Charlotte Residential Tower Rumors

[atlrvr]

I remember there used to be a planned 25 story tower on that site (300 S.Tryon) I hope it's at around 600" so it'll fill in the gap nicely.

That's a bit of a stretch....I think the 475'-500' range is more realistic for the site based on the mix of uses reported for the site....it would still be the tallest tower between BofA Plaza and 1 Wachovia.

I would speculate the Novare towers at the Duke site to add 1000-1200 units. They will be built in phases, and my guess is the first one should be completed late 2009-early 2010.

I think we will hit 15,000 in 2009.....there are a lot of factors that determine Uptown retail and the numbers that are thrown out there 10,000, 12,000 or 15,000 have little meaning upon themselves considering that a typically chain retailer such as B&N wants at least 40,000 people within its trade area.....daytime employment and hotel room counts become important, but most retailers really don't have a standard measure and it is based on a lot more intution than any nominal factor.

[RiverwoodCLT]

orulz

It's especially nice that the center of the boom is actually in the center of Charlotte, too, rather than somewhere else like South Park (which seems to be Charlotte's equivalent of Buckhead.)

They are having a small building boom in South Park area as well with about 7 projects.

[49er]

what current downtowns in the u.s. have 15,000 residents? I'm just wondering for comparision purposes. Its probably a tough stat to come up with, considering geographical differences in calculation.

[cooperdawg]

what current downtowns in the u.s. have 15,000 residents? I'm just wondering for comparision purposes. Its probably a tough stat to come up with, considering geographical differences in calculation.

I recall speaking with Furman two years ago and he was tossing around a number of 12,000 for Uptown to start seeing retail come in, 15,000 should definitely deliver. I believe this is why Levine has a little bounce in his step with moving forward on his land, he's been waiting on one of these benchmarks before unveiling what he's cooking up in first ward.

[49er]

haha, i dont think Levine has ever had a recipe for what he's cooking up on that land. i think its a little of this, a little of that and a whole lotta simmering on the pot

[atlrvr]

So I assume this is the Spectrum Tower....this is the project that I have been looking forward too (and fearing the most)

This will fill in a major gap, but Spectrum has a reputation for being a bit fake stucco happy. The rumor was several months ago, that this project would be about 15 stories of office and then 20 stories of condo on top......I guess we'll see.

I was told again today that the Spectrum's 300 S. Tryon is still basically the same project as rumored. (~35 stories) They will give a 25' strip of land along 3rd to the county to act as a connector for the new 3W Park to Tryon St. The timing for the start of marketing that UrbanCharlotte gave (late summer-fall) was also confirmed.

I forgot to ask about a construction start date, but my guess would be spring of next year.

[carolina_fan]

I would speculate the Novare towers at the Duke site to add 1000-1200 units. They will be built in phases, and my guess is the first one should be completed late 2009-early 2010.

I think we will hit 15,000 in 2009.....

Ok......here's my list.

Vue - 410

EpiCentre - 420

Avenue - 386

TradeMark ~ 160

Courtside - 105

230 S. Tryon ~ 90

Court 6 - 80

1st Row - 82

M Street - 67

Ratcliffe Phase II ~ 55

The Garrison - 39

200 W. 10th ~ 30

This I feel really good about (Through 2008) - 1924 units

I also think something will be done with the Renwick site, as do I think there will be future development on W. Morehead by 2008, adding another 300 units.

So by 2008, I expect about 2200 new units.....

Then, adding 700 a year (slightly decreasing the momentum), add 1,400 more through 2010 for a total of 3,600 units from now to late 2010...

The person:unit ratio uptown is about 1.6......so that adds roughly 5,760 people to the current population of ~10,000. I do count J&W because they are here for over half the year, so add 560 more for CitiView, plus roughly an equal amont in another J&W dorm-like building......

That puts me me just under 17k.

^atlrvr's population prediction for 2010 made 10 months ago. Sounds like we're still pretty much on track.

[UrbanCharlotte]

I'd say it will be a little more than that if everything sells out, as more projects are online than just those. But that sounds pretty good. Wonder what retail we'll get.

