Waterside District

[usermel]

Our area suffers from a lack of leadership and the leaders we have don't seem to care about the concerns nor the great ideas of how to improve the area! We can support a major eatery in our metro/Waterside(Norfolk) and we have a few in other parts of the area (Ruth's Chris/VA Beach and Kincaids/Norfolk to name a couple) already! The problem we all seem to touch on is the city leaders and council members! Politics is a under the table BUSINESS and thats the problem. To many have there hands out and deals cant get done!!

Been to Baltimore's harbor area and true ours looks better! They still have more activity because the city has a pulse and a identity! We in Norfolk need a BIG CITY mayor from another city to come in and lead Norfolk. We can't depend on locals(unless they are young like the younger people I hear on this site, very intelligent young generation and underrated) to lead us anymore because to date it hasn't worked as much as it should have! Mayor Fraim is a good man in my opinion and deserves some credit for his effort. That said, he still is a good old boy from here who doesn't have his hand on the pulse of what is needed here moving forward. And the idea for waterside to have teen parties will lead to the same issues as before that caused the temporary closings. Not because of the poor(blaming the poor is discrimination by the way), but because no matter poor or middle class or rich we all act like fools when in environments that lend themselves to improper actions.

The idea for the parties for teens is just bad, it isn't about social class at all. Most that fight in clubs etc. aren't the poor, there the drunk and those who feel entitled and fools. Race nor economic standing is the reason why! L.G.N.M

Edited September 25, 2009 by usermel

[urbanlife]

Our area suffers from a lack of leadership and the leaders we have don't seem to care about the concerns nor the great ideas of how to improve the area! We can support a major eatery in our metro/Waterside(Norfolk) and we have a few in other parts of the area (Ruth's Chris/VA Beach and Kincaids/Norfolk to name a couple) already! The problem we all seem to touch on is the city leaders and council members! Politics is a under the table BUSINESS and thats the problem. To many have there hands out and deals cant get done!!

Been to Baltimore's harbor area and true ours looks better! They still have more activity because the city has a pulse and a identity! We in Norfolk need a BIG CITY mayor from another city to come in and lead Norfolk. We can't depend on locals(unless they are young like the younger people I hear on this site, very intelligent young generation and underrated) to lead us anymore because to date it hasn't worked as much as it should have! Mayor Fraim is a good man in my opinion and deserves some credit for his effort. That said, he still is a good old boy from here who doesn't have his hand on the pulse of what is needed here moving forward. And the idea for waterside to have teen parties will lead to the same issues as before that caused the temporary closings. Not because of the poor(blaming the poor is discrimination by the way), but because no matter poor or middle class or rich we all act like fools when in environments that lend themselves to improper actions.

The idea for the parties for teens is just bad, it isn't about social class at all. Most that fight in clubs etc. aren't the poor, there the drunk and those who feel entitled and fools. Race nor economic standing is the reason why! L.G.N.M

Well local politics doesnt work that way, a mayor from a big city doesnt just move over to another city to become mayor of that one...granted it is possible but very unlikely. What Norfolk is in need of is new, younger politicians. In Portland that was a move that happened in the city council back in the 70s, the city elected the youngest council and mayor that it had ever had...the age of the council was in their mid 30's. This group of people went on to push for the removal of an interstate along the waterfront and with the help of the Governor turned the area into a park for the city...this council also laid the ground work for the light rail system Portland has today....and this is just two of the many improvements that council did for the city.

While people like Mayor Fraim have been great for Norfolk, it is always important to look for new and younger leadership to provide a different outlook for the city and give the city a chance to open up new chances for improvement.

Edited September 26, 2009 by urbanlife

[Sky06]

There are some good points here. And although an ESPNZone or the like might be a name attraction, just having such a place isn't the whole answer. It's not just about what goes in there. It's just as much how the place feels, is accessed, and contributes to DT. There's already Jillians to watch sports, play games, eat, drink, people watch. You've got Hooters to watch games and girls. Plenty of national chains with food and beverages. In fact, Waterside downstairs used to have a big bar right in the middle of the floor (where the escalator to Jillians now is), where you could sit, have a microbrew, and watch your favorite game on cable. The problem is that at least whenever I went there, I was the only person there. Not matter what the place had, people had no interest in going to Waterside. Was it because it was in DT Norfolk? Too hard to find parking? Better places to go closer to home? Who knows. But several things are clear.

