Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[skymiler]

CSX moves most of the UPS rail shipments on East coast. NS is not a big player with UPS.

Regarding intermodal moves via rail from airport, moves from Charlotte to Charleston and Savannah are considered short haul. This is not good revenue business for railroads. Most intermodal movements for rail need to travel 500+ miles to make sense. Most likely these short haul moves would be made by truck.

[orulz]

I think there is practically zero synergy between intermodal rail freight and air freight. That's not why the intermodal yard is being built there at all. Anything that's valuable enough to be shipped by air, is valuable enough to justify the extra cost of at least truck freight.

 

Rather, it's there because it's a lot of flat land that couldn't be used for much else since it's hemmed in by runways on all sides, it's close to Norfolk Southern's mainline and several interstates, and both the City and Norfolk Southern wanted to the North Tryon facility to move anyway.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Here is the NCDOT project page for the CSX/NS grade separation, if it hasn't already been posted. It says construction will start in Fall 2013, but who knows.

 

 

Norfolk Southern is investing heavily in intermodal. In addition to the new intermodal yard at CLT, the South Carolina Ports Authority is constructing an inland port at GSP on the ATL-DC mainline with a daily service to the Port of Charleston. The land has been sitting for 30 years, but NS made the push for it in January 2012. It may be short haul and low revenue, but low revenue is better than no revenue. Coal has been the breadwinner for NS, and shipments are way down and will continue to decrease. That said, I think they're trying to get ahead of CSX for intermodal shipments on the east coast by getting all this infrastructure in place before the completion of the Panama Canal expansion and Charleston harbor dredging to accommodate post-Panamax ships.

[skymiler]

Here is the NCDOT project page for the CSX/NS grade separation, if it hasn't already been posted. It says construction will start in Fall 2013, but who knows.

 

 

Norfolk Southern is investing heavily in intermodal. In addition to the new intermodal yard at CLT, the South Carolina Ports Authority is constructing an inland port at GSP on the ATL-DC mainline with a daily service to the Port of Charleston. The land has been sitting for 30 years, but NS made the push for it in January 2012. It may be short haul and low revenue, but low revenue is better than no revenue. Coal has been the breadwinner for NS, and shipments are way down and will continue to decrease. That said, I think they're trying to get ahead of CSX for intermodal shipments on the east coast by getting all this infrastructure in place before the completion of the Panama Canal expansion and Charleston harbor dredging to accommodate post-Panamax ships.

The problem with this is there's no guarantee that the Panama Canal expansion will bring more traffic to east coast ports. CSX too is investing heavily in intermodal and has been doing so for the last several years. Look up the new state of the art intermodal facility built in NW Ohio. This was done to get around the congestion in Chicago. CSX has a program called the National Gateway. It's all centered around Intermodal traffic. Both railroads have suffered with domesti coal regulations.

[carolinagarnet]

Here is the NCDOT project page for the CSX/NS grade separation, if it hasn't already been posted. It says construction will start in Fall 2013, but who knows.

 

 

Norfolk Southern is investing heavily in intermodal. In addition to the new intermodal yard at CLT, the South Carolina Ports Authority is constructing an inland port at GSP on the ATL-DC mainline with a daily service to the Port of Charleston. The land has been sitting for 30 years, but NS made the push for it in January 2012. It may be short haul and low revenue, but low revenue is better than no revenue. Coal has been the breadwinner for NS, and shipments are way down and will continue to decrease. That said, I think they're trying to get ahead of CSX for intermodal shipments on the east coast by getting all this infrastructure in place before the completion of the Panama Canal expansion and Charleston harbor dredging to accommodate post-Panamax ships.

 

It was actually already announced. Of course in typical fashion Nikki Haley was there pumping it up as the biggest economic development to ever happen in the history of the US. I believe there was a holdup with a tenant in a warehouse along the tracks, but SC paid $2M to buy out the rest of the 11 year lease. I'm not sure what the timeline is for the port, but of course it needs to be built in conjunction with the Charleston port dredging before the Panama Canal expansion is finished.

[kermit]

I'm an aviation nerd and it's frustrating to me when people dont understand the impact of say being a hub airport, soooo, to all the rail needs out there. Tell me;

How significant is this new intermodal yard going to be?

 

Nice article in the observer on the new intermodal yard.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/18/4049596/charlotte-looks-to-airport-rail.html

[Otto]

CSX moves most of the UPS rail shipments on East coast. NS is not a big player with UPS.