[UrbanCharlotte]

I heard today that a "new" condo tower is planned near the bobcats arena, not twelve, not sure if on levine property. Anyone else hear about this? I didn't get a lot of info on size other than compared to courtside, it would be tall. Didn't hear any possible announcements, and it was going through planning. Anyone, maybe atlrvr, hear about this?

[stateman99]

I heard today that a "new" condo tower is planned near the bobcats arena, not twelve, not sure if on levine property. Anyone else hear about this? I didn't get a lot of info on size other than compared to courtside, it would be tall. Didn't hear any possible announcements, and it was going through planning. Anyone, maybe atlrvr, hear about this?

This sounds good, however, I don't want to be a pessimist, but how many announcements can we have at one time. I mean, don't you think we will (or already are) over satturated with new projects.

I hope it's true though.

[dubone]

Well, earlier in this thread or the First Ward thread, Atlrvr mentioned hearing about a new Furman tower project near the Arena. I'm hoping for something on the eastern porkchop or the corner of 7th and Caldwell.

[dubone]

This sounds good, however, I don't want to be a pessimist, but how many announcements can we have at one time. I mean, don't you think we will (or already are) over satturated with new projects.

I hope it's true though.

According to this article: http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/14477816.htm

1000 of the 1300 uptown highrise condo units on the market are under contract. Most of those came on the market in the past year. There are only about 1200 announced highrise units planned so far to come on the market in the next two years. I hardly think that ~100-200 units for another highrise will cause saturation.

[atlrvr]

Yeah....I was told that Furman was looking to do another highrise in 1st Ward. I was speculating that it could be the eastern "chop", but after reading in the CBJ that he was bidding on the 1/3 acre site adjacent to the arena (at Trade and Caldwell), I'm thinking that could be the site. Considering my source on this one, I would think they would be more likely to know about the latter rather than the "chop".

I'm having a tough time determining how high the would/could go on the 1/3 acre. At a base price of $2.1M, they would need at least 80,000 sq. ft. of residential space to justify it......considering the lot size and typical building efficiency, this would be at least 80 unit in 7 stories. There would probably need to be at least 2.5 stories of parking, and .5 stories of retail space, so at a bare minimum this would be 10 stories.....

Whoever the developer is could certainly try to maximize their profit (and the site was open for bid, so the minimum price was likely exceeded) this could go several more stories....15 maybe?

[dubone]

If it is the 1/3 acre site, I wonder if they are able to take advantage of the roof of the staging area for amenities of any sort. It wasn't built to be strong enough for people, but could likely be strengthened. I know when Trammell Crow was looking at that site, they wanted to do something with that roof. But maybe not, Furman hasn't really done pools in his projects, and the arena next door is one heck of an amenity. I wonder if the home owners association will buy seats that can be used by its residents .

[stateman99]

According to this article: http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/14477816.htm

1000 of the 1300 uptown highrise condo units on the market are under contract. Most of those came on the market in the past year. There are only about 1200 announced highrise units planned so far to come on the market in the next two years. I hardly think that ~100-200 units for another highrise will cause saturation.

Well Dubone it looks like i need to read up before some of my posts. haha. That does sound pretty solid to me.

[UrbanCharlotte]

I think it may be a block or two south of the TWELVE site. Supposedly mixed use. A lot of unknowns about this. I think it is someone out of town, actually pretty sure. We'll hear more in a couple months probably. Just a heads up.

[dubone]

Well, that is great news! Maybe we'll get a new Furman tower AND a one by an out of towner. I actually think it might be a good idea to put a condo tower on the 1/4 block at 5th at College, next to the Ritz-Carlton. That is too significant a location to be filled with a surface parking lot.

[stateman99]

Well I guess one of the things said when they wnated to put the Arena up in the location it is, was that it would generate growth in this area. Good to see that it is. Epicentre, Ritz, this condo, courtside, court6 and who knows what else.

[atlrvr]

I would think that the 1/4 block next to the Ritz will eventually be built as Residences at the Ritz. Charlotte is the only North American market that they are entering that they aren't building condos in conjunction with the hotel.....in Philly they are adding a condo tower next to the existing Ritz.

