Grocery stores in Greater Providence

[foxpointer]

I think the subtext of mandrake's statements is the allegation that property developers assign new or misleading names in an effort to "re-brand" a neighborhood. This is a pretty common argument. There appears to be a heightened sensitivity to neighborhood identity when one perceives their neighborhood (as if a neighborhood name can be copyrighted and exists for their exclsive use only!) as being under attack.

As Greg points out, this specific discussion is made even more complex by the overlay of the Promenade District, which is not a political boundary but more of an invented district, the boundaries of which will differ depending on one's point of view.

[gregw]

"Promenade District" may now be the name that developers like Struever use for that stretch along the river. However, the name is not new and was not invented by developers. It (or at least "Promenade Center") goes back to the late 70s/early 80s and was coined by the the city which was then trying to revive the place as an urban industrial park. There are still some nice looking signs that the city put up years ago along Kinsley and other streets.

The name got used again with Cianci's New Cities proposal and seems to be sticking.

Some people just say Olneyville to refer to the area west of the mall although this is technically incorrect according to city maps. Much of the Promenade District is actually in Valley and Smith Hill. Another name for the area that I've seen, the Woonasquatucket Industrial Corridor, is a definitely a mouthful. My vote is for Promenade District as long as it doesn't get enlarged to refer to half the city like "West Broadway."

[Pseudo_Work]

"Promenade District" may now be the name that developers like Struever use for that stretch along the river. However, the name is not new and was not invented by developers. It (or at least "Promenade Center") goes back to the late 70s/early 80s and was coined by the the city which was then trying to revive the place as an urban industrial park. There are still some nice looking signs that the city put up years ago along Kinsley and other streets.

The name got used again with Cianci's New Cities proposal and seems to be sticking.

Some people just say Olneyville to refer to the area west of the mall although this is technically incorrect according to city maps. Much of the Promenade District is actually in Valley and Smith Hill. Another name for the area that I've seen, the Woonasquatucket Industrial Corridor, is a definitely a mouthful. My vote is for Promenade District as long as it doesn't get enlarged to refer to half the city like "West Broadway."

[misterchlo]

[*]Would you make an effort to shop at Shaw's if it stayed open on a trial basis?

[runawayjim]

this is a queston for jencoleslaw: does the question, "who you consider shopping at shaw's if it stayed open on a trial basis?" and the fact that a shaw's rep will be at this meetin... does this mean there is some chance that shaw's is leaving open the possibility of staying open at eagle square?

[mandrake258]

Who is sponsoring this? The planning committee, city council, or some other organization? Shaws, maybe?

[runawayjim]

Also, I second runawayjim's observation of the Shaw's. I went there on sunday and it was like being on a movie set... empty aisles punctuated by a lone box of tampons or 100 loaves of white bread. really eerie...

[mandrake258]

the worst part about that whole empty store thing is that once the announcement was made, they started actually pulling stock from the shelves rather than continue to serve the neighborhood. so while they're "open" until friday, they actually started closing the day the announcement was made.

[mandrake258]

while i don't disagree with mandrake, i do believe that a flea market would be hardpressed to pay the $20+ per square foot lease that would need to be assumed to take over the shaws space.

[jencoleslaw]

this is a queston for jencoleslaw: does the question, "who you consider shopping at shaw's if it stayed open on a trial basis?" and the fact that a shaw's rep will be at this meetin... does this mean there is some chance that shaw's is leaving open the possibility of staying open at eagle square?

[mandrake258]

Went to this meeting last night. Anyone else on here go? I thought it was very interesting. Some quick notes...

- lots of people seemed to want a farmer's market

* Multiple ppl invoked Quincy Market, Reading Terminal Market, Haymarket as possible models

- most people agreed that whatever goes in there needs to distinguish itself from the considerable competition (e.g. the stop'n'shops, whole foods and the pricerite all nearby)

- a couple ppl said that whatever goes in there needs to help the other businesses in the complex stay open

- Shaw's is looking for someone to buy them out of the 20 years remaining on their lease.

* said lease is for 64,000 sq ft. at somewhere b/t $15-$25 sq ft (details of the lease are confidential).

* whether or not they can find someone who will offer to pay that much remains to be seen. seems like their looking for the highest bidder who will offset their losses on the lease.

* the terms of the lease put all of the control/responsibility of the building into the hands of the leasee. the owner/developer has no say.

