Thinking about moving to Providence?

[Dan]

To me, the area around Eagle Square has already turned a corner. I feel very safe walking back from the hill to my house (alas, solo and overserved) on any given night. But I've lived in inner city neighborhoods since about 7 years ago because I like it and its what I can afford on my own. I've lived in 3 cities in RI and Providence is my favorite.

Valley/The Promenade: Atwells Ave. between Valley St. and Manton Ave. is like Detroit's 8 mile in my mind. To the north, there is a lot of investment happening and homeownership is starting to make a difference. Its not your father's lower Mt. Pleasant, I guess you could say. South of Atwells is still on the right track, but has a long way to go. [i'm in a PC kind of mood today!]

I think A/C is a must in August. I never heard of an all-electric package having an A/C exception. I was in a 600 sq. ft. 1 bedroom on Garfield Ave. in Prov. paying $650 in '02 and the landlady never said a word.

During the dog days I can't sleep without it, unless I'm passed out drunk on the roof naked with a box fan pointed at me!!

Rising Sun is gated? Not yet anyway!!!

Oh, and real estate is cooling, so I would try to invest in something. I don't mind wacking weeds and blowing snow on my own, and the 2 car garage and the private space is well worth it. I can do a load of wash at 2 am without starting a war.

Happiness is not sharing a common wall (or ceiling/floor) with anyone.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Dan

[priscilla]

Hey Dave9,

Also an incoming intern -- I'm starting categorical medicine.

I spent a good bit of time driving around on the east side, looking at places listed on craigslist, at least from the outside. I agree with what others have said that for $1400 you'll have no problem finding a very comfortable place. I can't remember if you're looking for a 1 or 2 BR, but even for a 2 BR that's within the range for the east side. I think that once you come back in June you'll be able to find a place to rent. I found driving around the city very helpful in terms of figuring out where I imagined I'd have everything I wanted (and therefore likely *not* to want to move because I'm tired of moving!)

I would add to your considerations whether you want to live around many undergraduates or not. I found some of the areas in fox point to be a little heavily populated by undergrads/early grad students -- apartments seemed slightly more run down, and in one apartment I visisted, the neighbors upstairs were blaring loud music with the windows open. I decided I was looking for more quiet environs -- a clear sign that I'm getting old!

I don't know if you've looked at the Brown off-campus listings, but that's where I found my apartment. I also saw a 1 BR on Moses Brown St listed that seemed really promising -- right in wayland square, and equidistant (basically) to RIH and Miriam. I didn't end up looking at it because I ended up signing a lease for another apartment before I saw the Moses Brown one.

So I concur that providence.craigslist.org and the brown off-campus listings are your best bet.

Also, I definitely would recommend air conditioning. I know from many years of experience that it can get really gross at night (and day) during the summer. I guess it's an individual thing, but like Dan (above), I just can't sleep if I'm too hot. I'm rarely a miserable person, rarely in a bad mood, but being too hot while trying to sleep is the best way to make me very unhappy!

PM me or email me (if you are also medicine and have access to the email addresses of the people in the intern class) if you have any comments/questions you'd like to share "off air."

Take care,

Priscilla

Edited April 19, 2006 by priscilla

[Garris]

Dave,

I too forgot if you're looking for 1 or 2 bedrooms, but condos right in Wayland Square (410 Angell, I believe) are 1 bedroom and are being renovated and advertised for 159,000 to 210,000. That, mortgage wise, should fall within your price range.

- Garris

[Garris]

I think Garris' point, and sometime frustration, is that there are not many full service neighborhoods. You have to leave most neighborhoods for some essential, be it pharmacy needs or groceries, and for many non-essentials such as movie rentals and dry-cleaning.

PVD certainly has neighborhoods, and some damn fine ones, just not many that are as all-inclusive as someone from a larger city might be expecting.

Exactly my point...

You'll find in cities like Boston... that there are areas where you could pretty much never leave a 10 block area and still have all you need

A bit off topic, but where in Boston would this be?

- Garris

[basachs]

Exactly my point...

A bit off topic, but where in Boston would this be?

- Garris

I think he should have said Boston "area". Let see. Back Bay, JP, Brighton and Allston immediately spring to mind.

Extend it to Cambridge and Central, Harvard, Porter, Davis square fall into that.

Another comment regarding Rising Sun. Between the existing communities of Eagle Square and Rising Sun and the under construction areas of The Plant and the Armory Properties development next door, Valley street will clean up nicely.

