South Light Rail Transit

[monsoon]

I know this is slightly off topic, but it deals with transit... does anyone know when I-77 south of the city is suppose to be widened (HOV extension?), as well as I-485 from I-77 to Johnston Road (I think it should really be 3 lanes atleast to Independence Boulevard interchange)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The state has said they will not widen 485 until the highway is completed. Now projected to be sometime in 2010-2013 depending upon whose schedule you believe. The last section to be built will connect I77 North of the city to I85 North of the city.

The NCDOT does not have any firm dates on the books for widening I-77 South of the city. Part of the reason is the cost. Every bridge from Tyvola road back into the city will have to be rebuilt and the State will have to purchase a great deal of land. It will be one of the most expensive projects the state has undertaken and will cause major disruptions due to the traffic load in the road now.

There is an interesting but a little dated history of I-77 at this link.

[monsoon]

And so it begins.

The paper today has a good article on the official ground breaking of the CATS South Light Rail Line which is today. (Reg required. Use Bugmenot )

Work beginning today on 1st light-rail line

[reverbandwhiskey]

I live next to the project and will try and update the progress on a regular basis with pictures.

[Noneck_08]

I was just woundering will the Light-Rail line work? I know all of us in the fourms will ride it but will the rest of Charlotte do the same. The trolly line is booming but it's more of a tourist/pleasure ride I thinck. So does anyone know how the Light-Rail has worked in other cities simialer to Charlotte.

[cooperdawg]

In the short term, the light rail will look like a failure. In the long term, it will be a success. The light rail is planning ahead, not a problem solving solution in the now like highway widening. Before the south end of the city becomes too dense and it becomes difficult to acquire land for a continuous corridor through that part of the city, it's better to build it now and dictate that type of growth based on the location of the line. In 25 years, each station has been designed to be it's own version of what Dilworth north of Tremont looks like now (probably with a two-lane road versus 4 and much more pedestrian friendly).

Ground floor retail with housing atop and the sky's the limit as to how much housing, but I wouldn't be surprised to see projects sprou up on the scale of the Arlington around each station along the line. Young professionals desiring an alternative to downtown living and cost will populate the line in adjacent housing and utilize it for every day commuting. That's the plan in my mind. It's building for a population that doesn't yet exist, not catering to the existing demographic.

I live a mile from where the future Tyvola station is located, and couldn't seriously imagine using the line. So many people think of it that way, and it looks like a failure. It's a bigger picture that everyone is missing. The north corridor will serve a different function as it will provide an alternative to the existing population due to the distance from Uptown it will transport commuters.

[nyxmike]

Just curious, do you not imagine using it because a mile is "too far", or because you don't work downtown? Would you use it to go to a game or to hang out in the city, or would you still drive?

[dubone]

I think that the ridership numbers that for the south line will be very good. I think there will be times or days of the week that the train will just have a few people on it, and i'm sure rhino times will take photos of it at those times.... but i think, overall, the riderships numbers will meet or exceed the numbers forecast in the federal design submissions.

I think the main driver for the ridership will be that people would rather not pay for downtown parking. For some, they would prefer to bike some of the way, and ride the rest of the way. Others may find that they can get dropped off by spouses or friends, even though they may not work downtown. I also believe that the line will spur medium density housing around the stations, and that will contribute to ridership, too.

I know there is a chance that CATS will have to market themselves into success, but mostly i'm optimistic that the expected numbers of people will actually show up. I hope it could be like other transportation projects, where it hits capacity a few years after it opens... but luckily, rail lines are less costly to add capacity.

Also, the trains will absolutely PACKED in a decade, as 77 won't be widened for another two decades, and it is already far over capacity. I can't imagine commuting on that corridor without the trains.

[orulz]

I hope it could be like other transportation projects, where it hits capacity a few years after it opens... but luckily, rail lines are less costly to add capacity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a good point. Charlotte's LRT will initially operate at 15 minute peak headways, but thanks to LRT's excellent accelleration and braking characteristics, it's physically possible for light rail to run with headways down to 2 minutes (or less, maybe). All you gotta do is buy more vehicles.

[atlrvr]

I think there will be times or days of the week that the train will just have a few people on it, and i'm sure rhino times will take photos of it at those times....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just hope the Rhino Times doesn't take pictures of the Bobcats cheerleaders once they are at the new coliseum that they have criticized for the last two years.

I also see cooperdawg's vision of mid-high rises at almost every station, with each becoming a little mini-city. The hardest thing is going to be to attract office jobs to these stations. It would be great if a company would step up like BellSouth did in Atlanta and put their offices at stations, intentionally build too few parking spaces, but also build additional park-and-ride lots for their employees.