1. Whatever this place is, it needs to be a public space. Condos and office buildings will do nothing to attract visitors or blend in with TPP.

2. Whatever goes here, the building needs to be vastly cleaned, modernized, and brightened. It needs to be a welcoming place, no matter whether you're talking hooters or hot dogs.

3. It needs to be better connected to the park and where possible to the rest of downtown. There needs to be a natural connection from the park to the marketplace with doors, patios, and windows open to the outside spaces. For the other, maybe the Net needs to stop at the front door. Maybe a redesigned intersection is needed between the garage and Townebank. Maybe the garage should be rebuilt altogether and walkways and escalators leading from DT streets to a "North" building that crosses Waterside to the "south" building.

I'm absolutely opposed to teen dancehalls, community rec centers, etc. But the answer isn't just what occupies the space. It's about how this place fits into DT and how we can get people to want to spend their Friday nights there.

P.S., I'm not convinced that having "new and younger leadership" automatically equates to individuals who would agree with the posts on this site. Except in a few cases, when I think "young," I think "personally ambitious," "not committed to the area," and "not concerned with the community in the long run." Maybe I'm biased, but I just don't automatically see people who are concerned with design, with historic preservation, or even with building DT into a world-class area. Would a younger person have fought for light rail? Or would they have focused on something less important? Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Sky06

[urbanlife]

There are some good points here. And although an ESPNZone or the like might be a name attraction, just having such a place isn't the whole answer. It's not just about what goes in there. It's just as much how the place feels, is accessed, and contributes to DT. There's already Jillians to watch sports, play games, eat, drink, people watch. You've got Hooters to watch games and girls. Plenty of national chains with food and beverages. In fact, Waterside downstairs used to have a big bar right in the middle of the floor (where the escalator to Jillians now is), where you could sit, have a microbrew, and watch your favorite game on cable. The problem is that at least whenever I went there, I was the only person there. Not matter what the place had, people had no interest in going to Waterside. Was it because it was in DT Norfolk? Too hard to find parking? Better places to go closer to home? Who knows. But several things are clear.

1. Whatever this place is, it needs to be a public space. Condos and office buildings will do nothing to attract visitors or blend in with TPP.

2. Whatever goes here, the building needs to be vastly cleaned, modernized, and brightened. It needs to be a welcoming place, no matter whether you're talking hooters or hot dogs.

3. It needs to be better connected to the park and where possible to the rest of downtown. There needs to be a natural connection from the park to the marketplace with doors, patios, and windows open to the outside spaces. For the other, maybe the Net needs to stop at the front door. Maybe a redesigned intersection is needed between the garage and Townebank. Maybe the garage should be rebuilt altogether and walkways and escalators leading from DT streets to a "North" building that crosses Waterside to the "south" building.

I'm absolutely opposed to teen dancehalls, community rec centers, etc. But the answer isn't just what occupies the space. It's about how this place fits into DT and how we can get people to want to spend their Friday nights there.

P.S., I'm not convinced that having "new and younger leadership" automatically equates to individuals who would agree with the posts on this site. Except in a few cases, when I think "young," I think "personally ambitious," "not committed to the area," and "not concerned with the community in the long run." Maybe I'm biased, but I just don't automatically see people who are concerned with design, with historic preservation, or even with building DT into a world-class area. Would a younger person have fought for light rail? Or would they have focused on something less important? Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Waterside Marketplace doesnt need to be condos or office buildings...there is already a collection of office buildings, hotels, and condos (technically speaking...though no condo towers within a couple blocks of the marketplace.) Battery Park City in nyc is a big place that consumes probably the same amount of land that downtown Norfolk takes up.