[Griswald]

I agree with some people here who say that the number of all-convenience neighborhoods is growing. I used to rent on Brook & Wickenden, and I could walk to just about everything (walked to East Side Market grocery store once, and that's the only service that isn't realistically walking distance, at least if you dont want the circulation in your fingers cut off from the grocery bags). I live in the West End now and I definitely miss the walkability of Fox Point. Although with the warmer weather, I'm sure I will be walking to Broadway and Atwells a lot more.

The Eagle square area really offers a lot, at least in terms of affordable services. I'm impressed with how much that retail area has filled out. On a side note, the Galaxie Express is a great place for eats.

On the AC topic, I used to get by on a 3rd floor apt. with a window unit in the bedroom, turned on when I got home from work. We used window fans in the living room, the kind that have exhaust & intake. They worked very well, although I spent many nights sweating bullets watching Sox games until we bought them.... Our new condo on Sycamore has central air, so that'll be a first for me.

[brick]

Just to make the point, I don't know that any of you have experienced a Chicago summer night, which is why I made the comparison. Realistically any amount of AC that gets one through a Chicago summer is more than enough to get through one in Providence, and if one rarely used AC getting through a Chicago summer, one might not need AC in Providence at all.

For my part, I use a window unit in the bedroom exclusively for purposes of sleeping - both the cooling effect and the white noise. This is a conditioned response though. I lived in the Caribbean for a year and used my AC about 3 times. I actually think the white noise is more important to me than the cooling.

[Cotuit]

Exactly my point...

A bit off topic, but where in Boston would this be?

- Garris

From personal experience, Fenway, Copley/Back Bay, and parts of Allston and Brighton. Also from personal experience, the downtown and south side of Waltham.

[runawayjim]

From personal experience, Fenway, Copley/Back Bay, and parts of Allston and Brighton. Also from personal experience, the downtown and south side of Waltham.

mass ave in arlington is the same way... restaurants, shops, and a food master that's built to the street. all are in easy walking distance. i think the only thing it lacks is a drug store, but there's a CVS a bit farther down, right next to a hollywood video. there might actually be a smaller CVS closer to the center of arlington, but i don't remember, it's been a while.

[americabizarro]

I think Garris' point, and sometime frustration, is that there are not many full service neighborhoods. You have to leave most neighborhoods for some essential, be it pharmacy needs or groceries, and for many non-essentials such as movie rentals and dry-cleaning. You'll find in cities like Boston and New York and Chicago, that there are areas where you could pretty much never leave a 10 block area and still have all you need, there aren't many (or really any) areas of Providence where that applies, no matter where you live, there is always something missing.

PVD certainly has neighborhoods, and some damn fine ones, just not many that are as all-inclusive as someone from a larger city might be expecting.

I have AC, I used it once last year.

And this brings up a whole other issue--do we really want new urbanism to work? Do we want everything within walking distance? Will we ever leave our neighborhoods? We will all become a bunch a homogenous boobs experiencing only our own culture's or our own economic bracket's food, shops, people? I think the neighborhoods the way they are are excellent--just enough to spend a Saturday walking and looking in windows, grabbing morning coffee and scones, restaurants and parks to see neighbors and friends, etc, but not everything so we're so insulated in our busy worlds that we forget we're a part of a greater culture.

[americabizarro]

as for renting, it's for those who want to settle in one place for a while or those who frankly can't afford to buy (like myself) or just don't want to deal with the responsibilities of upkeep on the house/condo.

But I would be willing to wager that you can afford more than you think you can a lot easier than you think you can. I think renting is just as bad as littering. You are not only throwing away money, but I think we all have a responsibility to our community to purchase rather than rent. Renters do not build neighborhoods. Renters do not join neighborhood associations. This begs the question--what are our responsibilities as members of a neighborhood, and do we have more responsibilities as city dwellers than as country dwellers?

[damus]

And this brings up a whole other issue--do we really want new urbanism to work? Do we want everything within walking distance? Will we ever leave our neighborhoods? We will all become a bunch a homogenous boobs experiencing only our own culture's or our own economic bracket's food, shops, people? I think the neighborhoods the way they are are excellent--just enough to spend a Saturday walking and looking in windows, grabbing morning coffee and scones, restaurants and parks to see neighbors and friends, etc, but not everything so we're so insulated in our busy worlds that we forget we're a part of a greater culture.

