Charlotte's Urban Lowe's Home Improvement

[rockhilljames]

"It's all Bush's fault!!"

Gosh that's easy! ...and it feels good too!

I used to work construction and can say with confidence that many construction workers are itinerant and have extensive criminal records. There are, of course, professionals as well. But let's just say you locked your toolbox if you went off-site.

[Conformity]

It is not accurate to say that large format retailers preclude the entrance of small proprietorships or inform the demise presently of those proprietorships extant upon the arrival of large format retailers. Or to be more concise....to say such in a general and overarching way, is not accurate.

[monsoon]

^It's an established fact the big boxes killed off much of independent retail. There are retail-less downtown all over the South, including Charlotte that are testimats to this legacy.

"It's all Bush's fault!!"

Gosh that's easy! ...and it feels good too!.

Ahh yeah this is the only defense he has these days. Ignore what he as done and make an issue of the person calling him out.

[New Name]

^It's an established fact the big boxes killed off much of independent retail. There are retail-less downtown all over the South, including Charlotte that are testimats to this legacy.

Don't blame the ambiguous face of "big boxes." Blame globalism and outsourcing.

[monsoon]

Don't blame the ambiguous face of "big boxes." Blame globalism and outsourcing.

Not even close. Retail was killed off by the big boxes long before globaism and outsourcing took hold. Those items just, more recently, made it easier to pull it off.

[krazeeboi]

As they say, retail follows rooftops. The rooftops started moving out to the 'burbs, and so did the retail. Big box retail wasn't the primary cause of the death of local mom-and-pop shops, but was merely an outgrowth of the primary cause (suburban sprawl).

We also can't forget that large-scale retailers in the form of department stores (Belk, Macy's, etc.) once anchored our downtowns. They simply changed locations and forms.

[Justadude]

Don't blame the ambiguous face of "big boxes." Blame globalism and outsourcing.

Best I can tell, retail sales jobs can't be outsourced.

[monsoon]

....

We also can't forget that large-scale retailers in the form of department stores (Belk, Macy's, etc.) once anchored our downtowns. They simply changed locations and forms.

These were not the same thing. Sure they were larger, but they were in the center of Charlotte too. The difference is they were standalone stores and not huge chains in those days, and tended to sell locally produced merchandise in small "departments". There is little resemblance to these kind of department stores and what they have become in "name" now. In fact the only way to see something similar now is to leave the United States for the most part. They did not have the huge buying volumes and thus used that leverage to out price the local competition. If you want to turn the "urban lowes" into the same thing, then take away all the parking. That store would not last one week.

If anyone here thinks that putting Best Buy, Target, Staples and Lowes in close proximity to downtown is going to somehow make it a great urban place then guess again, its not. You mentioned "suburban sprawl", which has morphed into a term to mean not in downtown = bad, but this is exactly what is being recreated in crescent right around I-277 despite being just a few blocks from Trade and Tryon.

[rockhilljames]

Ahh yeah this is the only defense he has these days. Ignore what he as done and make an issue of the person calling him out.

First off, I'm not defending him, or making an issue of you. I just find it funny that no matter what seems to be the problem these days people blame Bush. It seems he's become the general scapegoat for all the world's ills. It often trivializes much more complex situations and circumstances that have far more to do with things other than Bush's actions (or lack thereof). That's true for every President, but seems to have reached a derangement syndrome with our current one.

Regardless, the current climate is very difficult for independent retailers. My biggest problem with the current economic model of big-box retailers is that we now live in a society that sacrifices quality for price. Items that used to last for years if not a lifetime now have to be replaced every 5 years or so. I don't blame the retailers, though. It's the consumer who cast the deciding vote.

Back to the discussion of Lowe's. If you are going to have big-box retail close to, or located in, downtown, I think this is a good model of how to create a positive mixed-use development.

[monsoon]

First off, I'm not defending him, or making an issue of you. I just find it funny that no matter what seems to be the problem these days people blame Bush. It seems he's become the general scapegoat for all the world's ills. It often trivializes much more complex situations and circumstances that have far more to do with things other than Bush's actions (or lack thereof). That's true for every President, but seems to have reached a derangement syndrome with our current one...

You say you are not defending him but that is what you are doing. First of all I didn't blame all the world's problems on Bush. I didn't even blame the crime around Lowes on him. In fact I said that Bush's policies had nothing to do with this crime rise. You can read above to see what I said about that, but obviously you didn't consider it. Second you can make an issue out of me if you wish, but if you do then at least try to be specific about it. It's a logical fallacy at best since as far as I can see you didn't cite anything that I actually said but instead tried to associate me with deranged people. geez.

[krazeeboi]

You mentioned "suburban sprawl", which has morphed into a term to mean not in downtown = bad, but this is exactly what is being recreated in crescent right around I-277 despite being just a few blocks from Trade and Tryon.

I was referring to the rise of suburbia in the 60's and 70's, made possibly by national and local policy, that began to suck the life and vitality out of downtowns all across the nation in terms of housing and retail. This is what caused independent retail to suffer. Big boxes weren't the primary cause.

