Iroquois School Reuse by GRCS (former Ottawa Hills High School)

[suydam]

Hooray!!!!

Hooray!!!!

Call the press. They are going to LEED certify.

That makes it all better. Now their archaic practices can be labeled sustainable.... complete with the plaque. Oh, and they are going to reduce the heat islands too!! We are witnessing cutting edge mavericks, some real out of the box thinkers here.

And yes, Gorath, LEED ratings are a joke, especially when applied in a vacuum.

As far as what does an urban school look like? As compared to a suburban school? It doesn't have anything to do with street level retail or the age of the building.

You can re-read this post in regards to the typological discussions. The historic schools followed a pattern for civic buildings that had been established over time. These new schools follow a pattern of something else: The first iteration looked like a factory or a prison (as most suburban schools seem to) and this new design simply makes the school look more like a house, which is exactly the kind of BS they build out on the beltline - making it "blend in" to preserve rural character.

The other thing to keep in mind is the quality of the workmanship - the architectural detailing and construction craft. There is absolutely no way that this school will be built as well as the one it is replacing, no matter how many green gizmos and gadgets that they install in it. I am 100% convinced of that. The materials will be poorer. The detailing will we poorer. The actual execution will be worse.

In other words, the original Iroquois was designed and built to last a century (or more) and did (or could have).

This one will be designed and built like a strip mall or tract house...and will last as long.

If you do not believe me, go take a stroll by the POS that replaced Henry School on Logan. I just walked around it last week and really looked closely at the detail and the quality of construction. The brickwork alone on that building looks like it was done by Curious George and not a skilled mason. Go take a look. How old is it? Look at how bad it has held up, after what...4 years!! This is a suburban school, plopped into an urban context. It will be the same case in Ottawa Hills.

I'm still not clear on the difference between a suburban school and an urban school based on your post:

• The Henry School is suburban because they used bad brickwork and materials? I'm not sure cities or suburbs have good or bad construction by default. There's great construction in the burbs (in terms of brickwork and materials) and there are horrible city schools (apparently) built by GRPS right in the middle of the city (again, using your example... I have no basis for an opinion).
  
• New schools follow factory/prison patterns.... but is that suburban/urban or just new/old?
  

I read most of your post as an anti-new-school-construction (which is fine... I don't necessarily disagree with your points about quality and placement). I don't read anything in your post that suggests a school built in Forest Hills is any worse in terms of construction/materials/layout than a new school built by GRPS within city limits.

[jas49503]

typologically this school looks like a school. I showed it to my wife who instantly identified it as such. it didn't occur to her that it could have been a factory or a prison. Things change over time, including schools. you wouldn't expect a school built today to look like one from a hundred years ago. also, as mentioned earlier, construction quality has nothing to do with urban/surburban or new/old. I've seen plenty of old buildings built poorly just like there are new buildings built well. It is very design dependent.

on another point, I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss leed certification. It may not be perfect, but it is better than nothing at all. at least it shows that the building has been independently verified as having some green features rather than someone just claiming that they built green because they threw in a rain barrel and some bike racks. Just like a model T ford isn't the ideal car, LEED is early in it's life and will undergo many modifications before it's ideal. The old saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water fits perfectly. You need to maintain perspective on what it is, it's limitations and strengths before discarding it as rubbish.

[mejane]

Don't even get me started on what is going to happen to the monstrosity that is the soon to be former FIA building on the corner of Madison and Franklin.

The current FIA building was originally Central Christian High School, in existence before East Christian High School was built on Plymouth Road. The two schools consolidated in 1973 as Grand Rapids Christian High and all upper classmen spent that school year in the Central Christian building while East was renovated. I know, I was there, and I LOVED that building, but then I've always had an appreciation and respect for old things. It makes me a bit sick to know the old Ottawa Hills building is coming down in favor of what ultimately looks like plastic.