I dont think that they'll be any more insulated with new urbanism. I think the idea is to put essentials like grocery stores and schools within walking distance, so you don't have to drive 10 miles to the store. You'll actually might even build a sense of community by occasionally conversing with people you see on the street while at the same time cutting down on pollution and getting some light exercise in. At least if you gain that sense of familiarity with people it'll be better than a lot of what goes on today. People know their immediate neighbors if they know any of them, and they take their cars out to do everything they do. People are for the most part separated by demographics in the current system, so I don't see much of a change if people are separated the way you say they'd be. If anything, different classes will have a better chance of intermingling in an urban environment. Look at Manhattan, then look at Greenwich, CT. Greenwich is just about all white and rich, but Manhattan is full of people from all classes.

[runawayjim]

But I would be willing to wager that you can afford more than you think you can a lot easier than you think you can. I think renting is just as bad as littering. You are not only throwing away money, but I think we all have a responsibility to our community to purchase rather than rent. Renters do not build neighborhoods. Renters do not join neighborhood associations. This begs the question--what are our responsibilities as members of a neighborhood, and do we have more responsibilities as city dwellers than as country dwellers?

ummmm... that's a pretty gutsy statement saying that renters don't build neighborhoods. think about what your'e saying there. first of all, most renters live in areas that are predominately rental units (college hill, a lot of fed hill and a lot of the armory as well, nevermind most of elmhurst). granted the college kids don't do anything for neighborhoods (which is a very stereotyped blanket statement that i probably shouldn't have said). but i work for a living. i work in the neighborhood in which i live. i don't know if elmhurst has an active neighborhood association, but i'd join it if there was one (can't find any information online about it). i have no responsibility to providence to buy a house here. maybe i can afford one, but i can tell you that if my mortgage and tax payments were more than my rent, i definitely could not afford it (my rent is $700 if you were wondering). i don't think there's a house for sale anywhere within an easy commute of providence that i can afford. maybe once my loans are all paid off or when i'm part of a 2 income family (basically sometime in late 2008 when i'm married), i'll be able to afford to buy (either that or when i win the lottery). until then, i'm very content "throwing away" my money by renting. i don't have any responsibilities to care for the upkeep of the house i live in other than what i do in my apartment, which involves keeping it clean and sanitary and fixing any small problems are within my limits (if it costs more than maybe $30, it's not worth me fixing). i'll end up leaving my apartment better than it was when i moved in because i really like it. i pick up trash on my street when i see it. i keep my area clean. i shovel the sidewalk in front of my house when it snows (and a ways down the street too because my parking area is 2 lots away). i'm sure i know many more people who own homes that are just as "bad" for their communities as renters. i have no intentions of leaving. if i could afford to buy, it wouldn't be in providence, and i want to live in providence. i like the city. no, that's wrong. i love this city. i'll do what i can to stay int he city or as close to it as possible. right now that means renting. i've been in my apartment for over a year. i'll be here for at least another year (that's when my fiancee moves back from philly and we'll need a bigger place because this is just a small 1br). and then we'll stay in that apartment until we decide we have enough money to buy. until then, i'll be renting, and i'll be perfectly happy "throwing away" my money.

that being said... if you can find me a house that i can buy with no down payment and have my monthly payments be only $700 (including diving my property taxes by 12 months), by all means, let me know.

Edited April 21, 2006 by runawayjim

[americabizarro]

ummmm... that's a pretty gutsy statement saying that renters don't build neighborhoods. think about what your'e saying there. first of all, most renters live in areas that are predominately rental units (college hill, a lot of fed hill and a lot of the armory as well, nevermind most of elmhurst). granted the college kids don't do anything for neighborhoods (which is a very stereotyped blanket statement that i probably shouldn't have said). but i work for a living. i work in the neighborhood in which i live. i don't know if elmhurst has an active neighborhood association, but i'd join it if there was one (can't find any information online about it). i have no responsibility to providence to buy a house here. maybe i can afford one, but i can tell you that if my mortgage and tax payments were more than my rent, i definitely could not afford it (my rent is $700 if you were wondering). i don't think there's a house for sale anywhere within an easy commute of providence that i can afford. maybe once my loans are all paid off or when i'm part of a 2 income family (basically sometime in late 2008 when i'm married), i'll be able to afford to buy (either that or when i win the lottery). until then, i'm very content "throwing away" my money by renting. i don't have any responsibilities to care for the upkeep of the house i live in other than what i do in my apartment, which involves keeping it clean and sanitary and fixing any small problems are within my limits (if it costs more than maybe $30, it's not worth me fixing). i'll end up leaving my apartment better than it was when i moved in because i really like it. i pick up trash on my street when i see it. i keep my area clean. i shovel the sidewalk in front of my house when it snows (and a ways down the street too because my parking area is 2 lots away). i'm sure i know many more people who own homes that are just as "bad" for their communities as renters. i have no intentions of leaving. if i could afford to buy, it wouldn't be in providence, and i want to live in providence. i like the city. no, that's wrong. i love this city. i'll do what i can to stay int he city or as close to it as possible. right now that means renting. i've been in my apartment for over a year. i'll be here for at least another year (that's when my fiancee moves back from philly and we'll need a bigger place because this is just a small 1br). and then we'll stay in that apartment until we decide we have enough money to buy. until then, i'll be renting, and i'll be perfectly happy "throwing away" my money.

