Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[15895]

That's a lot more passengers than the international flights we'll lose

Just not as sexy as Lisbon or Brussels etc lol

[atlrvr]

Maybe I overestimate the marginal impact of routing those additional passengers through Charlotte, but I assume what makes Atlanta a successful international hub is having so many smaller markets connect through there that is only 1 person per domestic route wants to travel internationally, the sum of all those passengers supports some very interesting market.

 

In other words, if AA connects Charlotte to every market, and its cheap to fly people through here, the pure number of possible connecting passengers makes Lisbon, Brussels, etc viable at some point.  Obviously we weren't at that tipping point yet (especially when we lost Star Alliance connections on the other end), but biggest airline, biggest east coast hub, etc etc eventually = profit???  I'm sure these 3 new markets probably arent the tipping point either, but I do feel like domestic traffic will increase here further as you have loyal AA flyers with a better located east coast hub.  I dunno, I'm just sort of rambling.

[15895]

^ I agree domestically. We gain more because of our sheer size.

But

Internationally speaking, the folks at these new destinations also have 1 stop connections via Chicago, Dallas and the European powerhouse of Philadelphia.

I think the biggest winner here is Philadelphia. I think Philly has a tonnnn of potential. Though whether it can physically accommodate "potential", I'm not sure

[ScottCLT]

Miles question: Does anyone know if separate pools of American miles and USAir miles will eventually be made into one pool? That is, if you have 50k miles in one and 50k miles in the other, they'll come together in one account with 100k miles?

I asked US Airways this on their Facebook page and they said that a decision hasn't been made yet.

[Miesian Corners]

^ I agree domestically. We gain more because of our sheer size.

But

Internationally speaking, the folks at these new destinations also have 1 stop connections via Chicago, Dallas and the European powerhouse of Philadelphia.

I think the biggest winner here is Philadelphia. I think Philly has a tonnnn of potential. Though whether it can physically accommodate "potential", I'm not sure

I'll have to disagree with you--only because the PHL airfield and airspace are already saturated.  The joke among US Airways employees is that if a cloud passes over PHL, there'll be a ground stop and a 3-hour delay.  It's referred to as the "Philly Phactor". 

[15895]

I'll have to disagree with you--only because the PHL airfield and airspace are already saturated. The joke among US Airways employees is that if a cloud passes over PHL, there'll be a ground stop and a 3-hour delay. It's referred to as the "Philly Phactor".

I figured. That's why I said "Whether it can physically accommodate that potential..."

[southslider]

Philly can't compete with the O&D traffic of New York, Chicago or Dallas. But lower cost can sustain a connecting hub. So then why wouldn't cheaper Charlotte replace Philly as the European hub?

[15895]

Philly can't compete with the O&D traffic of New York, Chicago or Dallas. But lower cost can sustain a connecting hub. So then why wouldn't cheaper Charlotte replace Philly as the European hub?

Because Charlotte can't compete with Philadelphia O&D wise.

If premium local passengers at Philadelphis fill up 1/2 the aircraft, fill up the rest of the 1/2 with connecting traffic.

If premium local passengers at Charlotte fill up 1/30 of the aircraft, well, you get the picture

[kickazzz2000]

Philly can't compete with the O&D traffic of New York, Chicago or Dallas. But lower cost can sustain a connecting hub. So then why wouldn't cheaper Charlotte replace Philly as the European hub?

In NYC you are sharing all that O/D with Delta at JFK, United at Newark, and all the foreign flag carriers at both.

In Chicago you are sharing all that O/D with United, and some foreign flag carriers.

In Dallas, you are minting money, but Dallas isn't optimally located to be a Euro hub for most of the US population.

 

Charlotte will be a force in 10-15 years as the city's population and O/D grows to match the hub size. 

[km1789]

forgive my naivete but what is O/D ?

[uptownliving]

forgive my naivete but what is O/D ?

 

Stands for Origin/Destination. It is the passengers that are NOT connecting in Charlotte but where Charlotte is their destination.

[cltbwimob]

Because Charlotte can't compete with Philadelphia O&D wise.