Regarding intermodal moves via rail from airport, moves from Charlotte to Charleston and Savannah are considered short haul. This is not good revenue business for railroads. Most intermodal movements for rail need to travel 500+ miles to make sense. Most likely these short haul moves would be made by truck.

True enough, rail makes money, in particular intermodal, on the longer routes.  However, if you can ship thousands of containers between Charlotte and Charleston or Savannah, then the profit margins increase.....the intermodal becomes more competitive.  Charlotte is the logistical hub for NE South Carolina, western NC, and potentially, eastern Tennessee.  If more freight from Asia begins to use the Panama Canal, then the quickest  access to the Charlotte intermodal yard is Charleston or Savannah.  If it continues to flow through the West Coast, the Crescent Corridor via the NS Memphis Gateway is the route the Charlotte.

[15895]

Nice article in the observer on the new intermodal yard.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/18/4049596/charlotte-looks-to-airport-rail.html

Great article

Edited May 19, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[Norm2]

So the city of Charlotte will be able to develop 40 acres of land when the intermodal facility opens at the airport. I vote for those 40 acres to be a HUGE park!

[skymiler]

True enough, rail makes money, in particular intermodal, on the longer routes.  However, if you can ship thousands of containers between Charlotte and Charleston or Savannah, then the profit margins increase.....the intermodal becomes more competitive.  Charlotte is the logistical hub for NE South Carolina, western NC, and potentially, eastern Tennessee.  If more freight from Asia begins to use the Panama Canal, then the quickest  access to the Charlotte intermodal yard is Charleston or Savannah.  If it continues to flow through the West Coast, the Crescent Corridor via the NS Memphis Gateway is the route the Charlotte.

Does Asian traffic using the newly widened Panama Canal coming to southern ports just to go back to the west coast make sense? Time wise, no. I think there will be a bump in traffic but most likely nothing like what people are predicting.

The advantage to using the Panama Canal from Asia is to get the east coast containers to the east coast quicker. With the west coast ports at capacity this keeps the east coast traffic flowing better. I don't see the NS Gateway in Memphis being a player with this. Most likely, with the reduction of east coast goods coming into west coast ports, this frees up space for west coast goods there and eliminates the need for that traffic to use the Panama Canal.

It still doesn't make much sense for containers out of the ports of Charleston or Savannah to come to Charlotte via rail. They will most likely be broken up in Charlotte and switched to different trains/routes once in Charlotte. I see most being done by truck from the ports into Charlotte and Atlanta, then placed on rail out of Charlotte and Atlanta. CSX has intermodal yards in both cities and this is their model.

[Third Strike]

Looks like meetings are going to be held on a potential HSR line between Atlanta and Charlotte:

 

http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=261992

 

 

Here's some of the various routes this line could take:

 

The six potential corridor route alternatives including three shared use alternatives: the Norfolk Southern (NS) railroad corridor (also referred to as the Southern Crescent Corridor route) which runs through Gainesville, Cornelia and Toccoa in northeast Georgia; the CSX Transportation (CSX) right-of-way between Atlanta and Chester, SC via Athens, GA and NS right-of-way between Chester and Charlotte via Rock hill, SC; CSX right-of-way between Atlanta and Augusta and NS right-of-way between Augusta and Charlotte via Columbia; two interstate alternatives: the I-85 corridor and the I-20 and I-77 corridor, and a Greenfield corridor which offers the opportunity to define a fully grade-separated route alignment which has optimal geometric characteristics for high-speed passenger rail service. Some of these corridor alternatives were previously defined as a result of a 2008 Feasibility Study.

 

 

[dubone]

I really hope they pick the Columbia-Augusta-Atlanta route and end the silliness of a separate Raleigh to Florida line.  Then start the Florida-bound route either from Columbia-Charleston-Savannah.. or else Augusta-Savannah...   The Raleigh-Fayetteville-Charleston routing is a farce because there will be very few short/medium distance riders in the Raleigh to Charleston section (Fayetteville is a small city and it is very rural through there).    If they get to FL by way of Charlotte-Columbia, you add all sorts of city connections like Greensboro-Columbia, Charlotte-Savannah and so on that are actually within the southeast megalopolis rather than bypassing it.  

 

It makes sense both from a national system perspective, regional and for Charlotte.   That plan mapped out before clearly does not have input from the Carolinas.  