that being said... if you can find me a house that i can buy with no down payment and have my monthly payments be only $700 (including diving my property taxes by 12 months), by all means, let me know.

You are right, that's close to impossible to find. But I still stand by my statement that renters are not as good (as a totally general statement) for neighborhoods as owners are. And that's directed as much to the renter as it is the landlord. Neither have much of a stake in keeping up their properties, beautifying the grounds, keeping the grounds clean, watching after their neighbors, etc. You, it sounds like, are an exception to the rule. And there are some landlords out there that are an exception to the rule. And probably most people reading or writing in this forum are. These are the people that do truly care. Like you said, you love this city. And I know you can find a payments (PITI) for $950 a month with no money down. And isn't that extra $250 a month worth it? Rather than pissing it away, you're investing. Beyond what all the naysayers feel about where real estate prices have gotten to, still real estate is the best and safest investment in yourself you can ever make. As long as your smart about the puchase and the sale. Educate yourself. My parents taught me nothing about buying anything. And I didn't buy my first house until I was 32, but I wish I would have been clued in years before.

[runawayjim]

You are right, that's close to impossible to find. But I still stand by my statement that renters are not as good (as a totally general statement) for neighborhoods as owners are. And that's directed as much to the renter as it is the landlord. Neither have much of a stake in keeping up their properties, beautifying the grounds, keeping the grounds clean, watching after their neighbors, etc. You, it sounds like, are an exception to the rule. And there are some landlords out there that are an exception to the rule. And probably most people reading or writing in this forum are. These are the people that do truly care. Like you said, you love this city. And I know you can find a payments (PITI) for $950 a month with no money down. And isn't that extra $250 a month worth it? Rather than pissing it away, you're investing. Beyond what all the naysayers feel about where real estate prices have gotten to, still real estate is the best and safest investment in yourself you can ever make. As long as your smart about the puchase and the sale. Educate yourself. My parents taught me nothing about buying anything. And I didn't buy my first house until I was 32, but I wish I would have been clued in years before.

if i had an extra $250 a month, i'd buy. however, the extra $250 i have is to enjoy myself (after all, i do have a fiancee in philly... another fun city) and eat.

[americabizarro]

I dont think that they'll be any more insulated with new urbanism. I think the idea is to put essentials like grocery stores and schools within walking distance, so you don't have to drive 10 miles to the store. You'll actually might even build a sense of community by occasionally conversing with people you see on the street while at the same time cutting down on pollution and getting some light exercise in. At least if you gain that sense of familiarity with people it'll be better than a lot of what goes on today. People know their immediate neighbors if they know any of them, and they take their cars out to do everything they do. People are for the most part separated by demographics in the current system, so I don't see much of a change if people are separated the way you say they'd be. If anything, different classes will have a better chance of intermingling in an urban environment. Look at Manhattan, then look at Greenwich, CT. Greenwich is just about all white and rich, but Manhattan is full of people from all classes.

Yeah, but do we, say in the Armory District or the East Side, have a chance at becoming a NYC? I don't think it's comparing apples to apples. No, I think that's what's really attractive about Providence is that we have all these different neighborhoods--more like villages with town centers than NYC neighborhoods--that offer different things. I think the goal should be to foster and work to better create a collection of unique villages that are not exhaustive in what they have to offer, though they may have, like say upper Hope Street, everything you might need on a smaller scale.

if i had an extra $250 a month, i'd buy. however, the extra $250 i have is to enjoy myself (after all, i do have a fiancee in philly... another fun city) and eat.

get a metal detector and walk around your yard. i read the other day that 1 in a 1000 americans prior to 1950 burried cash in their backyards.

