Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Deleted.]

Just to let you know, PHL-ZRH is on a 767-200 not an A330-200! Also there is 15 A330-200s not 13.

So this is what the A330 schedule for next summer looks like:

Charlotte-

LHR, CDG, FCO- Airbus A330-300 X3

LHR, DUB, BCN, MAD, FRA (X2)- Airbus A330-200 X6

Philadelphia-

LHR, CDG, MAD, FCO, VCE- Airbus A330-300 X5

MAN, DUB, BCN, FRA (X2), MUC, ZRH, ATH, TLV (X2)- Airbus A330-200 X10

Number of A330-300s scheduled- 8/9

Number of A330-200s scheduled- 16/15

So we have overscheduled the number of A330-200s flying next summer, but there is one A330-300 not scheduled, so one A330-200 route is now likely to get upgauged.

And for the person that says, expect the A330s to migrate to Miami, no, the A330 is the perfect aircraft for Charlotte and Philadelphia, they serve mainly leisure destinations, with low demand for paid business class seats. Miami on the other hand has high demand for paid business class seats and cargo, and the 767, 777 and eventually the 787, is the perfect aircraft for Miami, higher number of business class seats (compared to the A330), able to carry a lot of cargo and low operating costs on mid-hauls to Latin America.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Piedmont767

[USAir767]

Just to let you know, PHL-ZRH is on a 767-200 not an A330-200! Also there is 15 A330-200s not 13.

So this is what the A330 schedule for next summer looks like:

Charlotte-

LHR, CDG, FCO- Airbus A330-300 X3

LHR, DUB, BCN, MAD, FRA (X2)- Airbus A330-200 X6

Philadelphia-

LHR, CDG, MAD, FCO, VCE- Airbus A330-300 X5

MAN, DUB, BCN, FRA (X2), MUC, ATH, TLV (X2)- Airbus A330-200 X9

Number of A330-300s scheduled- 8/9

Number of A330-200s scheduled- 15/15

So if I have not missed anything, there is actual one A330-300 not scheduled.

And for the person that says, expect the A330s to migrate to Miami, no, the A330 is the perfect aircraft for Charlotte and Philadelphia, they serve mainly leisure destinations, with low demand for paid business class seats. Miami on the other hand has high demand for business class traffic and cargo, and the 767, 777 and eventually the 787, is the perfect aircraft for Miami, higher number of business class seats (compared to the A330), able to carry a lot of cargo and low operating costs on mid-hauls to Latin America.

I looked at PHL-ZRH for a random day in May on the US Airways site and it showed A330-200. Is that a glitch in the system? Won't all 767s be gone before then?

[15895]

Meanwhile over on a.net. The CLT haters are busy convincing everyone that these new schedules are set. I guess they are disappointed we didn't lose all of our Euro flights except LHR, FRA, MAD, and CDG.

Because their is "no way" CLT is going to remain an International hub.

Expect in 2-3 years all of Charlotte's international flights to be shifted to RDU.

Source: The rumors going around my Toy airport.

I actually dont think Summer 2015 will be the best indicator. Don't US Air flights have to be flown from US hubs with US flight crews or something like that? And Legacy American equipment has to stay at Legacy American hubs with American flight crews?

For example if The 330's had to be flown from US based with US crew, doesn't it make sense to continue to fly, say Barcelona, until you could deploy aicraft in the entire American system? As opposed to flying then domestic. It appeases Charlotte in the mean time and better than flooding seats Charlotte/Philly - Orlando.

I'm not too familiar so someone with more knowledge on the subject will have to correct me. I'm just trying to not be overly optimistic.

Edited October 13, 2014 by AirNostrumMAD

[Lloyds5]

Expect in 2-3 years all of Charlotte's international flights to be shifted to RDU.

Source: The rumors going around my Toy airport.

I actually dont think Summer 2015 will be the best indicator. Don't US Air flights have to be flown from US hubs with US flight crews or something like that? And Legacy American equipment has to stay at Legacy American hubs with American flight crews?

For example if The 330's had to be flown from US based with US crew, doesn't it make sense to continue to fly, say Barcelona, until you could deploy aicraft in the entire American system? As opposed to flying then domestic. It appeases Charlotte in the mean time and better than flooding seats Charlotte/Philly - Orlando.

I'm not too familiar so someone with more knowledge on the subject will have to correct me. I'm just trying to not be overly optimistic

Yes you are 100% correct about aircraft and true cross fleeting, this wont begin until US/AA have one operating certificate. And that is not scheduled to happen until late 2015. Everybody is excited about all the A330's in CLT, I believe US was forced to schedule all the A330's because there was no other place to fly them in the US system. The increased capacity is actually bad because it will be harder to fill larger aircraft with travel to Europe down(look at US/AA Atlantic numbers for last quarter). Air Nostrum you  have clarified exactly whats happening in this 2015 schedule. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Lloyds5

[CltFlyer]

I'm not suggesting some of the routes are going to permanently stay on 330's, because I'm sure several will be switched to 76W's when possible, but it gives me confidence that many of CLT's Euro routes are doing good enough to stick around at some level.

