PVD: 1x A321 (not daily)

AUS: 1X A320 (not daily)

TTN: 1X A320 (not daily)

PHL: 1X A320 (not daily)

 

ViaAir (not all flights operate daily): 2-4 flights daily

SFB: 1x E145 (not daily)

SGJ (St. Augustine): 2 weekly E120

BKW (Beckley, WV): 1x E120

PKB (Parkersburg, WV): 1x E120

 

Total flights daily: 76-81

In essence, it really isn't a lot. But I wonder if that has to do with lack of demand or rather lack of gate space in Concourse A. It should be interesting to see what carriers do once the new concourse opens next month. 

In my opinion, the biggest "holes" in CLT's non-AA network are San Francisco, Florida, and Los Angeles. I'd really like to see JetBlue resume CLT-FLL. I would somewhat classify Seattle as a "hole" but the daily PDEW (passengers daily each way) is quite low, and I've heard from those who work at Alaska that CLT isn't on their radar anytime soon.

[elrodvt]

^I find the prices are much higher than other airports. This pushes me to drive to another airport or all the way to my destination for personal travel. Do you think that is part of it?

[jordan704]

The AA prices at CLT are out of control. I love CLT but I have to get approval for every flight because the prices are so expensive. My coworkers taking a connection through CLT $200. I'll be on the same final destination flight(direct) $600. Every week booked months in advance.

[ssh214]

I came to Charlotte for the week... three weeks in advance for me looking to buy a ticket the price was over $700... I ended up driving from Miami, it’s out of control from South Florida to Charlotte (I’m not flying Allegiant)

[jtmonk]

12 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Seeing something posted on a popular aviation website, I thought it would be interesting to compile a list of flights (and equipment) operated by all other non-AA carriers CLT, as of today's schedule.

 

Delta: 35 daily flights

ATL: 8x MD-88, 2x 717 (10)

CVG: 3X CRJ (3)

DTW: 4X 717, 1X CR7 (5)

MSP: 3X 717, 1X CR9 (4)

SLC: 1X 738 (1)

JFK: 2X CR9, 2X E75 (4)

LGA: 3X CR9, 1X CR7, 3X E75, 1X E70 (8)

 

United: 22 daily flights

EWR: 1x 739, 1x A320, 3X E75, 1x E70 (6)

ORD: 1x A320, 2X E75, 2X CR7 (5)

IAD: 2X E75, 2X CR7 (4)

DEN: 2X A319 (2)

IAH: 1x 73G, 2x E70, 2x E75 (5)

 

Air Canada: 2 daily flights

YYZ: 2x CRJ (2)

 

JetBlue: 4 daily flights

JFK: 2x E90 (2)

BOS: 2x E90 (2)k

 

Southwest: 8 daily flights

DAL: 1X 73G (1)

HOU: 2X 73G (2)

BNA: 1X 73G (1)

BWI: 2X 73G (2)

MDW: 2X 73G (2)

 

Lufthansa: 1 daily flight

MUC: 1x A333 (1)

 

Frontier (Not all fights operate daily): 2-5 flights daily

MCO: 1x A321

DEN: 1x A320

PVD: 1x A321 (not daily)

AUS: 1X A320 (not daily)

TTN: 1X A320 (not daily)

PHL: 1X A320 (not daily)

 

ViaAir (not all flights operate daily): 2-4 flights daily

SFB: 1x E145 (not daily)

SGJ (St. Augustine): 2 weekly E120

BKW (Beckley, WV): 1x E120

PKB (Parkersburg, WV): 1x E120

 

Total flights daily: 76-81

In essence, it really isn't a lot. But I wonder if that has to do with lack of demand or rather lack of gate space in Concourse A. It should be interesting to see what carriers do once the new concourse opens next month. 