The answer to what would make Waterside Marketplace better is actually pretty simple, focus on the locals that live near by, design it to cater to their needs. Norfolk is no where near being in line to become a world class city...it has a long way to go which would require a restructuring of its entire city before it would be called world class...but then again, that is just a non important title when one is trying to make a city better.

So I ask, what do people living in West Freemason, the people who live in Ghent, and the people who live in the other near by neighborhoods need the marketplace to be for them? This would include the future residents of SPQ as well. The issue is not how do we get people from VB or Chesapeake to come to Waterside...it is how does the city get locals to come to it....people in VB and Chesapeake are not going to visit this area much, most of them are suburban people that naturally fear downtowns...it is what it is...but the city can still create a place for people who crave a more urban lifestyle, thus it should cater to those people.

I really should take some time to put into visual detail on what I am talking about when it comes to what the city should do...I do have plenty of free time this winter anyway.

As for younger minded politicians...I would classify as that type of people, I am 31 yrs old and have a much different outlook on how a city should function that someone who is much older and has been around in politics during the downturn in urban cities. By younger, I refer more to those who are much more ambitious and willing to take on new things that other would not take on...in Portland's case, it was removing a waterfront freeway and installing LRT in the 70s....that was the era of the freeway, no one was removing freeways then, cities only wanted to add more freeways then.

Norfolk is in need of people who want to rejuvenate the neighborhoods of the city. Focus on how to reconnect them together. Figuring out how to make the city fire on all cylinders...that kind of thinking is what is needed right now for the city....though I am not saying any younger minded person will do, it is important for those people to make the effort to run for city council and such to begin to push it in a more progressive direction, but with that said, the current council has been doing a good job keeping the city growing...which is the most important thing for any city is to keep growing, even if it is just small growth...but from what I have seen on this site since I have moved away, the city has grown alot and for the better.

[varider]

Drop this on Waterside and call it a day.

http://www.epicentrenc.com/index.php

[urbanlife]

Drop this on Waterside and call it a day.

http://www.epicentrenc.com/index.php

Funny you should point this project out...this is exactly what VB should construct at their town center light rail stop where the Circuit City store use to be....I wonder if VB knows about this project because it would be perfect for them.

[varider]

Funny you should point this project out...this is exactly what VB should construct at their town center light rail stop where the Circuit City store use to be....I wonder if VB knows about this project because it would be perfect for them.

That'd be cool. Maybe even have the station inside of the complex.

[mikeas]

I was inside Waterside today. They took out nearly all of the food places and opened up the back to the water. Real nice views now but no tenants!

I think something that would help would be to turn the Marina into a full time Marina, expand it, plus have a free or very cheap short term boat parking. Full time Marinas are lively places, lots of people live on their boats.

BTW. There are some mega-yachts docked downtown right now. There is a good sized one from Georgetown next to the Wisconsin and one with 3 dinghys and a helicopter next to the Spirit of Norfolk.

[urbanlife]

That'd be cool. Maybe even have the station inside of the complex.

that would make sense to do it that way, turn it into an entire block project.

I have a request, anyone wish to take their camera to Waterside Marketplace and do some heavy photographing of the building and the area around it...I am curious what the place looks like right now...from the descriptions it always sounds like a building that is two steps away from being condemned.

[Padman]

Younger leadership may or may not be helpful, youthful energy definitely would be helpful. Mason Andrews was a dynamo, physically nothing youthful about him though. I think Norfolk has lately just fooled around trying to be all things to all people. They've got something like 75 neighborhood plans sitting on shelves, and they don't have their priorities straight.

An idea on Charlotte--maybe a crazy one, maybe not. I noticed in the late 60s-early seventies that Charlotte was just blooming all over with young women (many of them college students--not just pretty). Charlotte's economy exploded in the 80s, when banks merged and literally rebuilt downtown Charlotte. This was the period in which women participated more fully in the labor force and two earner households became more common. I think that financial deregulation was only one factor in Charlotte's rebirth, although it was a big one.