[southslider]

RDU seems too close to IAD to create another international hub by the same carrier. CLT is definitely close to ATL, but fortunately, two separate carriers.

[Lloyds5]

I looked at PHL-ZRH for a random day in May on the US Airways site and it showed A330-200. Is that a glitch in the system? Won't all 767s be gone before then?

Its not a glitch the may schedules are showing an A330-200 on PHL-ZRH. So US is over scheduled for summer 2015 flying. I think we will see PHL/CLT-FRA each reduced  to one daily. This will leave one aircraft as a spare just like the A330-300 is scheduled with one spare.This is confirms that this schedule is provisional at this time.  

[Deleted.]

Its not a glitch the may schedules are showing an A330-200 on PHL-ZRH. So US is over scheduled for summer 2015 flying. I think we will see PHL/CLT-FRA each reduced to one daily. This will leave one aircraft as a spare just like the A330-300 is scheduled with one spare.This is confirms that this schedule is provisional at this time.

I can tell you that CLT-FRA will most likely stay double daily in the summer as we carry a lot of cargo on this route and with many Germans connecting through Charlotte both flights are full. As we are not in *A anymore, and with the fact the LH also flies PHL-FRA with a A340, I would have to guess that the three daily flights to FRA from Philly (2x US, 1x LH) will now just be two daily flights (1x US/AA, 1x LH).

As for PHL-ZRH, looking at the OAG Schedule, next year weekly frequences have been reduced, maybe an indication that this route is actually planned to be on an A330-200. As somebody else said, the 762s are being retired so the flights have to either be uogauged to A330s or downgauged to 752, so I guess PHL-ZRH has enough traffic to justify daily 767-200 service or 5x weekly A330-200 service. If that is the case, then US has overscheduled A330-200s, but still has one unscheduled A330-300, so maybe a Philadelphia route (such as Manchester) may be upgauged to an A330-300 instead of an A330-200.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Piedmont767

[RALNATIVE]

How about instead of expanding, CLT focuses on improving the terminals and gates that they currently have. Those corridors in Terminals B and C are horrific. They are always jammed during peak travel times and people are bumping into each other all over the place.

 

While they're at it, they may also want to get rid of those ridiculous bathroom attendants...

[tozmervo]

Well, count my vote in favor of the bathroom attendants. Makes it feel less institutional. I like 'em

[tarhoosier]

Last Friday I had the pleasure of a crooning attendant, sing-saying "Welcome to Charlotte Airport, have a wonderful day" and other such. Real human voice and apparent authenticity. A personal touch in an anti-personal institution.

[HopHead]

I just read that Doug Parker announced that AA will launch Miami- Frankfurt in the first half of 2015. Why am I getting a bad feeling this wont be good for CLT. Its in todays Miami Examiner. Am I being paranoid because of my conversations with some of the AA management in Dallas?   

 

I think that may be a little bit of paranoia. Charlotte has a large contingency of German companies based here or with significant operations so that's likely to stay. 

[kickazzz2000]

MAH is already speculating that it's Charlottes second daily flight and why wouldn't it be because MIA is the second largest destination from Frankfurt in the US blah blah blah blah

[15895]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Charlotte's Frankfurt flight to Miami.

I think American's schedule to Frankfurt would be this:

2x Charlotte

2x Philadelphia

1x Miami

1x Dallas

Seems like a lot of flights to Frankfurt.

[Lloyds5]

If both the PHL and CLT flights to FRA are transferred to AA Hubs that will solve the A330-200 aircraft utilization problem as those routes will be operated with AA aircraft and crews. I think if the MIA flight actually happens it will be hard for AA to maintain flights from all 4 or 5 hubs if the PHL frequency is moved as well to JFK or ORD. But its been very clear to me that the 2015 schedule was provisional, this news almost confirms it.   

Edited October 16, 2014 by Lloyds5

[Miesian Corners]

AA dropped MIA FRA because it couldn't compete with Lufthansa. It's the same reason AA doesn't fly JFK FRA. Could it start service again in those markets? Sure. But if it does, it will be because it thinks O&D numbers can support them. CLT and PHL work best for the connecting opportunities they provide. The sky is not falling.

[Lloyds5]

Someone said that they can see AA/US dropping CLT-FRA completely for JFK and MIA. And it wasn't MAH or Miami.

 

He said "I can see them dropping CLT-FRA for MIA-FRA and JFK-FRA instead."

I dont see Mia-Fra working, they will launch it but I dont see it working or sticking around real long.... I think they are trying to make this run on O&D but without connections I dont know they can make this route work  

[LKN704]

Hate to go far off topic, but how is MIA such a "premium" market like everyone says it is? It is a tourist destination and it also caters to the VFR (visiting friends and relatives) market flying down to South America, which also tends to be low-yielding.

[Lloyds5]

Miami is actually both, it is a major banking center lots of money flows into it from Latin America. Many Latin American companies have US headquarters in Miami, so it is really a premium market as well as a VFR market to Latin America. To Europe it tends to be more touristy traffic...