[Mark Miller]

typologically this school looks like a school. I showed it to my wife who instantly identified it as such. it didn't occur to her that it could have been a factory or a prison. Things change over time, including schools. you wouldn't expect a school built today to look like one from a hundred years ago. also, as mentioned earlier, construction quality has nothing to do with urban/surburban or new/old. I've seen plenty of old buildings built poorly just like there are new buildings built well. It is very design dependent.

on another point, I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss leed certification. It may not be perfect, but it is better than nothing at all. at least it shows that the building has been independently verified as having some green features rather than someone just claiming that they built green because they threw in a rain barrel and some bike racks. Just like a model T ford isn't the ideal car, LEED is early in it's life and will undergo many modifications before it's ideal. The old saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water fits perfectly. You need to maintain perspective on what it is, it's limitations and strengths before discarding it as rubbish.

LEED certification is fine. It is a good thing, but it needs to be scrutinized within a larger context. For instance, in this case, we are tearing down an existing building, with a ton of embedded energy and materials which can not be replaced (old growth wood flooring, historic brick, etc) and building a new building. Is that sustainable practice? I say no.

When a building gets built in a cornfield, 25 miles from the city core, but it gets LEED certification, is that really sustainable? I say no.

Certainly many within the USGBC feel the same way, as LEED-ND was established to begin to address (at the very least) this location issue. To get all warm and fuzzy because someone certifies a building LEED means nothing and this certification does very little from a sustainable standpoint - a big picture sustainable standpoint, a lasting sustainable standpoint.

An example of the proper way to deal with LEED - a more sustainable approach - is ICCF's building at 920 Cherry or the Center of the Universe Building on Lake Drive.

As far as the urban-suburban school issue, I have little time to delve into this right now. But suydam hits it on the head, and maybe my point as drifted a bit.

"I read most of your post as an anti-new-school-construction (which is fine... I don't necessarily disagree with your points about quality and placement). I don't read anything in your post that suggests a school built in Forest Hills is any worse in terms of construction/materials/layout than a new school built by GRPS within city limits."

The new schools built in the city are no different than those built in Forest Hills. That is the problem. If you look at the loss of place in the suburbs, it is directly related to patterns of development, the loss of architectural typology, and spatial relations. This is true whether you are building a school, an office, a house or a movie theater.

This development pattern is why the suburbs are what they are and the unfortunate thing is this same pattern gets applied to a city fabric - as in the case of these schools. It is a cancer within the urban fabric. Taken farther, the conventional suburban growth patterns are actually a cancer within a rural context as well - there is no place that the conventional suburban growth pattern is appropriate.

So I do not have a good example of a proper urban school - except those historic examples that have not yet been removed. I guess that is primarily because we don't build them anymore. Maybe when I have more time I will find one.

As far as the example of your wife reacting to this as a school. We have been conditioned to believe this sort of thing because our built environment is so atrocious.

That said, is the revised proposal better than the previous proposal? Yes, I would say that it is. But the practices we are employing are not acceptable. And the loss of these existing structures (and the ultimate replacement of them) is not acceptable - whether it is veiled in LEED certification or not.

[Ted]

LEED certification is fine. It is a good thing, but it needs to be scrutinized within a larger context. For instance, in this case, we are tearing down an existing building, with a ton of embedded energy and materials which can not be replaced (old growth wood flooring, historic brick, etc) and building a new building. Is that sustainable practice? I say no.

When a building gets built in a cornfield, 25 miles from the city core, but it gets LEED certification, is that really sustainable? I say no.

Certainly many within the USGBC feel the same way, as LEED-ND was established to begin to address (at the very least) this location issue. To get all warm and fuzzy because someone certifies a building LEED means nothing and this certification does very little from a sustainable standpoint - a big picture sustainable standpoint, a lasting sustainable standpoint.

An example of the proper way to deal with LEED - a more sustainable approach - is ICCF's building at 920 Cherry or the Center of the Universe Building on Lake Drive.

As far as the urban-suburban school issue, I have little time to delve into this right now. But suydam hits it on the head, and maybe my point as drifted a bit.

"I read most of your post as an anti-new-school-construction (which is fine... I don't necessarily disagree with your points about quality and placement). I don't read anything in your post that suggests a school built in Forest Hills is any worse in terms of construction/materials/layout than a new school built by GRPS within city limits."

The new schools built in the city are no different than those built in Forest Hills. That is the problem. If you look at the loss of place in the suburbs, it is directly related to patterns of development, the loss of architectural typology, and spatial relations. This is true whether you are building a school, an office, a house or a movie theater.