[mallguy]

The HSR planners are making higher-speed rail way more complicated than it has to be.

 

Back when private railroads ran passenger trains between Atlanta and Charlotte (until the late 1960s on what is now CSX and until 1979 on what is now Norfolk Southern), the Charlotte-Gastonia-Spartanburg-Greenville-Atlanta route had way, way more trains on it than other routes.  That same route is currently used by Amtrak, and it is currently upgraded to 79 mph standards and has stations.

 

All that needs to be done is just to find funds to pay for another train and get Norfolk Southern on board. 

 

No need to spend years and dollars figuring out which route to take.

[TotalLamer]

The HSR planners are making higher-speed rail way more complicated than it has to be.

 

Back when private railroads ran passenger trains between Atlanta and Charlotte (until the late 1960s on what is now CSX and until 1979 on what is now Norfolk Southern), the Charlotte-Gastonia-Spartanburg-Greenville-Atlanta route had way, way more trains on it than other routes.  That same route is currently used by Amtrak, and it is currently upgraded to 79 mph standards and has stations.

 

All that needs to be done is just to find funds to pay for another train and get Norfolk Southern on board. 

 

No need to spend years and dollars figuring out which route to take.

 

CSX's freight route to Atlanta right now is... more than a little silly.

 

Charlotte -> Monroe.  Go past Monroe Yard to run around your train.  Go back the other direction to Greenwood, then Greenwood to Atlanta.

[skymiler]

CSX's freight route to Atlanta right now is... more than a little silly.

 

Charlotte -> Monroe.  Go past Monroe Yard to run around your train.  Go back the other direction to Greenwood, then Greenwood to Atlanta.

Not really.....As I'm sure you know, CSX doesn't run that many trains a day from Charlotte to Atlanta via Monroe. The cost of buying land and placing rail to put a turnout in from the Charlotte Sub to the Monroe sub (southbound) for a couple of trains a day doesn't even come close to being justified.

[TotalLamer]

Not really.....As I'm sure you know, CSX doesn't run that many trains a day from Charlotte to Atlanta via Monroe. The cost of buying land and placing rail to put a turnout in from the Charlotte Sub to the Monroe sub (southbound) for a couple of trains a day doesn't even come close to being justified.

 

You have to keep in mind that Monroe is ALREADY a total logjam pretty much every day and that was BEFORE they cut off the Utility Conductor job there a week or so back.  So for example if someone needs to run around their train or go through the Steen Crossover, both will require the Conductor to walk the full length of the train at least once.  Q469 was a good 12 hours late yesterday because they sat in Monroe for HOURS waiting to get out.  I believe our last line-of-road Trainmaster put it best... "Monroe?  What are you talking about, trains don't move in Monroe.  They just sit there and wave at each other."

Edited June 1, 2013 by TotalLamer

[cltbwimob]

You have to keep in mind that Monroe is ALREADY a total logjam pretty much every day and that was BEFORE they cut off the Utility Conductor job there a week or so back.  So for example if someone needs to run around their train or go through the Steen Crossover, both will require the Conductor to walk the full length of the train at least once.  Q469 was a good 12 hours late yesterday because they sat in Monroe for HOURS waiting to get out.  I believe our last line-of-road Trainmaster put it best... "Monroe?  What are you talking about, trains don't move in Monroe.  They just sit there and wave at each other."

Isn't a plan in place to move the Monroe yard (in addition to building an intermodal terminal) to Marshville if Project Legacy comes to fruition? If so would a large yard like the one in Rocky Mount be more appropriate considering the jam in Monroe that is only expected to get worse?

[skymiler]

You have to keep in mind that Monroe is ALREADY a total logjam pretty much every day and that was BEFORE they cut off the Utility Conductor job there a week or so back.  So for example if someone needs to run around their train or go through the Steen Crossover, both will require the Conductor to walk the full length of the train at least once.  Q469 was a good 12 hours late yesterday because they sat in Monroe for HOURS waiting to get out.  I believe our last line-of-road Trainmaster put it best... "Monroe?  What are you talking about, trains don't move in Monroe.  They just sit there and wave at each other."

Very aware of how things work in Monroe. Worked there for several years coming out of Charlotte and Hamlet. Have also worked on the Florence Division in the past as a manager. Everything you mentioned above still doesn't justify the cost it would take to build a more efficient route to Atlanta.