[pete11]

lots away). i'm sure i know many more people who own homes that are just as "bad" for their communities as renters. i have no intentions of leaving. if i could afford to buy, it wouldn't be in providence, and i want to live in providence. i like the city. no, that's wrong. i love this city. i'll do what i can to stay int he city or as close to it as possible. right now that means renting. i've been in my apartment for over a year. i'll be here for at least another year (that's when my fiancee moves back from philly and we'll need a bigger place because this is just a small 1br). and then we'll stay in that apartment until we decide we have enough money to buy. until then, i'll be renting, and i'll be perfectly happy "throwing away" my money.

that being said... if you can find me a house that i can buy with no down payment and have my monthly payments be only $700 (including diving my property taxes by 12 months), by all means, let me know.

Jim you do what your doing. Save the money your saving by renting, for some sort of down payment. What these financial geniuses that are telling you to take out an exotic loan with no money down are saying is that real estate only goes up. The generations before us acquired wealth in their homes, because fully amortizing loans where a forced savings account while nominalizing debt (through inflation). I really don't understand how a resident (who might leave in 3 years) asks for a rental suggestion and is responded by buy. Even if prices remain flat transaction costs could run 8%. I didn't want to post on this thread, even though it made me ill, but knowing that Jim is getting married soon and makes no pretence of who he is, should not be made to feel guilty because he rents.

Jim take a look at this site before you make a decision to buy. http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/

Edited April 21, 2006 by pete11

[americabizarro]

Jim you do what your doing. Save the money your saving by renting, for some sort of down payment. What these financial geniuses that are telling you to take out an exotic loan with no money down are saying is that real estate only goes up. The generations before us acquired wealth in their homes, because fully amortizing loans where a forced savings account while nominalizing debt (through inflation). I really don't understand how a resident (who might leave in 3 years) asks for a rental suggestion and is responded by buy. Even if prices remain flat transaction costs could run 8%. I didn't want to post on this thread, even though it made me ill, but knowing that Jim is getting married soon and makes no pretence of who he is, should not be made to feel guilty because he rents.

Jim take a look at this site before you make a decision to buy. http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/

i'm not ignorant enough (though i won't claim to be too bright either!!!) to believe that real estate does not go down, even though i personally feel this city has a bit of a bullet proof vest (or at least close to it) should some extreme downfall in the national market occur. but i'm so sick of people talking bubble this, bubble that. soon enough it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. i just truly feel, from doing research on the subject from every age bracket, most importantly old-timers who felt they bought at the top of the market when they could barely afford to, when everyone told them they were stupid, that real estate is a very safe and solid investment as long as you don't have to sell in the "down" market if and when it comes. it's the surest way to any sort of wealth for people that otherwise would not have it. but you have to get into the game to play it, otherwise you're being played by the throw-away society we live in.

BTW--transaction costs of 8%? Explain

[pete11]

i'm not ignorant enough (though i won't claim to be too bright either!!!) to believe that real estate does not go down, even though i personally feel this city has a bit of a bullet proof vest (or at least close to it) should some extreme downfall in the national market occur. but i'm so sick of people talking bubble this, bubble that. soon enough it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. i just truly feel, from doing research on the subject from every age bracket, most importantly old-timers who felt they bought at the top of the market when they could barely afford to, when everyone told them they were stupid, that real estate is a very safe and solid investment as long as you don't have to sell in the "down" market if and when it comes. it's the surest way to any sort of wealth for people that otherwise would not have it. but you have to get into the game to play it, otherwise you're being played by the throw-away society we live in.

BTW--transaction costs of 8%? Explain

6% realtor fees, attorney, inspection ,other closing costs. -- Whether Real estate goes up or down is immaterial. The PITI quoted was a negative amortizing mortgage which puts you in a negative equity position. These loans are THE reason foreclosures are skyrocketing in RI. This is a used car trick of sell the payment, to the point where the shill (ahem) customer doesn't realize the debt they've taken on.

P.S. what I said about traditional mortgages, is exactly what you said about "old-timers"

Edited April 21, 2006 by pete11

[americabizarro]

6% realtor fees, attorney, inspection ,other closing costs. -- Whether Real estate goes up or down is immaterial. The PITI quoted was a negative amortizing mortgage which puts you in a negative equity position. These loans are THE reason foreclosures are skyrocketing in RI. This is a used car trick of sell the payment, to the point where the shill (ahem) customer doesn't realize the debt they've taken on.

P.S. what I said about traditional mortgages, is exactly what you said about "old-timers"

How could real estate going up in value be immaterial to this discussion? And let's get it straight--the loan is not the reason people are going into foreclosure--it's their inability to pay for that loan, no? And since when does the buyer pay the realtor fee, which is more the norm at 5% than it is 6%. These are not leading or offensive questions. I simply want to learn and you seem to know something about financing real estate. Thanks.