* Shaw's doesn't want to split up the space and deal with multiple sub-leases

* the lease covers the entire building as well as all of the parking on that side of the river, minus a little bit of parking that belongs to the blockbuster.

- Ppl disagreed on how useful the shaw's was

* one person (thom deller) said he really relied on it, many others didn't.

* those who didn't preferred to shop more up-market, at the whole foods, or more down-market, at the price rite or both

* but many agreed that the pharmacy was essential nonetheless

- Councilwoman Diruzzo kind of hijacked the meeting at the end and it was embarassing and highly unprofessional, IMO, but also to be expected.

- there was very little dwelling on the past -- i.e. the fort thunder/feldco debaucle.

* seems like the moderator brought up this stuff more than everyone else at the meeting combined, which was weird

- several spanish-speaking individuals who came out were upset to find no translater present

* some people pointed out that this underscored one reason why the shaw's ultimately failed. e.g. shaw's didn't cater to the considerable (possibly majority?) latino community of the neighborhood

* pricerite has spanish-speaking check-out counter workers, shaw's didn't

- DiRuzzo and Bilodeau alleged that a major factors in Shaw's downfall included two buy-outs of the parent company (first to Albertsons and then to Super Value) as well as changes in management at the store itself

- A couple people advocated either getting an RI Foundation Grant or FELDCO and Shaws to fund a feasibility study for an open market in the site

- all-in-all I think that the meeting was pretty civil and productive, except for maybe this one guy who kept interrupting everyone else.

OK, that's about all I can remember. Anyone else?

[edited to soften my language re: my representative in city council. after all, I do want my trash picked up tonight...]

[Recchia]

That Shaws had no spanish speaking employees? Come on now even I could have a checkout conversation in Spanish.

This store must have been doing pretty bad for Shaws to just back out of their lease like this. You'd think that it would be such a hassle to sublease and with the potential for the space to have zero income for a while that they would maybe just scale back the payroll and keep the store open. What if its months before they find a suitable sub-leaser, then they'll really be hurting.

[lauram]

That Shaws had no spanish speaking employees? Come on now even I could have a checkout conversation in Spanish.

This store must have been doing pretty bad for Shaws to just back out of their lease like this. You'd think that it would be such a hassle to sublease and with the potential for the space to have zero income for a while that they would maybe just scale back the payroll and keep the store open. What if its months before they find a suitable sub-leaser, then they'll really be hurting.

[runawayjim]

i was also there. i found diruzzo's comments a bit nuts, but i can understand her frustration.

i agree with her that it's shaw's fault and not the city's or the community's. i noticed the quality decrease in that shaws over time. i also noticed it decrease at all shaws.

i also happen to know that that shaws had plenty of spanish speaking employees as i heard them talking to each other and some customers in spanish. so that is certainly not the reason or even part of the reason they closed.

[mandrake258]

so... rollcall: what do *you* want to see in this space?

[Mothra]

I would like to see a full service grocery store back in this place because it is honestly the only thing that is big enough to go in there.

Perhaps some iteration of a Produce Market (like the one that used to be behind the mall) could work there, but only if the restaurants and institutions would use it.

A community incubator for businesses of some kind. Perhaps catering, or building, design, or a combination of all those things.

A very large community health center, perhaps even connected to a rehab facility, with a conference room for community health meetings and lectures

A large off price retailer, like TJMaxx or Filenes Basement or Marshalls.

Here's what I would not like to see there:

• Farmer's market (too big, and what happens in the winter when Farmers aren't farming?)

• Quincy Market type deal (will just end up flea-markety)

• The space cut up into small spaces

• Flea Market (folks think that's a great use, but do any of those flea marketeers pay taxes of any sort?)

• Any kind of crappy retail that serves no one but the lease holder

• A car dealership

• Anything that degrades the river more than it already does

If a something useful can't manage to get in there, the developer should knock the building down and put a dog park in and deed the property over to the city in return for all the personnel time, TIFs, etc the city has put into this project, only to see it begin to fail.