If premium local passengers at Philadelphis fill up 1/2 the aircraft, fill up the rest of the 1/2 with connecting traffic.

If premium local passengers at Charlotte fill up 1/30 of the aircraft, well, you get the picture

The only quibble I have with your post is that O/D from Charlotte is about 5/8 of the O/D at Philly not the 1/15 ratio you implied, at least on the domestic side.  I have not seen international O/D numbers, but Charlotte's domestic O/D has risen to just under 10 million pax per year in the past few years.  Philly's O/D is approximately 16 million pax per year.  Of course the ratio still looks much nicer for Philly, but that is partially due to Charlotte having a much larger O/D+Connecting passenger number.

 

In other news, it may be too early to open the champagne, but British Airways and US Airways just announced a code share as part of US joining the transatlantic anti-trust alliance.  I think that it will not be too long before we see British Airways serving Charlotte again.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/morning-edition/2014/05/us-airways-announces-codeshare-with-british.html

[ChessieCat]

PHL's O&D number also cherry picks East Coast passengers from other markets who take Amtrak to 30th street station, then hop on on the Airport Line commuter rail straight to the aiport terminals. EWR and BWI do the same thing due to their locations along Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. You can think of BWI, PHL, and EWR as one gigantic international O&D market to be fought over and by extension IAD, JFK, and BOS (the entire Eastern Seaboard)...

The latest news is that the City of Philly has apprved a $6.4 Billion expansion of PHL. As you can imply in the article, the airport is space constrained and will remain that way. The expansion will focus on renovating what already exists:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/05/05/official-pact-enables-philly-airport-expansion/

Edited May 7, 2014 by ChessieCat

[allthingsplanes]

I also don't think I'm alone in the thought that O&D for Charlotte is only going to rise in the coming years.  So while some flights might not make great sense now, I don't think it will be too long until we're more relevant in that conversation.

[ssh214]

I can almost guarantee you if the prices out of Charlotte were lower you would see O/D numbers go way up, I can't tell you how many times I have heard people flying out of GSO or RDU and even connecting through Charlotte because there was a $500 price difference. I am doing that myself on Tuesday, I have to drive to Raleigh for a 5:20AM flight connect through Charlotte and get to Fort Lauderdale at 9:30 to come back at night (trying to see if I can just hop off the plane in Charlotte.

 

I am so hoping JetBlue resumes service to Fort Lauderdale or Spirit starts up service down there (apparently Spirit is moving its operations from FLL to Miami). Ever since American and US Airways merged the prices have doubled to South Florida. 

[LKN704]

Domestic O/D will rise in the coming years, yes. But I don't believe International O/D will rise significantly unless a new international business relocates to Charlotte or something along those lines. Airlines aren't after Domestic O/D. They are after International O/D.

 

^If you hop off the plane at CLT, think about it before you do it. A friend of mine had their frequent flyer account disabled and locked after she did a similar itinerary. Doing such things violates the airline's terms and conditions you accept when you buy a ticket.

 

Interestingly enough, RDU and CLT have pretty much the same O/D levels, despite CLT having a larger metro area.

[allthingsplanes]

I can almost guarantee you if the prices out of Charlotte were lower you would see O/D numbers go way up, I can't tell you how many times I have heard people flying out of GSO or RDU and even connecting through Charlotte because there was a $500 price difference. I am doing that myself on Tuesday, I have to drive to Raleigh for a 5:20AM flight connect through Charlotte and get to Fort Lauderdale at 9:30 to come back at night (trying to see if I can just hop off the plane in Charlotte.

 

I am so hoping JetBlue resumes service to Fort Lauderdale or Spirit starts up service down there (apparently Spirit is moving its operations from FLL to Miami). Ever since American and US Airways merged the prices have doubled to South Florida. 

 

I always hear that about Charlotte / US Airways, but on any trip I look at I usually compare costs at other regional airports.  And at least half the time the flight into Charlotte is just as cheap if not cheaper.  

[ssh214]

Domestic O/D will rise in the coming years, yes. But I don't believe International O/D will rise significantly unless a new international business relocates to Charlotte or something along those lines. Airlines aren't after Domestic O/D. They are after International O/D.