This development pattern is why the suburbs are what they are and the unfortunate thing is this same pattern gets applied to a city fabric - as in the case of these schools. It is a cancer within the urban fabric. Taken farther, the conventional suburban growth patterns are actually a cancer within a rural context as well - there is no place that the conventional suburban growth pattern is appropriate.

So I do not have a good example of a proper urban school - except those historic examples that have not yet been removed. I guess that is primarily because we don't build them anymore. Maybe when I have more time I will find one.

As far as the example of your wife reacting to this as a school. We have been conditioned to believe this sort of thing because our built environment is so atrocious.

That said, is the revised proposal better than the previous proposal? Yes, I would say that it is. But the practices we are employing are not acceptable. And the loss of these existing structures (and the ultimate replacement of them) is not acceptable - whether it is veiled in LEED certification or not.

+1

[fotoman311]

So I do not have a good example of a proper urban school - except those historic examples that have not yet been removed. I guess that is primarily because we don't build them anymore. Maybe when I have more time I will find one.

Please go into this more when you have a chance, because I'm with Suydam and I just don't understand what makes a proper urban school?

So all schools have to be made of brick and be generally box shaped with 3-4 stories and that makes them effective schools?

It's probably just that I am too ignorant of architectural styles and what not. I'm going to miss the Iroquois school.

We're going to ride by it on the first PedalGR ride on April 29th. http://www.pedalgr.com/2009/04/15/42909-pedalgr-is-back/

[Allison Slater]

Unfortunately I'll be taking my English final on the first PedalGR ride of the year. =[

[fotoman311]

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...e_original.html

The countdown continues. Watch for the "obituary" on Sunday.

[joshleo]

glad they are going to try to re-use some of those great architectural elements!

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...s_high_wil.html

though I am a little sad I couldn't snag one for myself

[GRGridGirl]

I'm glad to see the reuse of the mosaic fish pond from the kindergarten room. I went to Ottawa from pre-school thru 3rd grade and I cannot believe the neighborhood is supporting the design for a new school.

It'll be a sad day when they demolish this beautiful civic structure...

[wolverine]

I think the design looks pretty similar to how it looked before, except with a few design variations like sloped roofs, etc.. The impressive part about that pdf is that they are now going for LEED Certification, including eliminating the extra parking they were seeking, adding green roofs, and other features like rain gardens and more greenspace. That's a big switch.

It also looks like they are incorporating part of the architecture of Iroquois on the Fisk St side.

C'mon GrDad, that's an insult to good architecture. I would not try to justify it on these grounds. That's a risky territory in the design profession that many would disagree with. I'd rather see the school saved or converted or something...

[GRDadof3]

C'mon GrDad, that's an insult to good architecture. I would not try to justify it on these grounds. That's a risky territory in the design profession that many would disagree with. I'd rather see the school saved or converted or something...

So would I rather see the existing school reused, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen. Personally, I liked the first iteration they came out with for the new school. The sloped roofs don't do a thing for me, and look more like the charter schools around here.

[D-Man_GR]

I don't know how many of you were able to come to the open house last week, but I did. I'm a GRCS parent who's youngest will JUST miss out on being able to attend the new elementary. However, I'm still very much interested in the viability of the City's Christian schools.

When I heard GRCS bought the property, I naturally assumed they'd reuse at least a portion of the existing building. The total square footage is more than the combined square footages of the three elementary buildings being consolidated - and two of those buildings were more than half empty! So, even if the plan were to reuse the building, some of it would have been demolished anyway.

Never having been inside the building, I naturally assumed the inside would resemble the outside in terms of its "special features." I had heard stories about the "fabulous auditorium" and other "irreplacable" items which seemed to lend some credibility to its possible salvation.

However, I was completely underwhelmed by what I saw in my hour and a half personal tour. The entire building looks tired and well used. Hallways have high ceilings, but no "do-dads" or special features. Classrooms had all been "modernized", so very little old wood or cabinetry still exists. And the auditorium? Not an embellishment to be found. The only valuable items are the theatre chairs themselves, and then only as nostalgic pieces.

My entire mindset changed after taking the tour. This building, though having "fancy" items on the outside - many of which will be saved and incorporated into the new building - just seemed to lack any "specialness" on the inside. As much as I'm normally a historical preservationist, in this case I say GRCS is doing the right thing by tearing it down.