[atlrvr]

Well....after talking to some insiders today.....it appears that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg in regards to proposed condo towers being announced.....I didn't really press for specifics, but I would say that there are at least 25 more towers in the works for Uptown and close in periphary (probably more than that).....and people are getting nervous. The consensus is there is there is no way that Charlotte can support what all is being planned now.....maybe what has already been announced could be.

Furman made a point several months ago that when a 3,000 home community was announced for Cornelius earlier this year, no body batted an eye. While I admire his optimism, and I'm typically optimistic myself, I'm getting a little wary of the increasingly higher share of being purchased by investors.

In order to support this type of urban development, we need to attract LOTS more jobs to Uptown, improve the schools, and implement the streetcar line as soon as possible. We also need to pray for interest rates to remain stable or grow at a rate less than wage growth.

What is everyone's opinion on our ability to absorb this many condos? Does anyone think we are getting close to saturation, in which case we might see NO new proposals for many years. Will gas prices cause people to live downtown, or will companies move from downtown the suburbs to make life easier on the majority of thier employees? Will the city continue to focus its investment on downtown, or is too much "stuff" bad for the actual reisdents of downtown?

[turbocraig]

25?? There's absolutely no way. None. Nada. However, maybe skittishness will lead to developers rushing to get their tower out sooner rather than later in an attempt to capture whatever market truly remains. Maybe we'll see some lower-cost alternatives to the $400K units that seem to be the current rage. I wouldn't worry about too many companies leaving downtown for the burbs due to gas prices. That'd only make sense if all their employees lived in the same suburb, which is doubtful. If anything, fuel costs will continue to draw people to downtown to live and will also make the LRT all the more attractive. And finally, NO, we can't have too much "stuff" downtown! Bring it on!!

[nyxmike]

Hopefully some of them are apartment towers! The condo towers are getting old. A lot more people would live downtown if they could AFFORD it.

But yeah, I think Charlotte can handle most of these proposals (remember, people are moving here all the time, and not all of them want to live in a house with a big yard). However, I don't think every single proposal is going to get built (The Vue must get built though!)

[Dale]

If an appreciable increase in jobs is to accompany the current (and ongoing ?) condo boom, then so much the better for Charlotte. But I don't think the job increase is necessary, so long as the condo boom is suggestive of an historic demographic boom, which I suspect that it is. Downtown's are becoming the 'hip' place to live, even if that entails reverse-commuting.

[AuLukey]

If an appreciable increase in jobs is to accompany the current (and ongoing ?) condo boom, then so much the better for Charlotte. But I don't think the job increase is necessary, so long as the condo boom is suggestive of an historic demographic boom, which I suspect that it is. Downtown's are becoming the 'hip' place to live, even if that entails reverse-commuting.

I agree. I say that, if at least 5 of those those "25" non-public proposed high rises are office towers being built by major corporations and not just investors (i.e. BOA, IBM, etc,) then it is fully feasible to support 20 other condo buildings (pending they aren't all 40 stories.) If corporations build buildings, that is guaranteed jobs. Rather, if an investor builds a building, right off the bat there is going to be an extremely high vacany that wouldn't rationalize building it. I wish some of Charlotte's other major companies would bring some jobs uptown. Duke has long been overdue for a high rise. Anybody know the hold up on that?

[atlrvr]

Oh that 25 number was thinking just residential towers.....after thinking a little harder....I counted about 27 towers (12 stories and higher) that I have heard at least rumblings about (this includes those just outside 277).....three of which would be apartments.

Assuming an average of 250 units per tower....that's about 7,000 unannounced highrise residential units for downtown on top of the 2,350 current highrise units that have been officially announced.......this doesn't include continued low and midrise announcements, plus the who knows how many other residential towers that I haven't caught wind of.

My own intenal estimates think that at buildout, there could be about 22,000-25,000 residential units inside 277.......we have about 5,000 now....at the rate things are planned now, we'll get there pretty quick...but again, I have to believe there will be some slowdown and eventual lull in development......maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong, and we'll become a city where people love to live in highrises like Vancouver, which has almost 400 residential highrises for a metro area similar in size to Charlotte.