In my opinion, the biggest "holes" in CLT's non-AA network are San Francisco, Florida, and Los Angeles. I'd really like to see JetBlue resume CLT-FLL. I would somewhat classify Seattle as a "hole" but the daily PDEW (passengers daily each way) is quite low, and I've heard from those who work at Alaska that CLT isn't on their radar anytime soon.

It's not really due to lack of demand, it's due to CLT being a fortress hub for AA along with lack of gate space.  If UA were to add flights to SFO, AA would lower the prices on their flights to SFO until UA couldn't operate the flights profitably.  Same goes for Delta or Alaska or Virgin to any of their hubs out west.   

As for flights being expensive, I typically find CLT being on par with flights out of RDU and GSO.   I fly roughly a dozen times a year and half of that is out of CLT because it has been cheaper. 

[LKN704]

56 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

It's not really due to lack of demand, it's due to CLT being a fortress hub for AA along with lack of gate space.  If UA were to add flights to SFO, AA would lower the prices on their flights to SFO until UA couldn't operate the flights profitably.  Same goes for Delta or Alaska or Virgin to any of their hubs out west.   



As for flights being expensive, I typically find CLT being on par with flights out of RDU and GSO.   I fly roughly a dozen times a year and half of that is out of CLT because it has been cheaper. 

It's definitely lack of demand.

There are plenty of other fortress hubs that have more other-airline service than CLT has. MSP has service to SEA/PDX/SAN on Alaska, in addition to service to SFO on UA. DTW has service to SEA/PDX on Alaska, along with service to SFO on UA.  ATL has service to LAX on AA, SEA/PDX on Alaska, and 

I will say it is unfair to compare CLT to any of these hubs, simply because they are all larger than CLT in population. The closest hub in population size to CLT is SLC, which suffers from a similar lack of other-airline service. The only flights on non-DL legacy carriers from SLC to east-coast hubs that operate year-round are to CLT and EWR, at a measly single daily flight each. There's no service to IAD/MIA/DCA, although east coast cities are accessible nonstop on JetBlue and Southwest. 

I personally find RDU to be cheaper than CLT, especially on flights to the West coast-where there is often no comparison. On flights within the East coast (NYC especially) I usually find CLT to be cheaper.

A quick search on Google flights yielded the following results, for a round trip departing on 18 July and returning on 20 July:

RDU-SFO: $397 on both UA and Alaska (UA flies twice daily, Alaska flies once daily)

RDU-LAX: $391 on AA (AA flies RDU-LAX twice daily, as does DL)

RDU-SEA: $446 on Delta (Alaska also flies nonstop, but it was priced at $617)

CLT-SEA: $707 (4 AA nonstops/day)

CLT-LAX: $1025 (5 AA nonstops/day)

CLT-SFO: $827 (6 AA nonstops/day)

 

There is no comparison. 

At the same time, we really should not be complaining. It is the high ticket prices on AA that are essentially subsidizing the large AA hub here (due to the lack of demand). 

Edited June 19, 2018 by LKN704

[stiluvclt]

A personal appeal to KJHBurg, There is a view of the elevated roadway construction on the #DestinationCLT  from Dec 20, 2017. The perspective is from the west looking towards the east. Whenever you are doing your airport progress shooting could you post a "then and now" follow-up? I am anxious to see how those five crane bases will fit in to the construction. Just askin'.

[KJHburg]

Post the photo of the angle you want it from as I will be by that way next week. 

[49er]

The biggest  insult is finding a way cheaper fare somewhere else on the east coast and then being connected through CLT to get to your destination. I've seen $400 fare specials to europe with CLT connection  that were over $1,000 originating from here. 

AA is just screwing this city on airfare due to lack of competition. 

[stiluvclt]

https://twitter.com/CLTAirport/status/943557383799918592

Edited June 20, 2018 by stiluvclt
Not entered correctly

[CLT2014]

2 hours ago, 49er said:

The biggest  insult is finding a way cheaper fare somewhere else on the east coast and then being connected through CLT to get to your destination. I've seen $400 fare specials to europe with CLT connection  that were over $1,000 originating from here. 