With PTC coming and the big bill that's following it you will see a lot of changes. A new yard in Marshville? No way, not any time in your career. With the intermodal terminal recently expanded in Charlotte, CSX would not invest that kind of capital 40 miles down the road.

[mallguy]

CSX's CEO says that the railroad can't be part of Obama's HSR plans:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-06/csx-chief-says-he-can-t-be-part-of-obama-high-speed-rail-plan.html

 

I assume that the statement applies to any HSR plans since the logic behind his statement isn't based on partisan politics, but HSR planners should keep this in mind.

 

Again...all that needs to be done is to find funding for another train on the Atlanta-Charlotte route, work with Norfolk Southern to find space for it, and keep incrementally upgrading the track for higher speeds.

 

Not rocket science, and it doesn't require tons of time spent making plans and engaging in studies for things that won't happen.

Edited June 1, 2013 by mallguy

[cltbwimob]

^^^From everything I have been able to read, CSX was on board with the plans for project which is supposed to be a massive industrial and commercial park just east of Marshville. The project was centered around the idea of an intermodal yard in the park. Granted all these grandiose plans came about before the recession, however there still seems to be interest in this project, and it is a major reason the Monroe Bypass is on hold.

At any rate, my question was more about the switch yard itself and not the intermodal terminal, because moving the Monroe yard was also a part of the project legacy plan. I was wondering if it made sense to build a large yard like the one in Rocky Mount considering the amount of trains that get log jammed in Monroe and because the traffic is expected to grow? I do not work for the railroad so I only have outsider info like news media.

Edit: This was intended for Skymiler or TotaLamer to answer even though the up arrows point to mall guy's post

Edited June 1, 2013 by cltbwimob

[TotalLamer]

 Everything you mentioned above still doesn't justify the cost it would take to build a more efficient route to Atlanta.

 

You seem to have missed my point... I was replying to the bit about a HSR link to Atlanta and commenting that CSX's route to Atlanta is a little janky... therefore it wouldn't be suitable for a passenger route.

^^^From everything I have been able to read, CSX was on board with the plans for project which is supposed to be a massive industrial and commercial park just east of Marshville. The project was centered around the idea of an intermodal yard in the park. Granted all these grandiose plans came about before the recession, however there still seems to be interest in this project, and it is a major reason the Monroe Bypass is on hold.

At any rate, my question was more about the switch yard itself and not the intermodal terminal, because moving the Monroe yard was also a part of the project legacy plan. I was wondering if it made sense to build a large yard like the one in Rocky Mount considering the amount of trains that get log jammed in Monroe and because the traffic is expected to grow? I do not work for the railroad so I only have outsider info like news media.

Edit: This was intended for Skymiler or TotaLamer to answer even though the up arrows point to mall guy's post

 

Honestly I haven't heard a word around the yard office about moving Monroe and/or building anything in Marshville... and keep in mind no one loves rumormongering and drama like railroaders.

Edited June 1, 2013 by TotalLamer

[skymiler]

^^^From everything I have been able to read, CSX was on board with the plans for project which is supposed to be a massive industrial and commercial park just east of Marshville. The project was centered around the idea of an intermodal yard in the park. Granted all these grandiose plans came about before the recession, however there still seems to be interest in this project, and it is a major reason the Monroe Bypass is on hold.

At any rate, my question was more about the switch yard itself and not the intermodal terminal, because moving the Monroe yard was also a part of the project legacy plan. I was wondering if it made sense to build a large yard like the one in Rocky Mount considering the amount of trains that get log jammed in Monroe and because the traffic is expected to grow? I do not work for the railroad so I only have outsider info like news media.

Edit: This was intended for Skymiler or TotaLamer to answer even though the up arrows point to mall guy's post

To answer your question about a new yard in Monroe/Marshville for switching....like the one in Rocky Mount. No, it wouldn't make since to do this to reduce the log jams in Monroe. Hamlet, the largest CSX rail yard in NC is just to the east of Marshville. A yard like Rocky Mount or Hamlet isn't build to eliminate log jams, they're built to switch/build trains. Hamlet for CSX is much like a major airline hub is for airlines. CSX has 10 of these across their network. Monroe needs a turnout from the Charlotte Sub to the Monroe Sub (southbound) to help reduce some of the log jams. In addition to that a bypass around Monroe Yard allowing trains from the Charlotte Sub destined for Hamlet would also be helpful.