[matt]

I'd agree with americabizarro in that those who own property will (generally) take a certain pride in maintaining it. If you're renting, you have no obligation (typically) to maintain the property, nor any motivation to do so; its not yours. In this respect, neighborhoods that are mostly owner occupied are often better kept.

Does this mean one should buy a house regardless of their financial situation? Absolutely not. Renting is often cheaper than buying. However, if you find you're paying more in rent than you would a mortgage, and you have some money available for a down payment, then it might be time to reevalutate your situation.

[pete11]

How could real estate going up in value be immaterial to this discussion? And let's get it straight--the loan is not the reason people are going into foreclosure--it's their inability to pay for that loan, no? And since when does the buyer pay the realtor fee, which is more the norm at 5% than it is 6%. These are not leading or offensive questions. I simply want to learn and you seem to know something about financing real estate. Thanks.

No, by all means. I'm not picking on you. Most people don't even know how an I/O loan amortizes, never mind an option arm. Suffice it to say, payments spike higher than they realize. Matt is right about home ownership, it does help a community, but when people are stretching to own, and the barrier (read down payments) is taken down people will spend what they've "qualified" for. Sorry for taking this thread off topic.

As for the transaction costs you not only have realtor fees, but home inspection, closing costs on the loan, appraisals, attorney fees. Just because some of these are wrapped in the purchase price, doesn't mean you don't pay them. I only responded because I would hate a young man who is currently renting comfortably,to tie up his finances for 10-15 years without hearing both sides of the equation.

Edited April 21, 2006 by pete11

[jencoleslaw]

folks who are interested in their neighborhood and engaged add to it, whether they are tenants or homeowners. Those of us in federal hill can certainly attest to the vast numbers of owner occupied buildings clad in vinyl and completely paved over, and yet the house i live in (as a tenant) boasts one of the lovliest gardens in the entire west side--all designed, created and maintained by the downstairs tenant. There is currently only one homeowner working in our community garden--everyone else is a tenant. In the past it has been tenants and a few homeowners (when i was one) who organized and participated in tree plantings and neighborhood clean ups and across providence, as i'm planting trees there are more and more long-term tenants getting involved with tree plantings and beautification efforts.

i think in this climate of it being a seller's market, those who can't currently afford to buy a house can and do make a like investment in their neighborhoods as tenants.

ymmv.

[runawayjim]

folks who are interested in their neighborhood and engaged add to it, whether they are tenants or homeowners. Those of us in federal hill can certainly attest to the vast numbers of owner occupied buildings clad in vinyl and completely paved over, and yet the house i live in (as a tenant) boasts one of the lovliest gardens in the entire west side--all designed, created and maintained by the downstairs tenant. There is currently only one homeowner working in our community garden--everyone else is a tenant. In the past it has been tenants and a few homeowners (when i was one) who organized and participated in tree plantings and neighborhood clean ups and across providence, as i'm planting trees there are more and more long-term tenants getting involved with tree plantings and beautification efforts.

i think in this climate of it being a seller's market, those who can't currently afford to buy a house can and do make a like investment in their neighborhoods as tenants.

ymmv.

would the downstairs tenant have a certain liking for a cabbage and vinegar side dish?

[americabizarro]

folks who are interested in their neighborhood and engaged add to it, whether they are tenants or homeowners. Those of us in federal hill can certainly attest to the vast numbers of owner occupied buildings clad in vinyl and completely paved over, and yet the house i live in (as a tenant) boasts one of the lovliest gardens in the entire west side--all designed, created and maintained by the downstairs tenant. There is currently only one homeowner working in our community garden--everyone else is a tenant. In the past it has been tenants and a few homeowners (when i was one) who organized and participated in tree plantings and neighborhood clean ups and across providence, as i'm planting trees there are more and more long-term tenants getting involved with tree plantings and beautification efforts.

i think in this climate of it being a seller's market, those who can't currently afford to buy a house can and do make a like investment in their neighborhoods as tenants.

ymmv.

while i still think on average that owner occupants have a greater sense of neighborhood than landlords and renters, i do hear you and understand. that's all great to hear. i wish tenants had a greater stake in their neighborhoods. i wish landlords would incentivize them to in some way; i wish tenants would trade work cleaning a property for a discount on the rent. i wish more renters were like your gardening downstairs tenant. i wish we could all work to live better together and for the growth of our neighborhoods.