AA is just screwing this city on airfare due to lack of competition. 

Vice versa, we would probably have just one or two flights daily to Europe without a hub, even in summer.

Edited June 19, 2018 by CLT2014

[49er]

If you're a leisure traveller paying for yourself and a family those direct flights don't matter when they are market up 2-3x what they are elsewhere.  AA conveniently screws over locals here. If you're a business traveller, the service is excellent and the company is picking up the bill so who cares what the flight cost is. I'm glad to see low cost airlines coming in and offering competition. 

[cjd5050]

22 hours ago, LKN704 said:

It's definitely lack of demand.

There are plenty of other fortress hubs that have more other-airline service than CLT has. MSP has service to SEA/PDX/SAN on Alaska, in addition to service to SFO on UA. DTW has service to SEA/PDX on Alaska, along with service to SFO on UA.  ATL has service to LAX on AA, SEA/PDX on Alaska, and 

I will say it is unfair to compare CLT to any of these hubs, simply because they are all larger than CLT in population. The closest hub in population size to CLT is SLC, which suffers from a similar lack of other-airline service. The only flights on non-DL legacy carriers from SLC to east-coast hubs that operate year-round are to CLT and EWR, at a measly single daily flight each. There's no service to IAD/MIA/DCA, although east coast cities are accessible nonstop on JetBlue and Southwest. 

I personally find RDU to be cheaper than CLT, especially on flights to the West coast-where there is often no comparison. On flights within the East coast (NYC especially) I usually find CLT to be cheaper.

A quick search on Google flights yielded the following results, for a round trip departing on 18 July and returning on 20 July:

RDU-SFO: $397 on both UA and Alaska (UA flies twice daily, Alaska flies once daily)

RDU-LAX: $391 on AA (AA flies RDU-LAX twice daily, as does DL)

RDU-SEA: $446 on Delta (Alaska also flies nonstop, but it was priced at $617)

CLT-SEA: $707 (4 AA nonstops/day)

CLT-LAX: $1025 (5 AA nonstops/day)

CLT-SFO: $827 (6 AA nonstops/day)

 

There is no comparison. 

At the same time, we really should not be complaining. It is the high ticket prices on AA that are essentially subsidizing the large AA hub here (due to the lack of demand). 

 

CLT <> SFO

I think you have some selective criteria here.  The SFO pricing has more to do with Wells Fargo than American Airlines.  You picked coming back on Friday...which is prime for bankers.  If you adjust your flight search from departing Wednesday, July 18th to Thursday, July 19th and coming back Saturday, July 21st rather than Friday, July 20th you're presented with the same  6 nonstop flights but they average $382.00.  Which is cheaper than your RDU flights on different days and cheaper than RDU on the same schedule.  

I fly to SFO for work often.  If I want to fly with the bankers I know I am going to pay more and I make that call.  Most often I just hang out in SF for the night and eat great food and drink awesome beer.  

 

CLT <> LAX

For this flight, again, if you switch the days to Thur/Sat you go to just $659 from $1025.   If you go to Wed/Sun it drops to $447.   It's just basic supply and demand.  

30 minutes ago, 49er said:

If you're a leisure traveller paying for yourself and a family those direct flights don't matter when they are market up 2-3x what they are elsewhere.  AA conveniently screws over locals here. If you're a business traveller, the service is excellent and the company is picking up the bill so who cares what the flight cost is. I'm glad to see low cost airlines coming in and offering competition. 

If you're a leisure traveler you don't fly from Charlotte to San Fran on a two day trip in the middle of the week.    As shown above, they are not marked up 2X or 3X.    

AA makes a nice profit on flying bankers from coast to coast.  It doesn't scree locals over here in the slightest.  It actually gives us lots of nonstop flight options each day and if you're flexible you can find some great deals.  