None of these options are cheap and I don't forsee anything happening anytime soon. With the federal mandate of Positive Train Contol, the railroad has to be really smart about building projects of this size. This more than the 2009 recession plays a big role in past plans. That's why the Pinoca Yard Ramp expansion project was done. It was a lot cheaper.

Edited June 2, 2013 by skymiler

[cowboy_wilhelm]

The HSR planners are making higher-speed rail way more complicated than it has to be.

 

Back when private railroads ran passenger trains between Atlanta and Charlotte (until the late 1960s on what is now CSX and until 1979 on what is now Norfolk Southern), the Charlotte-Gastonia-Spartanburg-Greenville-Atlanta route had way, way more trains on it than other routes.  That same route is currently used by Amtrak, and it is currently upgraded to 79 mph standards and has stations.

 

All that needs to be done is just to find funds to pay for another train and get Norfolk Southern on board. 

 

No need to spend years and dollars figuring out which route to take.

 

 

 

I agree. I posted in this thread or the North Carolina Intercity Transit thread about the idea of a regional Crescent service from Atlanta to Washington, D.C. Based on the current Crescent schedule, it could go something like departing Atlanta at 7:00 am, GSP by mid-morning, Charlotte around 1:00 pm, and D.C. before too late in the evening. Perfect schedule for giving Charlotteans another option to Washington, and finally providing a daytime service from Charlotte to Atlanta. I believe Atlanta-GSP-Charlotte has pretty large passenger potential, even with the relatively slow service between the cities.

 

 

Georgia is showing more interest in intercity rail service than they have in the past, and could possibly provide some initial funding to get the service started. I wouldn't bet on North Carolina providing any funding with the current General Assembly, and I won't even mention South Carolina. But this would be a great way to gauge interest in daily intercity rail between Charlotte and Atlanta, and could be a catalyst for funding the extension of HSR to Atlanta.

 

Of course, for Norfolk Southern to even consider this proposal, the CSX/NS grade separation will have to be completed first. Gateway Station would be a huge plus too. Any year now, any year.

Edited June 3, 2013 by cowboy_wilhelm

[mallguy]

Agreed.  The Crescent between NY and Atlanta has more demand than it can meet; the train is considering expanding its coach capacity and will be expanding its sleeping car capacity soon, once new equipment arrives.  There is definitely unmet demand for daytime train service along the Charlotte-Atlanta segment.

 

I think that people who want more trains between Charlotte and Atlanta need to think outside the box.  At least NC uses its own equipment and has taken the initiative at the state level in getting those trains (particularly now since trains with trips under 750 miles have to be state-supported).  I think that people need to look at giving Norfolk Southern a tax credit or tax deduction for running its own passenger trains--Republicans who rule SC and GA may go for that even though they wouldn't go for a direct subsidy to Amtrak.

[orulz]

Cross posted from the NC passenger rail thread.

 

The southern extension of the SEHSR from Charlotte to Atlanta is getting some attention lately thanks to funding from the feds and Georgia DOT.

 

Study web page

 

There are six alternatives:

1. Norfolk Southern
2. I-85
3. Greenfield HSR via SC Upstate region
4. CSX via Athens and Rock Hill
5. CSX via Augusta and Columbia
6. I-20/I-77

I think Alternatives 4-6 lose out pretty badly based on the extra distance.

 

The Greenfield HSR route scores the highest, but also has the worst station locations at intermediate cities. The Norfolk Southern route has the best station locations, going through every downtown along the way, but is also curvy and slow and would presumably be expensive to straighten. I-85 is Not as fast as a greenfield route, and the stations don't make it downtown, but at least the stations aren't way outside Greenville and Spartanburg.

 

All routes terminate at Gateway in Charlotte, and 1-3 also have stations at CLT.

 

In my opinion the ideal route would be the greenfield route, with a diversion that gets as close as possible to downtown Greenville, whether by I-85, some railroad alignment, or something else, like I-185 to I-385..

 

But in honesty, the greenfield route would only make sense if high speed rail north of Charlotte is also built to a pretty high standard. There was some talk of a future straight line greenfield route between Charlotte and Raleigh, and we all know the route from Raleigh to Richmond is being designed for speeds in excess of its original planned operating speed of 110mph.

 

There is a meeting tomorrow at 2327 Tipton Drive in Charlotte from 3-6pm about this study.