[runawayjim]

i think a full service grocery store that took special care to make sure they kept quality stuff would work quite well. many people at the meeting said that it's been proven that a grocery store won't work there... but shaws went downhill over time. whatever goes there would have to continue to care. shaws was bought by a company that did not care about quality and only cared about the bottom line.

i wouldn't mind seeing a marshalls or tj maxx either.

if the space were split up, i'd like to see a trader joes and maybe another grocery store that wells the stuff they don't (like frosted mini wheats).

i was very offended by a lot of what was said at the meeting, particularly when people said "it's in olneyville" and made it sound like only the people in olneyville mattered. that shaws was used by the people in federal hill, valley (the neighborhood it actually sat in), smith hill, mount pleasant, and parts of elmhurst and the west end. i was offended when they offered price rite as an alternative saying that people need something to walk to, making it sound like only poor people have to walk or take the bus. i know people who are middle class who choose not to own a car or choose not to use their cars and walk or take the bus (i own a car, but aside from going to work and grocery shopping, i take the bus or walk around the city).

the meeting, to me, sounded very much like a gathering of people who were upset about what had happened 5 years ago with the original buildings rather than think about the future and what it could be now that what's done is done.

[mandrake258]

the meeting, to me, sounded very much like a gathering of people who were upset about what had happened 5 years ago with the original buildings rather than think about the future and what it could be now that what's done is done.

[runawayjim]

what i heard was that people said that a grocery store will never do well there. what i also heard was people say, without using those exact terms, was that the people who matter the most are the non-whites of the neighborhood who don't speak english and that a meeting of people who only speak english would get nothing worthwhile accomplished (i'm white, i speak only english, though i do live in the area and have as much a right to be involved as those who are not white and do not speak english). i also heard people say that this was olneyville, which it is not. it sits in valley on the border of olneyville and federal hill and about a block or 2 from the mount pleasant border.

i heard people say that a grocery store would never prosper because of a successful one (price rite) "1 block away" (quote from the woman who said it). now i don't know what she consider a block, but it's over half a mile away, which is more like 6 or 7 blocks from eagle square. price rite does not serve the needs of all the people of the neighborhood (which is valley, not olneyville), but shaws served my needs (though better fish and produce would have been nice, but i loved their deli with the dietz and watson meats and cheeses and the people who worked at that deli were some of the best grocery store deli workers i've experienced in providence).

i heard people say that a store that had no spanish speaking employees would never last, though i do know for a fact that many of the employees spoke spanish (i heard it myself almost everytime i was in there).

maybe i only heard/saw the negative parts of the meeting, but while people were going on and on about how it'd be great as an open market, they failed to realize that haymarket in boston is only open on the weekends, that quincy market in boston is only busy on the weekends, and that reading terminal in philly is only doing their best business near the beginning of their week when they get their deliveries. a place that can only attract people a few days a week will never last there and will only continue the deterioration of the current businesses that depend on a good anchor store. i go to eagle square somewhat often. i rent videos at blockbuster, i go to dunkin donuts, and i shop at that staples. i went to that shaws at least once a week (usually more becuase i would always forget a few things that i couldn't pick up at the small mini-marts on and near atwells, which i walk to regularly).

i would be thrilled if we got another supermarket in eagle square. it would mean not driving to cranston or branch ave which are both more than a 5 minute drive from federal hill, contrary to what the same woman said at the meeting. maybe she doesn't drive a whole lot, but traffic lights and just general traffic make it more than 5 min. if i made every light and didn't have to deal with other cars, it'd be 5 minutes.

i don't think an open market would last, for the same reasons that people mentioned above... the farmer's market will only be in the summer because, last i checked, you can't grow vegetables during the new england winter. the rest of it would probably end up turning into a flea market.

someone also suggested a flea market in the building. they failed to realize that one already exists just up valley street (about a block away, maybe 2). though when someone reminded that person of this fact, they continued to say that it would still be a good idea.

i don't know what you heard, but i heard a lot of wishful thinking. i don't think that any of this would last, though everyone wants something that would last. i don't think any of this will happen, though it'd probably be better than whatever shaws gets in there to save their bottom line. i hate to be a pessimist, but i just don't have a whole lot of faith that this will turn out that great for the community so long as supervalue has full control over what goes in there. but if they get a supermarket in there, i will be sure to shop there regularly.

