Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[orulz]

Typically with these sort of PPP agreements there is some sort of a penalty or reversion clause in case the developer doesn't deliver something within a set period of time.

I think Levine has no such restriction because he just acquired the land himself, not as part of a PPP with the city or NCDOT or anyone. If nothing else, I expect that will push this project forward with a semi-reasonable timeframe.

[kermit]

Not sure how much information would be made available but I just noticed that one of the agenda items at the November 14th Historic District Comission meeing is for 600 W 8th Street: Development of Rail Corridor NCDOT Rail Division is the Applicant. The item number is HDC 2012-135.

[Munson79]

What does everyone know about this story about a plan for a $200 million, Grand Central Station like development uptown?

http://www.wcnc.com/community/Gateway-Station-could-make-CLT-a-world-class-city-177040061.html

[Guest]

See the thread at the very top of the page with hundreds of posts :-)

[Matthew.Brendan]

I really wouldn't insult GCT by suggesting anything of the sort.

[Urbanity]

Re: discussion of the 200 million vs. 1 billion scale of the project. It's my perception (and I could be wrong) that the 200m is in regards to this part of the project: http://charmeck.org/...ctoverview.aspx If correct, I believe $200 million is a good size budget.

I would like to point out that they are not building the pretty little office tower that is always shown in the diagrams alongside the Great hall as part of the development - only the footprint of it. The office tower is labeled as the "Air Rights Building" and only requires HINES to have some foundation work done I believe.

As far as the $1b figure being mentioned I note this in the CBJ article on HINES contract award: "The state transportation department estimates the transit station could create an additional $1 billion in private development on the site."

That private development I always thought was in regards to the long discussed POLK building site and the Johnson and Wales business school components (among others).

Edited: See CATS diagram of area including areas marked as future Development areas which is what I reference above

Edited November 3, 2012 by Urbanity

[15895]

That is beautiful but opposite of anything Charlotte wants. I think they call it grand central of clt meaning strictly a multimodal hub.

It works in NYC because they have people... And I'm sure it's purpose wasn't to spur development or add retail to a dead zone

[dubone]

Keep in mind this old idea of how it would look and be seems to be pretty well scrapped in favor of new ideas from these private teams. Certainly Hines would have submitted a theory of the development opportunities, but certainly as long as the public needs are met for the transit and station components, I suspect that the state and city would be open to expertise of the development partners.

But yes, the $200m is for the core part of the public project, but to develop all of the 20 acres of NCDOT land would be a much larger sum and be over a long period of time.

[orulz]

So the station complex itself is supposed to cost $200 million, right? I assume this is for the cost of the track work, platforms, train station, and all the intermodal aspects of the station such as local, commuter, and intercity bus bays, as well as parking decks. (But NOT the CSX-NS grade separation which seems to already be fully funded.)

Does this deal mean that Hines is providing money towards the construction of this station in exchange for the rights to develop the other land? What other funding sources are anticipated to go into construction of Gateway Station? How much (if any) of that money has been lined up already?

[Otto]

Not sure how much information would be made available but I just noticed that one of the agenda items at the November 14th Historic District Comission meeing is for 600 W 8th Street: Development of Rail Corridor NCDOT Rail Division is the Applicant. The item number is HDC 2012-135.

NCDOT has to get a Certificate of Appropriateness for the CSXT/NS Mainline Grade Separation Project due to the presence of the 4th Ward Historic District. This is unrelated to the Gateway Station.

[Otto]

That is beautiful but opposite of anything Charlotte wants. I think they call it grand central of clt meaning strictly a multimodal hub.

It works in NYC because they have people... And I'm sure it's purpose wasn't to spur development or add retail to a dead zone

One must also consider the era when Grand Central Terminal was constructed and where it was constructed.....New York in the early 1900s. This was the heyday of railroading in the most dynamic city on earth at the time. Railroad companies were in competition to get passengers in to Manhattan and to welcome them in the grandest of stations. We are in a different time when private railroad companies are not making money off of moving people....so the motivation is different. The Gateway Station may be grand...ultimately....but not Grand Central...grand!

[dubone]

So the station complex itself is supposed to cost $200 million, right? I assume this is for the cost of the track work, platforms, train station, and all the intermodal aspects of the station such as local, commuter, and intercity bus bays, as well as parking decks. (But NOT the CSX-NS grade separation which seems to already be fully funded.)

Does this deal mean that Hines is providing money towards the construction of this station in exchange for the rights to develop the other land? What other funding sources are anticipated to go into construction of Gateway Station? How much (if any) of that money has been lined up already?

Yes, it has been long estimated that the station itself was ~$200m, not the private development. The private development would be an investment by, now, Hines, to whatever value they believed was appropriate, but the goal is that that that investment would help pay for as much of the station at possible. The original theory was that the station would simply BE the lobby of an office building (the old sketch-like rendering posted again recently), and air rights. I'm sure that the ideas presented by Hines that will hopefully be made public at some point were ideas that both helped maximize the development of that land AND would help close to gap in the funding for the station.

Stimulus funds already will cover the Grade Separation project. They also had past earmarks and other funding that is sitting in an account for this project.