[49er]

I know how to use google flights, thanks. Look, it has been a constant fact that CLT has some of the highest airfares in the country and there's no debating that fact. There's no need to defend AA here. They know they don't have much competition here.  

If you get behind the paywall this is an excellent article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-an-american-airlines-monopoly-works-for-charlotte-1519225740

 

[cjd5050]

1 minute ago, 49er said:

I know how to use google flights, thanks. Look, it has been a constant fact that CLT has some of the highest airfares in the country and there's no debating that fact. There's no need to defend AA here. They know they don't have much competition here.  

If you get behind the paywall this is an excellent article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-an-american-airlines-monopoly-works-for-charlotte-1519225740

 

I am not defending AA.  I am just simply pointing out facts and cherry-picking data isn't helpful.   I think your view is a bit shortsighted in that you're only looking at the price.  You're not considering the volume of flights and the number of destinations.   Charlotte has 700+ daily flights which is absurd for a city our size.   Nashville has like 450.  Raleigh has 400 it appears.   These extra flights provide benefit and come at a cost.  

We have 3 daily nonstop flights to Buffalo.  Buffalo!  I know for a fact that these flights support several companies in the region that are here because of the connectivity.   Now can I get a cheaper flight out of Raleigh?  Yes.  But it comes with a layover.    There a 10s of cities like Buffalo that the HUB status of AA is driving companies to set up operations here.  There is no debating this fact either.  

Does Charlotte have higher prices than other cities?  I guess, but as I pointed out that's not always the case.  You might agree if you were better at using Google Flights.  Does Charlotte have way more flights, nonstop flights, and destinations than other cities its size?  Yes.  Bank of America and Wells Fargo depend on this volume.  Charlotte depends on BofA and Wells Fargo.  

To look at just one data point and complain is shortsighted and unproductive.  

 

 

 

 

 

[KJHburg]

In other news American Airlines employs 11,000 here in Charlotte just saw that in the Business Journal last week. 

[deleted]

33 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

I am not defending AA.  I am just simply pointing out facts and cherry-picking data isn't helpful.   I think your view is a bit shortsighted in that you're only looking at the price.  You're not considering the volume of flights and the number of destinations.   Charlotte has 700+ daily flights which is absurd for a city our size.   Nashville has like 450.  Raleigh has 400 it appears.   These extra flights provide benefit and come at a cost.  

We have 3 daily nonstop flights to Buffalo.  Buffalo!  I know for a fact that these flights support several companies in the region that are here because of the connectivity.   Now can I get a cheaper flight out of Raleigh?  Yes.  But it comes with a layover.    There a 10s of cities like Buffalo that the HUB status of AA is driving companies to set up operations here.  There is no debating this fact either.  

Does Charlotte have higher prices than other cities?  I guess, but as I pointed out that's not always the case.  You might agree if you were better at using Google Flights.  Does Charlotte have way more flights, nonstop flights, and destinations than other cities its size?  Yes.  Bank of America and Wells Fargo depend on this volume.  Charlotte depends on BofA and Wells Fargo.  

To look at just one data point and complain is shortsighted and unproductive.  

 

 

 

 

 

And...what impact has CLT had on Charlotte growth and economic development in the city?  Personally, I'll gladly pay more for flights to have AA hub here (and I don't even like flying American).

[cjd5050]

3 minutes ago, JBS said:

And...what impact has CLT had on Charlotte growth and economic development in the city?  Personally, I'll gladly pay more for flights to have AA hub here (and I don't even like flying American).

Agree.  Can't tell you how many layovers I have had in Atlanta because Delta thinks Atlanta is on the way to everywhere or having to fly past my destination city only to be rerouted back on a puddle jumper.  

[JacksonH]

I was in North Carolina last week visiting family.  I flew in and out of Charlotte.  I took these pictures Sunday from the plane when I was about to fly out.  This is the new terminal.  I have no idea what it looks like on the inside, but from the outside it looks like it could be opening any day now.