[amylynne]

My entire mindset changed after taking the tour. This building, though having "fancy" items on the outside - many of which will be saved and incorporated into the new building - just seemed to lack any "specialness" on the inside. As much as I'm normally a historical preservationist, in this case I say GRCS is doing the right thing by tearing it down.

I also made it out for the tour. I was amazed by how many people were there.

I have to admit that I was also underwhelmed. I love the outside of the school and was expecting more from the inside. There didn't seem to be much to save inside. The bathrooms and locker rooms were by far the most interesting part of the tour, followed closely by the "fish pond" and fireplace that are being salvaged. There were certainly a few other bright spots, but for the most part it was a tired old building that looked like it needed to be gutted. Sure it would be wonderful if someone could do that, but I'm sure the chances of anyone ever being able to make that happen are/were slim to none.

[wolverine]

So would I rather see the existing school reused, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen. Personally, I liked the first iteration they came out with for the new school. The sloped roofs don't do a thing for me, and look more like the charter schools around here.

Okay, now I understand. I generally think we agree on most things when it comes to preservation, so I was a bit surprised that's all. I agree that reuse is unlikely, I just wish that replacement was something the better.

[GRGridGirl]

I've been watching the demo for the past couple of weeks and I have to say its very sad watching these beautiful buildings get knocked down.

Oh, I just received this email:

"It

[gvsusean]

I've been watching the demo for the past couple of weeks and I have to say its very sad watching these beautiful buildings get knocked down.

Oh, I just received this email:

"It

[joshleo]

What dicks, thanks for not preserving our history GRCS

Yeah! I would rather see the building sit there vacant so we can admire it's architectural significance instead of it becoming a vibrant new school located in the middle of a great neighborhood. GRCS go build your schools on the beltline or 44th street with the rest of the suburbanites! here in Ottawa Hills we want our buildings historical! Whether or not it's vacant and deteriorating!

*extreme sarcasm*

[gvsusean]

Yeah! I would rather see the building sit there vacant so we can admire it's architectural significance instead of it becoming a vibrant new school located in the middle of a great neighborhood. GRCS go build your schools on the beltline or 44th street with the rest of the suburbanites! here in Ottawa Hills we want our buildings historical! Whether or not it's vacant and deteriorating!

*extreme sarcasm*

Its that kind of thinking that got us through urban renewal...

[EastownLeo]

Its that kind of thinking that got us through urban renewal...

If you have been in that building, I would find it hard see how you could see it being re-used.

The layout would be a nightmare for a modern school at this point. The facilities and structures were added and added and in some parts seemed dangerous.

While I will support preservation in many, many situations. This one was too far gone.

[fotoman311]

I've been watching the demo for the past couple of weeks and I have to say its very sad watching these beautiful buildings get knocked down.

Oh, I just received this email:

"It's almost time to pick up the bricks!

The demolition of the Iroquois Building has been going on for a few weeks. You informed the Grand Rapids Christian Schools of your interest in obtaining a brick(s). The brick(s) can be picked up at the Iroquois construction site on the following days between 2:00 and 4:30 p.m.

June 1, 2, 3, 4

June 8, 9, 10, 11

June 15, 16, 17, 18

Thanks for your interest is preserving a little piece of history."

Has anyone gone over there to pick up bricks? Are they free? What is the limit you can salvage? We recently came up with the idea of using some of them for edging in our garden in front of the house, but I don't know if they will let us have that many.

[joeDowntown]

I went to Pitsch's Wrecking today and took a few snaps of what's left of the old Ottawa Hills High School. You can get some pretty cool pieces from $25-$100.

Joe

[Allison Slater]

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=129443&catid=14

There's an open tour of the new building tonight and they say they've reused several pieces of the building all throughout.

[GRDadof3]

Interesting that this was bumped. I went by the new school just the other day, and I have to say it looks pretty nice; way better than the renderings. And the use of different colored brick and archways like the old school are a nice nod to the old school.

[jwazzz]

A friend of mine lives on Fisk which is at the south end of the school property and we've watched the new building take shape. General consensus in the neighborhood is very positive and I personally am delighted with the way it turned out. The size of the building seems to be a much better fit for the Ottawa Hills neighborhood - this project is a winner in my book.