How can we better take advantage of our demographic and economic characteristics? I'm guessing that there may be a large number of ex-military retirees in the labor market over the next decade. How well can our universities help them, especially at the post graduate level?

[Telmnstr]

that would make sense to do it that way, turn it into an entire block project.

I have a request, anyone wish to take their camera to Waterside Marketplace and do some heavy photographing of the building and the area around it...I am curious what the place looks like right now...from the descriptions it always sounds like a building that is two steps away from being condemned.

I'll try to get over there this week.

[Telmnstr]

I took a few pictures at waterside today. I'll post them on flickr this weekend.

They uh, changed stuff pretty heavily.

The food court is much less of a food court now. The block of food places that used to include Taco Mama, Ben & Jerrys and the Italian place are all gone. Not only are the food places gone, but so is the physical structure. There are table and chairs, and some electrovoice speakers mounted around. White tile floor. There is a door now going outside from there, and some tables out front. This is up on the windows looking outside.

Also, on the opposite side, they also removed some of the food vendors and you can see straight out to the boats. There are more tables there as well.

It's definitely brighter. You can't really not see daylight.

The mongolian joint is still the bomb though :-)

As long as that stays Waterside's alright.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Telmnstr

[Telmnstr]

Waterside pics from last Friday:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ethanotoole/s...57622396425365/

[ronsmytheiii]

Someone is going to pat their own back here:

A local developer wants to transform Waterside into a bustling farmer s market filled with local produce and seafood, arts and crafts dealers and a high-end seafood restaurant. "We've seen it work in other cities," said Michael Divaris, president of Divaris Real Estate, the Virginia Beach company that helped develop Town Center. "It's something different. We were thinking out of the box."

City leaders, however, say they're not ready yet to decide the facility's future. They say they are grateful for Divaris' unsolicited proposal, but they need at least six more months before they begin serious discussions about the venue with anyone.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/farmers-ma...folks-waterside

Edited October 6, 2009 by ronsmytheiii

[urbanlife]

They need six months before they begin to decide the future of Waterside?? What the hell are they going to do with their six months of free time? Check their facebook accounts? play some bad ass games of scrabble? Watch the Redskins play every sunday? Take that very long backpack tour of Europe they have been thinking about? Seriously, they act like this is no big deal, its just the city's waterfront. One would think now would be the time for talking about this and wanting to construct a future for this area and when you have a developer like Divaris interested, it would make sense to want to actually talk with him more about this.

Personally I think Divaris is spot on for this. A Seafood/Farmers Market thing would make sense being on the water and with the Atlantic within reach...one would think the best place for Seafood in Norfolk should be at Waterside....but if the city wishes to drag their asses over something like this, I guess they can....this would be a great time to look for politicians that actually want to do things rather than take their sweet time waiting to begin researching what to do.

Thanks for the pictures Telmnstr, I can see why the mall is so dead...the interior design of the place now just looks horrible...I dont remember it looking that bad in the 80s and early 90s....I could of swore it was much more open within with a large atrium in the center of the building. The photos make it look like it is as bad as the Pembroke Mall (from what I can remember about that mall.)

Edited October 6, 2009 by urbanlife

[varider]

I think the city should accept Divaris' proposal.

[urbanfan]

They need six months before they begin to decide the future of Waterside?? What the hell are they going to do with their six months of free time? Check their facebook accounts? play some bad ass games of scrabble? Watch the Redskins play every sunday? Take that very long backpack tour of Europe they have been thinking about? Seriously, they act like this is no big deal, its just the city's waterfront. One would think now would be the time for talking about this and wanting to construct a future for this area and when you have a developer like Divaris interested, it would make sense to want to actually talk with him more about this.

Personally I think Divaris is spot on for this. A Seafood/Farmers Market thing would make sense being on the water and with the Atlantic within reach...one would think the best place for Seafood in Norfolk should be at Waterside....but if the city wishes to drag their asses over something like this, I guess they can....this would be a great time to look for politicians that actually want to do things rather than take their sweet time waiting to begin researching what to do.

