Charlotte VS Jacksonville VS Nashville

[bobliocatt]

Here's my perspective based after a year of living in Jax. Its basically a city with two distinct sides divided by the St. Johns River. The Westside and Northside still has that old stereotypical Jax feel. However, the Southside and the Beaches (all east of the river) don't.

There is a large influx of different cultures in Jax, however unlike larger Northern cities immigrants are all intergrated within the community. Another reason for Jax's diversity is the Military. With 40,000 employees and sailors, its the largest employer in town and due to it, people of all cultures get relocated to Jax often.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Here's the numbers that really count.

[Charleston native]

Not being as enthralled with the cult of "diversity" as AFH, I have to agree with Charleston.  As a 3rd generation Jacksonville native, I also think I know more about Jacksonville than someone who lives in Phoenix.  Of course Jacksonville, as a fairly large city, has people from different regions of the country and from around the world, but the core of the city is still Southerners, both white and black.  Historically this has been true in FL as well.  I believe this is what Charleston was refering to and he is correct.  So AFH, please dont give us your liberal condescension on here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks River! B) That is exactly what I was talking about. In many cities you have small segments of other cultures of course, but I WAS referring to the core of Jax. I really believe that its Southern heritage is what makes it so appealing to me. It is like Charleston, a sister coastal city a few hours away, but bigger and more modern. And as more people move to the coast, Jax is going to become bigger and more important than other cities in the South.

[bobliocatt]

It occurs to me that using the "UA" figures to suggest how "urban" a region is both good and bad. On the one hand, it is a good measure of density within an area. But the numbers can be confusing because they rely on a "contiguous" area.

Frankly, wouldn't it better if the MSA of a city/region where made up of a collection of dense, urbanized (or ubanizing), pods each with their own uniqe characteristics, separated by rural areas but contributing to the larger whole?

In the Charlotte region, for example, the development regulations of many regional towns and cities are designed to concentrate development into core areas (surrounding future transit nodes) and strictly regulate development in environmental-sensitive areas.  The result is an increasingly segmented region, with the city of Charlotte at the core, separated by low-density areas specifically designated as "rural".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is happening in Charlotte is no different than what is happening in suburban areas across the US. Suburban new urbanist developments have been popular for years. Nevertheless, its still sprawl. Its also hard to compare metro Charlotte with Florida metros. Mainly because most Florida metros already touch each other.

Depending on how the numbers fall and what county the communities are in, they may be considered as a part of a larger metro, like Charlotte, or on the other hand, may be considered a part of a completely different metro area, despite being a bedroom community to the one directly across the county line. In Florida, you'll find several cases of this, especially in the central and southern areas of the state.

In the end urban area numbers seem to work better because they show the actual size of the central city. Everything else is pretty much just bedroom communities.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

^^ Excellent observation about "new urbanist" developments in greenfields. Some, though, when they are physically attached to an existing town center are very much the right way to go (IMHO). In any case, I'd still rather see a city grow with "pauses", or "breaks", between the center city and suburban cores. I think that, ultimately, the UA definition would fail to recognize these precisely b/c they are not contiguous...yes?

[bobliocatt]

In any case, I'd still rather see a city grow with "pauses", or "breaks", between the center city and suburban cores. I think that, ultimately, the UA definition would fail to recognize these precisely b/c they are not contiguous...yes?

Yes, it fails to recognize disattached sprawling developments because they aren't a part of the actual core city or the urban area, which is a great thing. What you're describing is hard core sprawl. I'll take a decent sized vibrant core over a smaller one with sprawling bedroom communities attached to the core by 8 lanes roads littered with Lowe's, SuperWalmarts, Home Depots and McDonald's chains anyday.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Yes, it fails to recognize disattached sprawling developments because they aren't a part of the actual core city or the urban area, which is a great thing.  What you're describing is hard core sprawl.  I'll take a decent sized vibrant core over a smaller one with sprawling bedroom communities attached to the core by 8 lanes roads littered with Lowe's, SuperWalmarts, Home Depots and McDonald's chains anyday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the truth! Thanks for helping to dissect the definition... The good thing is if, instead of "sprawling developments", you have associated cores that are also compact and dense. I definetly see this happening in Huntersville, Cornelius, and Davidson immediately north of Charlotte.

[bobliocatt]

The bad thing is the satallite cores, aren't really traditional cores. They look nice, but their residents still clog the local highways to get to Walmart and Applebees. These places also aren't very diverse and most of the time, tend to be overpriced, compared to the settings they try to re-create. I could name you another thousand things about these developments. As you can see, I'm not to fond about New Urbanism. I think the traditional gridded suburban pattern that you see in suburbs outside Detroit, Miami & LA still work better than isolated New Urbanist communities do.

[TheUrbanCore]

The bad thing is the satallite cores, aren't really traditional cores.  They look nice, but their residents still clog the local highways to get to Walmart and Applebees.  These places also aren't very diverse and most of the time, tend to be overpriced, compared to the settings they try to re-create.  I could name you another thousand things about these developments.  As you can see, I'm not to fond about New Urbanism.  I think the traditional gridded suburban pattern that you see in suburbs outside Detroit, Miami & LA still work better than isolated New Urbanist communities do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've always thought of New Urbanism as a more macro term to promote walkable neighborhoods, affordable housing, sustainability (if thats a word), not just Seaside and Celebration type stuff. Am I off base?