Edited October 17, 2014 by Lloyds5

[cltbwimob]

Why do I feel like the sky is actually falling. With two Brazil flights cut, three European flights cut and now maybe a fourth if the second Frankfurt frequency is cut. That would mean 50% of our long Haul international flights will have been lost in one year. Other Hubs are getting more international flights i.e DFW to Asia, MIA to Fra, PHL to DOH. And nothing but a several regional jet flights for CLT. Again this merger is very disappointing to me, maybe we all got caught up in the "we are a big city and are special" mentality and now US/AA is telling us- you are not special.... Just my two cents from someone who is very proud of Charlotte and CLT.

The sky is not falling, at least not yet. The three flights to Europe we lost were only around for a single 4-5 month season, and one has to know that Brussels and Lisbon were never going to stay. Furthermore, everyone just assumes the seasonal FRA flight will go to MIA, but its a little premature to assume that considering they do not even have a start date. However, even if it does, it is a seasonal flight that was only with us the past two seasons. Finally, I would not be paranoid about what you heard in Dallas. Unless you were speaking directly to Doug Parker, Scott Kirby, Robert Isom, or some top executive from route planning, I would be skeptical of anything stated. Even if we lose the flights mentioned we go back to 2012 service levels for long-haul intercontinental flying.

I hate to say it, but I think you may be right. More than just international flights are going to MIA -- domestic flights are up too. Yeah, AA may be about to screw CLT.

They have only added four destinations that I know of, and they were four large destinations that probably should have been added to Miami a long time ago. Miami will never be the connecting hub that Charlotte is. If the airline were to shift even 10 million connecting pax per year to Miami, it would cause costs to go up by hundreds of millions of dollars. They may shift Brazil traffic to Miami, but it will never handle 30+ million connecting passengers per year, and the 500+ additional flights that would be required to do so. Even with the modest expansion at Miami, execs are already lamenting the lack of gate space. Edited October 17, 2014 by cltbwimob

[clt29301]

Hate to go far off topic, but how is MIA such a "premium" market like everyone says it is? It is a tourist destination and it also caters to the VFR (visiting friends and relatives) market flying down to South America, which also tends to be low-yielding.

The top employers in Miami are government related, the finance sector is very small at less than 10% of total employment. The largest sector is trade & transit related to the port. Miami is a large metro but not a business center with a lot of Fortune 500 HQ (4).

This thread is interesting to read, PHL makes improvements to the airport and this is a barometer of future air service.........couple of thoughts, what condition was the cargo facility, who paid for the improvements, and how was financing arranged. Some on here use the most minute details to argue that Charlotte is on the brink of collapse but completely ignore basic demographics and the changes in aircraft.

[clt29301]

From my perspective, I am just upset about the shrinking international routes from CLT. I never meant to suggest that our airport would lose Hub status. But it is becoming clear to me that we will lose a lot of our international flights- something I was very proud of. I know mergers happen all the time but this one is not turning out like I expected. I really believed  AA would launch more flights to South America, Europe and even Japan. Instead, I see nothing but retrenchment for international flights at CLT.

You're fine. There are a few who would cite a new door in PHL as evidence that it is more important to AA than CLT.....even though CLT is expanding by over $1b. As for international, the SA flights surprised me when they were initiated so I was not surprised to see them go and Miami makes sense in this respect. A lot of the European flights make sense with the large concentration of Euro businesses in the Carolinas. And, I am not sold that an airline would run 700 flights into an airport and not offer some international service, that logically makes as much sense as a Miami southeast hub. Besides, new aircraft products make the smaller large cities more profitable as an international gateway as shown by The BA flight between London and Austin. Anyway, the folks who are making the decisions are not talking and certainly not telling strangers in hotels proprietary information as some have suggested.

[15895]

Airport expansion has heavy, heavy input from American. So in essence, American is investing in CLT.

I think it's crazy to suggest we lose any domestic service to any other hubs. But our international flights, most of them (and we have already, really) wouldn't shock me to go.

But really, the new domestic flights we got from American is outweighing the international we lost. Some of the new flights are 3 daily, 7 days a week year around vs. seasonal, couple months, 5x a week etc.

It's really just the loss of the novelty of saying we have flights to Brussels. Brussels is sexier than Evansville....

[ssh214]

On a completely different note, I just landed in CLT from MIA and there were emergency vehicles all over the place tonight... Does anyone know what happened??

[atlrvr]

MODERATOR NOTE:  Lloyds5 and metrolina are the same poster based on IP trace and apparantly based oin suburban Philadelphia.  While I normally wouldn't out that info, blatant misrepresentation of material facts is harmful to all users of this forum (metrolina being the poster claiming to have met with high level AA executives in Dalls recently)  I believe I have deleted all metrolina posts.  Any ban would have to come from higher up powers that be, but please don't feed the troll.  Though I will try to aggressively moderate this thread, I would appreciate everyone's assistance in ignoring the misrepresented nonsense.