Thanks for the pictures Telmnstr, I can see why the mall is so dead...the interior design of the place now just looks horrible...I dont remember it looking that bad in the 80s and early 90s....I could of swore it was much more open within with a large atrium in the center of the building. The photos make it look like it is as bad as the Pembroke Mall (from what I can remember about that mall.)

It's still open with a large atrium. you just didn't scroll through the rest of the photos. Def. could use some updating, esp. the floor

[urbanlife]

It's still open with a large atrium. you just didn't scroll through the rest of the photos. Def. could use some updating, esp. the floor

You're right, I must of missed the shot that showed that last night.

[Telmnstr]

It was quite a bit different from the last time I went over there, which was probably 4 or 5 months ago.

The dark floor hurts.

It does feel disconnected from downtown as well. Playing frogger to get over there.

[ronsmytheiii]

I think the city should accept Divaris' proposal.

Well lets first see other ideas, just because Divaris has come up with a good ideas does not mean another company has a better one. I am pretty sure that if the City just went with the proposal now plenty of people would cry foul. Lets take our time and not get a knee jerk reaction like what happened to the bars.

[mistermetaj]

Well lets first see other ideas, just because Divaris has come up with a good ideas does not mean another company has a better one. I am pretty sure that if the City just went with the proposal now plenty of people would cry foul. Lets take our time and not get a knee jerk reaction like what happened to the bars.

Wasn't cafes and farmers markets proposed for the downtown lightrail stop? How many farmers markets can Norfolk support? I don't like the idea at all...Talk about under utilizing the waterfront. We need to look at Baltimore's inner harbor (and only the inner harbor nothing else!) to see what needs to be done at waterside.

[brikkman]

Wasn't cafes and farmers markets proposed for the downtown lightrail stop? How many farmers markets can Norfolk support? I don't like the idea at all...Talk about under utilizing the waterfront. We need to look at Baltimore's inner harbor (and only the inner harbor nothing else!) to see what needs to be done at waterside.

I do not like the idea either.....

6 months, that sounds about right for NHRA to do something about anything. Remember, these are the same people who do not care to manage their own housing projects, they are only interested in filling the need to put people in them.

Why so shocked?

[urbanlife]

Wasn't cafes and farmers markets proposed for the downtown lightrail stop? How many farmers markets can Norfolk support? I don't like the idea at all...Talk about under utilizing the waterfront. We need to look at Baltimore's inner harbor (and only the inner harbor nothing else!) to see what needs to be done at waterside.

Well when you look at Baltimore's inner harbor, you actually have to look at everything else because projects like this do not live in a vacuum and are influenced by what is around them. I dont see a farmers market being that good of an idea right at the downtown stop, unless they were thinking more like a once a week thing...then I can understand that.

The question should be, if the waterfront isnt being used for industrial, then what should it be used for and how can it benefit the residents of the city the most?

[varider]

I was in Waterside on Sat. night and was surprised to find that the place was sort of hoppin'.

But what do you guys think about something like this going into Waterside?

I went here on Black Friday, the place was sooo.. packed. The structure is nothing special. Dirty bathrooms, visible ventilation/wires, etc. but the diverse, fresh food options are a major draw for the Philadelphia region. It's no chains, just fresh locally owned businsses. Everything from hot dogs/burgers to asian cuisine, to ice cream and cookies. The aroma is great.

Reading Terminal Market:

[jeffconn]

I was in Waterside on Sat. night and was surprised to find that the place was sort of hoppin'.

But what do you guys think about something like this going into Waterside?

I went here on Black Friday, the place was sooo.. packed. The structure is nothing special. Dirty bathrooms, visible ventilation/wires, etc. but the diverse, fresh food options are a major draw for the Philadelphia region. It's no chains, just fresh locally owned businsses. Everything from hot dogs/burgers to asian cuisine, to ice cream and cookies. The aroma is great.

The place reminds me of Roanoke's city market building.