 

^If you hop off the plane at CLT, think about it before you do it. A friend of mine had their frequent flyer account disabled and locked after she did a similar itinerary. Doing such things violates the airline's terms and conditions you accept when you buy a ticket.

 

Interestingly enough, RDU and CLT have pretty much the same O/D levels, despite CLT having a larger metro area.

 

Yea I heard that they can cancel it too, I've done it once before myself and I know so many people who have done it multiple times. I just don't feel like driving 2 hours back to Charlotte from Raleigh after a long day of meetings... I wish I did more business in NYC; tickets are so cheap flying there because there are 4 different airlines that fly to the NYC area from Charlotte.

[uptownliving]

The latest news is that the City of Philly has apprved a $6.4 Billion expansion of PHL. As you can imply in the article, the airport is space constrained and will remain that way. The expansion will focus on renovating what already exists:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/05/05/official-pact-enables-philly-airport-expansion/

 

And American has gone on the record saying they don't think the expansion is necessary and will cost wayyyyyy too much and very well miht end up in American reducing service to Philly.

[ChessieCat]

Yea I heard that they can cancel it too, I've done it once before myself and I know so many people who have done it multiple times. I just don't feel like driving 2 hours back to Charlotte from Raleigh after a long day of meetings... I wish I did more business in NYC; tickets are so cheap flying there because there are 4 different airlines that fly to the NYC area from Charlotte.

I've done "Hidden City" Ticketing plenty of times on US and they've never suspended my FF account. If I need a one-way ticket back to CLT I'll schedule it to CAE, ATL, or MCO and save $$$. You can go to kayak.com/explore to find the cheapest one-way destinations from CLT in a certain timeframe. The cardinal rule is don't check a bag (obviously). Even Nate Silver has written an article about the wonders of Hidden City ticketing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08subversion-t.html?_r=0

[ssh214]

I've done "Hidden City" Ticketing plenty of times on US and they've never suspended my FF account. If I need a one-way ticket back to CLT I'll schedule it to CAE, ATL, or MCO and save $$$. You can go to kayak.com/explore to find the cheapest one-way destinations from CLT in a certain timeframe. The cardinal rule is don't check a bag (obviously). Even Nate Silver has written an article about the wonders of Hidden City ticketing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08subversion-t.html?_r=0

Thanks for the article, that was a pretty interesting read. I wonder if airlines have cracked down more so since the article was written in 2011. I have never heard of anybody being caught, but I guess it sometimes can happen... I guess you could always play the I didn't know you couldn't do that card as well, especially if you're a preferred member, the airline isn't going to want to lose your business.

[CLTaviation13]

I can almost guarantee you if the prices out of Charlotte were lower you would see O/D numbers go way up, I can't tell you how many times I have heard people flying out of GSO or RDU and even connecting through Charlotte because there was a $500 price difference. I am doing that myself on Tuesday, I have to drive to Raleigh for a 5:20AM flight connect through Charlotte and get to Fort Lauderdale at 9:30 to come back at night (trying to see if I can just hop off the plane in Charlotte.

 

I am so hoping JetBlue resumes service to Fort Lauderdale or Spirit starts up service down there (apparently Spirit is moving its operations from FLL to Miami). Ever since American and US Airways merged the prices have doubled to South Florida.

I'm right with you. I really want jetBlue to resume FLL. Missed it since they ended. Once they changed the times, the route tanked. As long as they connect the flight to the cruises in the FLL area and connect passengers to popular cities in the Caribbean...they'll be fine!

[15895]

And American has gone on the record saying they don't think the expansion is necessary and will cost wayyyyyy too much and very well miht end up in American reducing service to Philly.

Just curious:the new American has said that or just US?

[uptownliving]

Just curious:the new American has said that or just US?

 

Both, really the management of old US and new American is the same. But in response to the announcement of the new Philly agreement American had a press release where they stated they didn't think that a new runway at Philly was required and the project would likely raise the price of doing business at Philly to the point where they would start cutting flights.

[Matthew.Brendan]

How would that possibly raise the cost of doing business?