[monsoon]

I was referring to the rise of suburbia in the 60's and 70's, made possibly by national and local policy, that began to suck the life and vitality out of downtowns all across the nation in terms of housing and retail. This is what caused independent retail to suffer. Big boxes weren't the primary cause.

Charlotte's first suburbs were built in the 1920s not the 60s and 70s. I once rented a house near Eastland mall that was built in 1959 so Charlotte had already spread out that far by that point yet downtown was still vibrant in 1959. I get this from my parents who were living in Plaza Midwood in the early 60s in a house that was built in 1945, also a suburb but they still shopped local retailers in downtown.

[rockhilljames]

You say you are not defending him but that is what you are doing. First of all I didn't blame all the world's problems on Bush. I didn't even blame the crime around Lowes on him. In fact I said that Bush's policies had nothing to do with this crime rise. You can read above to see what I said about that, but obviously you didn't consider it. Second you can make an issue out of me if you wish, but if you do then at least try to be specific about it. It's a logical fallacy at best since as far as I can see you didn't cite anything that I actually said but instead tried to associate me with deranged people. geez.

No, I'm not defending him. I WAS MAKING A JOKE.

Nor did I equate you specifically with it, there are several posts above that go back and forth about Bush, which I find to be a common thread in most discussions that veer even remotely close to politics these days. "My hair looks awful today... it's BUSH's FAULT!!" or "My cereal is soggy! It's BUSH's fault for lowering the standards on whole wheat extraction techniques!!" That might not seem funny to you, but I think it's pretty funny.

I wasn't making an issue out of you, per say, just responding to your direct comment about my post.

I really hope that you let this post stand rather than delete it. It seems easy for you as a moderator to reply specifically to people and have everyone read it whereas my posts sometimes arbitrarily disappear. If you delete this, while allowing your above post that serves as nothing but a direct response to me please think about that for a moment. Forums typically thrive on multiple contributions and not on being an echo chamber. I don't always agree with you, or any other poster on here, nor do I always disagree.

In this case, I was simply making a joke that you interpreted as some type of personal attack. Other than the odd bad day here and there, I try to respond to everyone with respect and moderation, even if I don't agree.

[Justadude]

Charlotte's first suburbs were built in the 1920s not the 60s and 70s. I once rented a house near Eastland mall that was built in 1959 so Charlotte had already spread out that far by that point yet downtown was still vibrant in 1959. I get this from my parents who were living in Plaza Midwood in the early 60s in a house that was built in 1945, also a suburb but they still shopped local retailers in downtown.

From what I understand the downtown retailers first encountered competition in the late '50s and started to really suffer in the '70s. Of course by the '80s they were in a state of failure. The website Groceteria, which is a labor of love if I have ever seen one, provides pretty good evidence that the real death-blows to downtown stores like Ivey's and Belk's occurred in the 1970s. I get the impression that folks living as for out as Eastover and P-M were still shopping downtown for big purchases until the opening of SouthPark (1970) and Eastland (1975) changed the dynamic and led directly to the closure of the larger downtown stores (SouthPark itself was a joint venture between the Belk and Ivey families, who both abandoned Tryon in the '80s). Of course there were smaller shopping centers for groceries in the 'burbs, but the only big-store experiences to be had in Charlotte were on Tryon St. until the opening of SouthPark.

The big question I have is: how much of the street-level vibrance of that time was attributable to the department stores? It's really hard to measure their function in the downtown economy, with so many changes having taken place at the same time.

I would hazard the theory that the department stores had roughly the same function at that time that a downtown Target would have today... but I'm not too certain of that because so many things have changed across the board.

[monsoon]

.. The website Groceteria, which is a labor of love if I have ever seen one, provides pretty good evidence that the real death-blows to downtown stores like Ivey's and Belk's occurred in the 1970s. I get the impression that folks living as for out as Eastover and P-M were still shopping downtown for big purchases until the opening of SouthPark (1970) and Eastland (1975) changed the dynamic and led directly to the closure of the larger downtown stores (SouthPark itself was a joint venture between the Belk and Ivey families, who both abandoned Tryon in the '80s). ....

This is why you can't argue your point via websites links. The first enclosed mall in Charlotte that included a big box Belk and Iveys was not South Park, but Charlottetowne Mall that opened right at the edge of Dilworth/Myers park in the 1950s. My mom and dad shopped there too when they lived in PM and I did a few times as an adult in it's last days. It remained in operation in that form until the early 1980s when Eastland pretty much killed it off. So it was not SouthPark that did this but SP along with Eastland were just follow ons to what had been started more than a decade earlier.

And if that wasn't enough there were also a lot of shoppers by that point going to the 4 K-mart stores (the Walmart of the day) that were built on Charlotte's 4 major arteries in the very early 60s.

[Justadude]

Fair enough. So the process began in the late 50s, early 60s... and then got a lot worse in the next decade or two. It still reinforces the same basic idea that suburban expansion slowly choked off the viability of downtown department stores.