[monsoon]

The bad thing is the satallite cores, aren't really traditional cores.  They look nice, but their residents still clog the local highways to get to Walmart and Applebees.  These places also aren't very diverse and most of the time, tend to be overpriced, compared to the settings they try to re-create.  I could name you another thousand things about these developments.  As you can see, I'm not to fond about New Urbanism.  I think the traditional gridded suburban pattern that you see in suburbs outside Detroit, Miami & LA still work better than isolated New Urbanist communities do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually in North Mecklenburg's case this is not true. Huntersville, Cornelus, and Davidson are traditional towns and have some of the most restrictive zoning and town development policies in the South. They are all interested in not being bedroom communities of Charlotte and have attracted significant local employement including the a HQ for Rubbermaid, the HQ for Lowes Home Improvement stores, Diamler Chrysler Vans, etc.

Here is a link that shows some of the development in the area. It should also be noted the 3 towns are working to bring rail transit to the area with connections to points futher north and to downtown Charlotte.

[bobliocatt]

^No doubt, all metros have traditional towns that are eventually engulfed by the development of the central city. Winter Park, about a mile or two North of downtown Orlando, is a good example of this. In Duval County, Mayport, Jax Beach, Baldwin, Atlantic Beach and Neptune Beaches are all traditional towns that have been around nearly as long as the city of Jax. I see traditional towns and new urbanism sprawl as two different things.

[bobliocatt]

I've always thought of New Urbanism as a more macro term to promote walkable neighborhoods, affordable housing, sustainability (if thats a word), not just Seaside and Celebration type stuff. Am I off base?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what they say, but it tends not to work out that way. Most are far from affordable to the average resident. On the other hand, promoting walkable neighborhoods and sustainability, in the inner city, is nothing more than urban infill.

[monsoon]

^No doubt, all metros have traditional towns that are eventually engulfed by the development of the central city.  Winter Park, about a mile or two North of downtown Orlando, is a good example of this.  In Duval County, Mayport, Jax Beach, Baldwin, Atlantic Beach and Neptune Beaches are all traditional towns that have been around nearly as long as the city of Jax.  I see traditional towns and new urbanism sprawl as two different things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually Mecklenburg has a unique arrangement where Charlotte cannot surround these towns. The NC Legislature has approved the concept of EJTs in which the towns have exclusive rights to future annexations of an area, but more importantly, they can also control zoning in these areas before they become part of the city. As a result, sprawly development is greatly curtailed. This new law has been effect here since 1996 and has greatly reduced the effect you describe. It is truely a new tool that has been put in use here to reduce sprawl and it is working.

This map shows where Charlotte will be allowed to expand. Note the position of the other towns in the county including the northern 1/5th of the county.

[bobliocatt]

^If you think that's unique, check out Florida cities in Broward, Pinellas, Polk, Seminole, Miami-Dade, Volusia, Brevard or Orange Counties. When I get some time, I'll have to dig up a couple of municipality maps. Nevertheless, I think we're getting away from my original purpose for posting the urban area numbers, which was to show the actual size and density of each central cities actual urban core.

[monsoon]

I was referring to the 3 cities in the poll.

[TheUrbanCore]

That's what they say, but it tends not to work out that way.  Most are far from affordable to the average resident.  On the other hand, promoting walkable neighborhoods and sustainability, in the inner city, is nothing more than urban infill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then I shall be a New Infillist

[RiversideGator]

Charlotte sure has smoked Jax and Nash-vegas. I guess I should visit Charlotte one of these days. I tend to be biased against inland towns, but it looks nice in the pics.

[QueenCityBobcats]

I am probably the only person to live in all three. I like Charlotte followed closely by JAX and then Nashville. JAX and CLT are more on the upswing, but I can confidently say Charlotte will have the title as being the south's next big city. I moved from Jax to Clt when B of A bought Barnett Bank, in 1998. I enjoy Charlotte much more than I enjoyed Nashville, but I also liked Jacksonville.

[monsoon]

To be fair, there are a lot of Charlotte forumers on this site.

[sonofaque86]

I have to say Charlotte....I've heard everybody saying that Charlotte will be the next Atlanta

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Atlanta is nice but I would not want Charlotte to become the next Atlanta. I don't think most people do.

[sonofaque86]

Atlanta is nice but I would not want Charlotte to become the next Atlanta. I don't think most people do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Atlanta is too overcrowded and has the worst traffic...

[bobliocatt]

I don't think any of these cities has visions of becoming the next Atlanta. How about becoming the next Charlotte, Jacksonville and Nashville? Jacksonville, for one, will never become another Atlanta.....because its a waterfront city. That's something the ATL will never be able to claim.

[Integra294]

Their HQ used to be in Wilkesboro, NC.  They decided to go the suburban route in order to grow at their own pace (roughly 8,000 people by 2015)  They are about 1 mile north of the northern border of Mecklenburg County.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, Lowe's still employs roughly 2,000 people at their corporate locations in Wilkesboro along with the new HQ in Mooresville.

[dgreen]

JAX also got the ACC Football game over Charlotte as well.

Big things are in store for Jax.

Jax has plenty of room to grow!