[cooperdawg]

I wouldn't use it even though my wife and I both work Uptown. We car pool and share a space at $75.00 a month. If we worked 20 days a month on average times two people times two trips (back and forth), that's $80.00 if the fare is only $1.00 for a one-way trip. I think it will be a little higher than that, maybe $1.25-$1.50. Either way, we break even but I've got no car when I leave my office, so if I want to go see a friend at Thomas Street Tavern after work, I have to go home first to get it all the way down the line at Tyvola. I'd be much more inclined to use it if I lived within a quarter-mile radius due to the convenience, but after a long day, I don't want to ride for twenty minutes on a train, then have another mile to walk (probably a mile and a half) alogn Tyvola (lovely pedestrian street ). If I drove to the station, I'd have to likely pay some other fee to park the car, which only adds to the cost.

[BRONX BOY]

I wouldn't use it even though my wife and I both work Uptown.  We car pool and share a space at $75.00 a month.  If we worked 20 days a month on average times two people times two trips (back and forth), that's $80.00 if the fare is only $1.00 for a one-way trip.  I think it will be a little higher than that, maybe $1.25-$1.50.  Either way, we break even but I've got no car when I leave my office, so if I want to go see a friend at Thomas Street Tavern after work, I have to go home first to get it all the way down the line at Tyvola.  I'd be much more inclined to use it if I lived within a quarter-mile radius due to the convenience, but after a long day, I don't want to ride for twenty minutes on a train, then have another mile to walk (probably a mile and a half) alogn Tyvola (lovely pedestrian street ).  If I drove to the station, I'd have to likely pay some other fee to park the car, which only adds to the cost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cooperdawg,

I understand your point to a certain degree, but with the gas prices the way they are now(doesn't look like it's going to drop anytime soon), don't you think that the trains ultimately be more cost effective for you & your wife?

[orulz]

Something else you might consider is a bicycle. Don't get a nice one if you're planning on locking it up at the station, but even with an old crappy one you can still cover a mile in five or six minutes. Dealing with the traffic is another issue but once you get used to it, it's not so bad.

[dubone]

Something else you might consider is a bicycle. Don't get a nice one if you're planning on locking it up at the station, but even with an old crappy one you can still cover a mile in five or six minutes. Dealing with the traffic is another issue but once you get used to it, it's not so bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Little sugar creek and bikelanes they are adding to many streets in charlotte when they repave them will potentially compete against light rail for the biking commuter. Within 3 miles of downtown, biking all the way might be easier/quicker than biking to the station. Further out, though, i think there is a chance than some people would use their bike and ride the light rail.

[fulcrumsf]

I wouldn't use it even though my wife and I both work Uptown.  We car pool and share a space at $75.00 a month.  If we worked 20 days a month on average times two people times two trips (back and forth), that's $80.00 if the fare is only $1.00 for a one-way trip.  I think it will be a little higher than that, maybe $1.25-$1.50.  Either way, we break even but I've got no car when I leave my office, so if I want to go see a friend at Thomas Street Tavern after work, I have to go home first to get it all the way down the line at Tyvola.  I'd be much more inclined to use it if I lived within a quarter-mile radius due to the convenience, but after a long day, I don't want to ride for twenty minutes on a train, then have another mile to walk (probably a mile and a half) alogn Tyvola (lovely pedestrian street ).  If I drove to the station, I'd have to likely pay some other fee to park the car, which only adds to the cost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most cities I've been to that have lightrail offer month and year passes. Ex. San Francisco's Muni Pass was $30.00 a month for and Adult pass when I last lived there. With a regular Bus fare of $1.25, if you ride the bus system twice a day that would save you roughly $15.00 a month from buying a month pass. Not including money saved on gas and parking.

If Charlottes plan to densify the area's around the stations pan out as expected, I think it could eventually prove successful.

[cooperdawg]

I'm about six miles from my office, that's not a lot of gas being used. As far as the bike thing, that's a possibility, but I don't think so for my wife (in heels). She can't ride a bike very well as it. I just don't see it happening for me unless we moved closer to the line. I'll probably move Uptown before it's completed anyways, so it's a moot point.

[hinsp0]

Does anyone know what kind of parking facilities are planned for Charlotte's rail transit system?

In my opinion, the availability of easy-to-use and cheap parking facilities will be the determining factor in the sucess/failure of Charlotte's rail transit system. Charlotte, like most US cities, is a city designed to be navigated by car. Thus, integrating rail transit with auto transit should be a central theme in Charlotte's transit system - and I don't mean setting up additional bus lines to get people from their neighborhoods to the rail station.

I grew up in Charlotte and I now work in Washington DC and live in Alexandria, VA. I use the metro to get to and from work - because DC rush hour traffic is nightmarish (there's no comparison to Charlotte traffic - period!) and because the metro is a much cheaper way to get to work than paying $16 per day to park in my building downtown (in addition to $2+ gallons of gas). However, the metro isn't without problems of its own, and parking is foremost of the problems.

Alexandria is rather suburban by DC standards, but only 3 stations (out of 10) in Alexandria offer all day parking. The station that I use (Van Dorn St) is the second to last on the blue line within a 15 minute down/uphill walk of my apartment (2 minutes by car or 15 by bus). Driving down the hill and parking, for the day, at the station would be by far the easiest way to commute... if the station lot had more than the 200 or so available daily parking spaces.