[krazeeboi]

Charlotte's first suburbs were built in the 1920s not the 60s and 70s. I once rented a house near Eastland mall that was built in 1959 so Charlotte had already spread out that far by that point yet downtown was still vibrant in 1959. I get this from my parents who were living in Plaza Midwood in the early 60s in a house that was built in 1945, also a suburb but they still shopped local retailers in downtown.

I'm talking about suburbia as a phenomenon that centered around the automobile, aided by things such as the Federal Interstate Highway Act of 1956, the Federal Housing Act of 1949, the production of suburban homes overlaid on Euclidian zoning, etc., not simply as a location outside of downtown. Charlotte's earliest suburbs are suburbs only in purely geographical terms, not as it relates to the built environment. This is why center city Charlotte was still vibrant upon the advent of Dilworth, Elizabeth, etc.

[Conformity]

Have you ever been to one of those pay ponds where the proprietor guarantees that if you throw in a line you will catch something?

Monsoon said:

<<It's an established fact the big boxes killed off much of independent retail. There are retail-less downtown all over the South, including Charlotte that are testimats to this legacy.>>

It is not established fact. It is established group think. I will personally write a check to Campbell

[monsoon]

......

At no point did anyone argue that these stores make great urban places in and of themselves. Rather, if these retailers are going to have an urban presence, it is incumbent on the development community to make them be the best the possibly can be. Lowe

[Miesian Corners]

It might be nonsense but it's worth pointing out that as a developer with a vested interest in 'this' project it would be my conclusion that your statements will be tempered by this fact. In the example that you point out, the Wendover HQ, there immediate area has seen a remarkable loss of retailers, especially in the new development across the street, and I would say the area is also challenged on a number of fronts including crime even in the new apartments built around it and I would say loss of some property values. This in an area that is next door to some very expensive property in Charlotte.

There are no empty retail spaces in the developments across Wendover from the Home Depot. And they aren't new; they were built in the 1980s. Food Lion, US Post Office, Family Dollar, ABC Store, State Employees Credit Union, Mc Donald's, KFC, etc. There is an empty shell of a Taco Bell, but that stems from a poor location decision on the part of the franchise holder. As far as the state of apartment communities in the area concerned, their decline is more attributed to their poor managment, shoddy construction, who they rent to, and dare I mention the elephant in the room: Grier Heights.

[Eastman]

If anything the Home depot did and an excellent job of stabilizing that area of Wendover. The habitat for Humanities Restore plays off the Home Depot very well and is always buzzing, which brought Julie's Coffee shop, the two fast food restaurants that have been there forever get business form those going to the other two. H & S Lumber freshened up their appearance and have better selection with items you cannot get at Home Depot, and Oakhurst Hardware now is one of the best lawnmower sells and repair place in town. Not all but most of this was driven by Home Depot moving there.

[Raintree21]

It might be nonsense but it's worth pointing out that as a developer with a vested interest in 'this' project it would be my conclusion that your statements will be tempered by this fact. In the example that you point out, the Wendover HQ, there immediate area has seen a remarkable loss of retailers, especially in the new development across the street, and I would say the area is also challenged on a number of fronts including crime even in the new apartments built around it and I would say loss of some property values. This in an area that is next door to some very expensive property in Charlotte.

Lowes, HD, and the other big boxes have left a lot of carnage in their wake as they have moved across this country but most people have not been here long enough to know the history of how places have changed around their stores.

That area was already a high crime, low income area. Everyone knows that Charlotte has pockets of rich right next to poor all throughout the city so saying that HD is the reason for the immediate area's crime/low income is not true.

There are no empty retail spaces in the developments across Wendover from the Home Depot. And they aren't new; they were built in the 1980s. Food Lion, US Post Office, Family Dollar, ABC Store, State Employees Credit Union, Mc Donald's, KFC, etc. There is an empty shell of a Taco Bell, but that stems from a poor location decision on the part of the franchise holder. As far as the state of apartment communities in the area concerned, their decline is more attributed to their poor managment, shoddy construction, who they rent to, and dare I mention the elephant in the room: Grier Heights.

Don't forget the Habitat for Humanity resell store that does excellent business and took up residence in an abandoned big box location.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Lowe's 09/02/2008

Sputhborough

[Conformity]

Today, the Counselors of Real Estate (CRE) awarded The Conformity Corporation with an "Innovation Award". We share this award with LandDesign and other members of the team who made the project possible. This is the first year that the CREs have presented these awards. A total of 4 projects were selected from across North and South Carolina to receive the award.

So that was pretty cool....

More importantly though:

* 5 Guys Burgers and Fries opened today.

Also:

* Lowe's started racking their store yesterday....they are shooting, not surprisingly, to be open for business before Thanksgiving

* Noodles to open 3rd week of October

* Wine Loft opens in November

Some members on this board are involved with The Tremont, I believe. Congratulations on your recent completion of the project.

[jfuptown]

Conformity