now, while i did not hear people using the words exactly, i could detect in the voices a lot of distrust of the city, of shaws, and of feldco. maybe some of it was rightful, but i could also detect a lot of hanging onto the past with what people were saying towards the councilwoman (who defended herself and the city in what i would call a "different" manner that i would have expected). there were a lot of ideas coming out, but even though we heard from the developer that there was nothing we could do and that it would likely be some sort of big box place, no one was willing to toy with that idea. i was mainly there to listen, though i did have to speak up at the end (now you know which guy i was) and find out just how likely it would be for the developer to buy back the lease (which he, in turn, said it wouldn't happen because of the lenders). if that were to happen, that would be the only way the community will have a large enough impact on what happens. unfortunately, that won't be happening, so we should be pointing supervalue in the direction of the types of big boxes we think would or could work there. and as was said previously, i do think a marshalls or tj maxx or another supermarket (again, with the stipulation that they actually care about their store) would be one of the more ideal and likely options.

sometimes it's hard to be realistic, but i think the reality is that something like an open market just won't work in that location unless it can attract people 6 or 7 days a week from about 8 or 9 in the morning until 9 or 10 at night (something someone else mentioned at the meeting). i also am failing to see how many of these suggestions (flea market, open market, etc) would be able to afford the rent (67,000 sq ft x $15-25 per sq ft = $1.005-1.675 million per year).

i have to say that the one comment i was most turned off by was the one by the organizer who had said that the meeting was meant to be for the people living in eagle square and the people living in monohasset mills as they are most directly affected by it. i fail to see how those of us who shopped there regularly are not directly affected by it.

[Mij]

what i heard was that people said that a grocery store will never do well there. what i also heard was people say, without using those exact terms, was that the people who matter the most are the non-whites of the neighborhood who don't speak english and that a meeting of people who only speak english would get nothing worthwhile accomplished (i'm white, i speak only english, though i do live in the area and have as much a right to be involved as those who are not white and do not speak english). i also heard people say that this was olneyville, which it is not. it sits in valley on the border of olneyville and federal hill and about a block or 2 from the mount pleasant border.

i heard people say that a grocery store would never prosper because of a successful one (price rite) "1 block away" (quote from the woman who said it). now i don't know what she consider a block, but it's over half a mile away, which is more like 6 or 7 blocks from eagle square. price rite does not serve the needs of all the people of the neighborhood (which is valley, not olneyville), but shaws served my needs (though better fish and produce would have been nice, but i loved their deli with the dietz and watson meats and cheeses and the people who worked at that deli were some of the best grocery store deli workers i've experienced in providence).

i heard people say that a store that had no spanish speaking employees would never last, though i do know for a fact that many of the employees spoke spanish (i heard it myself almost everytime i was in there).

maybe i only heard/saw the negative parts of the meeting, but while people were going on and on about how it'd be great as an open market, they failed to realize that haymarket in boston is only open on the weekends, that quincy market in boston is only busy on the weekends, and that reading terminal in philly is only doing their best business near the beginning of their week when they get their deliveries. a place that can only attract people a few days a week will never last there and will only continue the deterioration of the current businesses that depend on a good anchor store. i go to eagle square somewhat often. i rent videos at blockbuster, i go to dunkin donuts, and i shop at that staples. i went to that shaws at least once a week (usually more becuase i would always forget a few things that i couldn't pick up at the small mini-marts on and near atwells, which i walk to regularly).

i would be thrilled if we got another supermarket in eagle square. it would mean not driving to cranston or branch ave which are both more than a 5 minute drive from federal hill, contrary to what the same woman said at the meeting. maybe she doesn't drive a whole lot, but traffic lights and just general traffic make it more than 5 min. if i made every light and didn't have to deal with other cars, it'd be 5 minutes.

i don't think an open market would last, for the same reasons that people mentioned above... the farmer's market will only be in the summer because, last i checked, you can't grow vegetables during the new england winter. the rest of it would probably end up turning into a flea market.

someone also suggested a flea market in the building. they failed to realize that one already exists just up valley street (about a block away, maybe 2). though when someone reminded that person of this fact, they continued to say that it would still be a good idea.

i don't know what you heard, but i heard a lot of wishful thinking. i don't think that any of this would last, though everyone wants something that would last. i don't think any of this will happen, though it'd probably be better than whatever shaws gets in there to save their bottom line. i hate to be a pessimist, but i just don't have a whole lot of faith that this will turn out that great for the community so long as supervalue has full control over what goes in there. but if they get a supermarket in there, i will be sure to shop there regularly.