Because of the parking issue, I take the bus to and from the station during the winter (unfortunately the bus is erratic and rarely comes at the same time each morning or arrives at the station on time for the ride home in the afternoon). Walking is nice during warmer weather, but it sucks to walk when it rains, and the sidewalk to the station runs adjacent to a very busy road - which makes the walk pretty crappy when all you can hear is cars, trucks, buses. Plus, it is VERY convienient to have my car at the station in the evenings so I can run errands, visit friends, shop, etc without spending the 15 to 30 minutes it can take to get home (depending on whether I walk directly from the station or wait for the bus).

The point of all this is to decribe to you Charlotteans what its like to rely on rail transit as your main means to get to/from work, etc. Alexandria has much more population density than Charlotte, and despite a great rail system, most people in Alexandria still rely on their car and the roads to a great extent... and this is largely due to the lack of available parking at rail stations.

Charlotte should SERIOUSLY study a way to integrate the usage of the car into the rail system - and create a revolutionary, efficient mass transit system. People in Charlotte will not line up to ride the bus to the train station - its just plain easier to drive and have your car at your disposal (obviously, some people wil ride the rails, but the numbers will be minimal if the system isn't convinient to the car!). Available parking at Charlotte rail stations will make the entire commuting scene in Charlotte run much smoother - because people will be able to drive from further out to get to stations, people won't have to rely on bus lines that have problems with traffic and break-downs, and people will be able to get to their cars right after they get off the train each evening. If ya'll live in areas that are slated as transit corridors, go to the meetings and stress these points - Charlotte should spare no expense in tying the rail system to the road system... even if it means that the transit plan will be more expensive and take longer to build - it'll be worth it in the long run. Eventually the Charlotte area will have similar density to the DC area and the congestion to go with it - an efficient transit system will greatly alleviate commute times and congestion issues that make everyday life a little bit more troublesome.

[orulz]

Of course any outlying station on a commuter rail line (like VRE and MARC in DC) will have a large park and ride lot in order to serve as large of an area as possible. I also believe park and rides are planned at many of the outlying LRT stations as well, but having 300 space lots at every station is not an acceptable solution: when a station is surrounded by a parking lot (or even a deck) you lose a lot of the potential for TOD. A well-designed and useful transit system should cater to all kinds of commuters with a mix of park-and-ride, TOD, and (functional) feeder buses. It's not possible to integrate all three of those elements at every station, but there should be a good mix across the entire system in order to capture as much of the market as possible.

[95-Souf]

It will definitly put Charlotte up there with cites like,... well... Im not going to make any comparisons... but it will be monumental in its growth.

Way to go Charlotte!!....

Its great to see a city that has so much potiential and is putting all of it to use.

With all the projects that are proposed for that area, the beutiful stadium and new arena, the new highway projects, and new development in and around the city,.. its making a statement for its self.

Thats Whats Up !!

[Raintree21]

The Other Argument for Light Rail

If you think Charlotte is spending $427 million on trains just to move people up and down South Boulevard, guess again.

City officials hope the transit system will change the way Charlotte grows, accelerating its transformation from a sprawling collection of suburbs into a series of compact villages along transit lines.

With light rail's opening day still two years away, the city is preparing to rezone hundreds of properties along the 9.6-mile south corridor and kick-start key developments near stations..........

Interactive map of CATS transit station locations

[Raintree21]

I was thinking, just how loud are these light rail trains going to be? The article above has a picture of the 3030 South condos next to the light rail tracks. The walls of these buildings look like they sit maybe 20-30 feet from the tracks. Who in their right mind would want to sit that close to a railroad track? Are the tracks still going to be open to freight? There are quite a few industrial complexes on South Boulevard that use those tracks.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

lightrail is suppose to be quite quiet. I am sure these trains will be as quiet as possible. Nothing around a heavy train you usually hear.

[dubone]

light rail will be much quieter than south boulevard. There are no "explosion-based" engines in the electric trains, and they will use continuously welded tracks to avoid the 'badump-bump' of most trains.

I am glad the obverser is reporting on the positive, fiscally responsible aspects of the light rail.

These transit corridors and the related rezonings will go a LONG way to redeeming charlotte from the image of Charlotte as a string of sprawly suburbs. I am very excited about it. Even though i believe the trains will have a decent amount of riders from park and ride lots at Woodlawn and further south, but development will certainly occur quickly to just past the skaleybark station.

[Raintree21]

So that answers the question about the light rail trains themself, but what about the freight lines? Is that line still going to be open to freight?

[uptownliving]

The light rail trains will make the same amount of noise as 1 Chevy Suburban driving down the road.

One other note: the wheels will be made of a composite plastic which is less noisier than steel wheels.

[monsoon]

So that answers the question about the light rail trains themself, but what about the freight lines?  Is that line still going to be open to freight?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quick Answer. No