I found a wealth of documents here:

https://connect.ncdo...Gateway Station

Interestingly, based on the Q&A sheet, the Polk Bldg, which is included on some of the maps there, is clarified to NOT be included in the PPP land for the station, as it is not owned by the state. I guess I knew that but had lost track of it.

[Matthew.Brendan]

So the Polk building will continue to sit and rot for the time being?

[dubone]

Yes. But concrete and granite doesn't rot. Obviously the brick facade is a problem, but it's better for it to have no plans than all of the plans during the condo boom where they were actively plotting to replace it.

[orulz]

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much of a funding gap is there for the station? How much of the $200 million is already sitting in that account? How much is Hines expected to account for?

Raleigh's Union Station has pretty much all of its funding lined up, though it probably won't be as nice as Charlotte's station. It seems Gateway Station is the most complicated, most expensive, and last project to get moving, but when done, hopefully it will be the crown jewel of NC's passegner rail system.

[dubone]

If the STIP were still online, it would be easy, but I cannot see it out there now. An older one I had on my laptop didn't have the station on it anymore. Of course, it is probably still in design consideration how the station would combine with an office or mixed use project, so I suspect that the costs are still fluid at this point. I want to say the only amount in the 'account' was a $25m or something earmark they used to mention in the articles, plus all the track work that has been funded.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

If the STIP were still online, it would be easy, but I cannot see it out there now.

I hate what NCDOT has done to their website. It is impossible to find anything.

[ajfunder]

The Rail Division website has not been updated in ages either.

[michaelef]

Here is a small update with Hines on Gateway Station.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2012/11/hines-ready-to-roll-on-charlotte.html

[Otto]

NCDOT has published a website for the CSX/NS Mainline Grade Separation.

http://www.ncdot.gov/projects/charlottemainline/

[orulz]

Looking at the public hearing map on that page, I note a couple of things:

(1) The CSX trench looks like it has been made wide enough to accommodate two tracks (seems like 30-35' wide). This was not the original plan.

(2) There is what looks (at first glance) like an odd chicane in the CSX trench where it has a series of rapid and fairly sharp reverse curves. This was also not in the original plan.

I have a suspicion that #1 was a demand CSX brought to the table, perhaps somewhat late in the process, but NCDOT had to add #2 in order to achieve this without encroaching on the bents supporting the Brookshire Freeway. If I'm right, Perhaps if the Brookshire is ever built, the CSX line could be straightened back out.

[TotalLamer]

You're most likely correct about #1. I've been furloughed for awhile so I haven't caught the most recent news, but there is a good reason CSX spent so much money improving Pinoca Yard this past year. I'm not sure if you've been down Rozzles Ferry recently, but the yard lead all the way down to the 85 bridge is now double-tracked and Charlotte has signals for the first time ever, all the way from Freedom Siding to the far side of Pinoca Yard. Last I heard, their next plan is to put in signals nearly the entire way to Monroe and add a siding at Matthews. If they're putting all this work in, they're doing it for a reason... I'd presume a lot more traffic is expected, so it makes sense they're designing with eventual double main line in mind.

[kermit]

I'd presume a lot more traffic is expected, so it makes sense they're designing with eventual double main line in mind.

What kind of new traffic is CSX expecting to get on this track? Looking on the maps I had always assumed that the Monroe - Charlotte - Lincolnton - Shelby - Bostic track was essentially a collector of local freight and had relatively little through traffic. I can't imagine that local freight is expected to increase to double track levels, so what kinda of through traffic do they expect to see? (more intermodals on the Clinchfield and they need another route to the coast perhaps?) Surely NS will have faster intermodal service to Charlotte from just about anywhere (other than Wilmington).

Sorry about the dumb questions, I don't know much about this stretch of track but I would like to learn more.

Edited November 15, 2012 by kermit

[orulz]

That's impressive, all the investment CSX has been making in the Charlotte area. It looks like they will be essentially three single-track bridges away from completing double track all the way from Mount Holly to Charlotte (I-85, French Street, I-77.)

I also know almost nothing about this stretch of track, but I would not be surprised if CSX freight traffic is presently limited specifically because of the diamond with NS that NCDOT is planning to grade-separate. That is an extremely busy crossing. Perhaps they are upgrading their lines in anticipation of the grade separation project.

Charlotte has great access to the (former) Clinchfield, I'm sure you know Charlotte's CSX line connects to it in Bostic. The Clinchfield is one of very few routes that cross the southern Appalachians. It is a very well-built railroad and is an important link between the southeast and the midwest. Besides the Norfolk Southern route through Asheville (which is more restricted due to grades through the Andrews Geyser loops) the only alternatives are a detour through Roanoke or Atlanta.

[TotalLamer]

As far as what traffic they might be expecting? It's hard to say. Charlotte itself of course is becoming more and more of a "big deal". Right now, the only intermodal train that leaves Charlotte and is crewed by Charlotte guys (the intermodal to Greenwood doesn't run with Charlotte crews) is the one to Florence, but I've heard from some of the guys that have been around longer than me that at some point an intermodal from Charlotte to Wilmington was being discussed. I've also heard from some other guys that CSX has been considering moving some of the traffic that runs through Greenwood to the Charlotte route. Who knows how true that is. Rumor is RIFE on the railroad pretty much all the time... and only a few things ever become reality, so who knows.