now, while i did not hear people using the words exactly, i could detect in the voices a lot of distrust of the city, of shaws, and of feldco. maybe some of it was rightful, but i could also detect a lot of hanging onto the past with what people were saying towards the councilwoman (who defended herself and the city in what i would call a "different" manner that i would have expected). there were a lot of ideas coming out, but even though we heard from the developer that there was nothing we could do and that it would likely be some sort of big box place, no one was willing to toy with that idea. i was mainly there to listen, though i did have to speak up at the end (now you know which guy i was) and find out just how likely it would be for the developer to buy back the lease (which he, in turn, said it wouldn't happen because of the lenders). if that were to happen, that would be the only way the community will have a large enough impact on what happens. unfortunately, that won't be happening, so we should be pointing supervalue in the direction of the types of big boxes we think would or could work there. and as was said previously, i do think a marshalls or tj maxx or another supermarket (again, with the stipulation that they actually care about their store) would be one of the more ideal and likely options.

sometimes it's hard to be realistic, but i think the reality is that something like an open market just won't work in that location unless it can attract people 6 or 7 days a week from about 8 or 9 in the morning until 9 or 10 at night (something someone else mentioned at the meeting). i also am failing to see how many of these suggestions (flea market, open market, etc) would be able to afford the rent (67,000 sq ft x $15-25 per sq ft = $1.005-1.675 million per year).

i have to say that the one comment i was most turned off by was the one by the organizer who had said that the meeting was meant to be for the people living in eagle square and the people living in monohasset mills as they are most directly affected by it. i fail to see how those of us who shopped there regularly are not directly affected by it.

[mandrake258]

what i heard was that people said that a grocery store will never do well there. what i also heard was people say, without using those exact terms, was that the people who matter the most are the non-whites of the neighborhood who don't speak english and that a meeting of people who only speak english would get nothing worthwhile accomplished

[Mothra]

I think it is important to remember that Providence is small enough to generally serve all populations with sustainable development and businesses that make sense. To assume that the poorest population in the city could somehow support a grocery store with yearly rents in the high six figures (or more, my math is terrible) is/was a pipe dream then, and it is one now. In order for a full service grocery store to be supported ANYWHERE, it needs to be able to draw and cater to a number of different income levels.

It really doesn't serve anyone to set up these racial and income guidelines for who gets served in which neighborhoods. We all know it doesn't work out well for everyone in the wealthy neighborhoods (just look at the incredible lack of affordable housing on the east side) and it certainly doesn't work on the west side where there is, in fact, a very healthy mix of races, nationalities and income levels co-existing relatively well. Certainly some may disagree.

BTW, anyone know where "the city" is on all this? Is anyone even bothering to get involved?

[runawayjim]

my point is that this is not olneyville and that while it might be mostly non-whites in the immediate area, the woman at the meeting tossed out only the demographic information for olneyville not mentioning that neighboring mount pleasant has double the median family income of olneyville.

it would have seemed at the meeting that the store was catering to only the upper middle class (which i am most certainly not a part of). i'd say it catered to everyone, though their prices were a bit high. they certainly had a large selection of ethnic foods, especially rice and other foods catering quite a bit to the hispanic character of the neighborhoods (the other shaws i used to frequent had a much smaller hispanic food section and a larger italian section, probably because it was in north providence). the shaws in eagle square also had more tropical type fruits, found in latin america, than the other shaws.

the quality of the eagle square shaws had decreased over time, though it was still better than the one in north providence when they announced it was closing.

[runawayjim]

the councilwoman from ward 15 was at the meeting, as was thom deller, director of planning. unfortunately, because of the lease, shaws has full control over who gets to sub-let (as shaws still has 20 years left on their lease).

whatever goes there, needs to cater to EVERYONE in the neighborhood, not cater mostly to the lower income people or the non-whites or any certain demographic, but equally to everyone. the neighborhood doesn't belong to a certain demographic, but all of them equally.

[Liamlunchtray]

it would have seemed at the meeting that the store was catering to only the upper middle class (which i am most certainly not a part of). i'd say it catered to everyone, though their prices were a bit high. they certainly had a large selection of ethnic foods, especially rice and other foods catering quite a bit to the hispanic character of the neighborhoods (the other shaws i used to frequent had a much smaller hispanic food section and a larger italian section, probably because it was in north providence). the shaws in eagle square also had more tropical type fruits, found in latin america, than the other shaws.